BMPCC4k ProRes DCi Ambiguity

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RealSting

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BMPCC4k ProRes DCi Ambiguity

PostThu May 24, 2018 1:42 pm

ProRes HQ at 4096x2160. Looking on the Blackmagic website the spec’s appear to suggest that you can shoot ProRes HQ at DCi resolution but also (on the same page) suggests it doesn’t but only UHD. Look at Storage spec then take a look at the opposite column of Recording Format.

I’ve asked this question to Blackmagic who seemed very unsure in my opinion if it could. I suggested it’s maybe an omission. The distributer Holden didn’t know either!

Take a look at the spec below (taken from the specs on the BM website).Image


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Last edited by RealSting on Thu May 24, 2018 1:49 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Kristian Lam

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Re: BMPCC4k ProRes DCi Ambiguity

PostThu May 24, 2018 1:45 pm

Yes. It can shot ProRes in 4K DCI 4096x2160.
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RealSting

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BMPCC4k ProRes DCi Ambiguity

PostThu May 24, 2018 1:50 pm

Kristian Lam wrote:Yes. It can shot ProRes in 4K DCI 4096x2160.


ProRes HQ .. is my question. I already know it can do it ProRes!


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Kristian Lam

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Re: BMPCC4k ProRes DCi Ambiguity

PostThu May 24, 2018 1:53 pm

When I say ProRes, I was referring to all supported flavours, except 444 and 444 XQ.
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RealSting

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Re: BMPCC4k ProRes DCi Ambiguity

PostThu May 24, 2018 1:55 pm

Kristian Lam wrote:When I say ProRes, I was referring to all supported flavours, except 444 and 444 XQ.


I think someone needs to tell Blackmagic or at least the representative I spoke to, along with the distributer!

Thanks.


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Kristian Lam

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Re: BMPCC4k ProRes DCi Ambiguity

PostThu May 24, 2018 2:18 pm

Thanks. We will get that updated.
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Re: BMPCC4k ProRes DCi Ambiguity

PostSat May 26, 2018 1:13 pm

Kristian Lam wrote:When I say ProRes, I was referring to all supported flavours, except 444 and 444 XQ.


Kristian,

Will ProRes 444 and 444 XQ ever be supported in the Pocket4K?
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Re: BMPCC4k ProRes DCi Ambiguity

PostSat May 26, 2018 3:10 pm

On paper, I’d certainly hope that ProRes 444/XQ were supported in the Pocket 4K to enhance its cinematic capabilities. However if the the dynamic range is ‘only’ 13 stops, I wonder if my expectation is misplaced.

Is it fair to say that having two less stops dynamic range than the 4.6K sensor means that limiting the ProRes to 10bit flavours will produce a very similar image to a 12bit ProRes on a 13 stop sensor anyway? Does the lower dynamic range imply lower ProRes bit counts are completely reasonable?




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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: BMPCC4k ProRes DCi Ambiguity

PostSat May 26, 2018 10:15 pm

It may be more related to limited processing power and heating during recording.
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Re: BMPCC4k ProRes DCi Ambiguity

PostSun May 27, 2018 5:46 am

If you’re right Andrew, that might also explain why the USB 3.1 Gen 1 connection was selected. The camera as specified may be pushing its limits as defined.


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Re: BMPCC4k ProRes DCi Ambiguity

PostSun May 27, 2018 3:43 pm

If ProRes 444/XQ is available, I’ll use it. But I am so used to the transcoding workflow (and ACEScct grading) associated with raw, not having the 12bit ProRes options isn’t a deal breaker. To me, the upside of shooting raw and raw 3.1 outweighs the downside of an increased step to generate my Optimized Media. Still hoping to use the Pocket 4K for a late September wedding video and raw will work fine for that.

But I don’t work to anyone’s deadline unlike a professional so I’m free to put in that effort. That’s not to say I don’t get busy! In the first 20 months of operating the URSA Mini, I’ve made 50 videos, mostly for private clients.


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Re: BMPCC4k ProRes DCi Ambiguity

PostSun May 27, 2018 4:56 pm

Nice Rick, 50 videos in a one year timeframe! This beats a lot of pros out there, including me. :roll:
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Re: BMPCC4k ProRes DCi Ambiguity

PostSun May 27, 2018 10:44 pm

Of course several of those are personal shoots testing features of the camera, lenses, filters. Next set of tests will revolve around the SLR Magic 32mm APO.


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Re: BMPCC4k ProRes DCi Ambiguity

PostMon May 28, 2018 3:23 am

Looking forward to seeing this lens in action :mrgreen:
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Re: BMPCC4k ProRes DCi Ambiguity

PostThu Aug 09, 2018 9:23 pm

rick.lang wrote:On paper, I’d certainly hope that ProRes 444/XQ were supported in the Pocket 4K to enhance its cinematic capabilities. However if the the dynamic range is ‘only’ 13 stops, I wonder if my expectation is misplaced.

Is it fair to say that having two less stops dynamic range than the 4.6K sensor means that limiting the ProRes to 10bit flavours will produce a very similar image to a 12bit ProRes on a 13 stop sensor anyway? Does the lower dynamic range imply lower ProRes bit counts are completely reasonable?




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how can 10bit @13 stops be likened to 12 bit at 15 stops latitude? I.e how can the quality be similar? Bitrate relates more directly to colour depth.


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Rakesh Malik

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Re: BMPCC4k ProRes DCi Ambiguity

PostThu Aug 09, 2018 9:49 pm

rick.lang wrote:Is it fair to say that having two less stops dynamic range than the 4.6K sensor means that limiting the ProRes to 10bit flavours will produce a very similar image to a 12bit ProRes on a 13 stop sensor anyway? Does the lower dynamic range imply lower ProRes bit counts are completely reasonable?


The dynamic range and the bit depth aren't related that way.

12 bit ProRes is IMO pointlessly large. If you're going for ProRes, you might as well use 422 HQ; that's going to give you plenty of detail for most situations. In cases where you need more detail than that, you might as well just use raw.

rick.lang wrote:If ProRes 444/XQ is available, I’ll use it. But I am so used to the transcoding workflow (and ACEScct grading) associated with raw, not having the 12bit ProRes options isn’t a deal breaker.


I suspect that 4K cDNG at 4:1 compression would be significantly smaller than ProRes XQ at the same resolution... and might not be much bigger than HD ProRes HQ. :)

ProRes wasn't really made to be super efficient as far as taking up space, it's designed to be computationally lightweight.
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Re: BMPCC4k ProRes DCi Ambiguity

PostFri Aug 10, 2018 6:17 am

Rakesh Malik wrote:I suspect that 4K cDNG at 4:1 compression would be significantly smaller than ProRes XQ at the same resolution... and might not be much bigger than HD ProRes HQ. :)

ProRes wasn't really made to be super efficient as far as taking up space, it's designed to be computationally lightweight.


RAW 4:1 is smaller than Prores HQ, and RAW 3:1 is about the same sizes as prores HQ, only slightly larger. Prores only has the advantage when you shoot at lower resolution since you don't have to window the sensor and fits better to certain workflows.

In extreme scenarios you might see undesirable artifacts in 4:1 RAW, that won't show up in Prores.
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Re: BMPCC4k ProRes DCi Ambiguity

PostFri Aug 10, 2018 7:40 am

Why would anyone shoot ProRes HQ, when you can shoot raw?
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Re: BMPCC4k ProRes DCi Ambiguity

PostFri Aug 10, 2018 12:39 pm

Blackmagic's compressed raw only works in Resolve, for starters.
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Re: BMPCC4k ProRes DCi Ambiguity

PostFri Aug 10, 2018 3:34 pm

Savannah Miller wrote:RAW 4:1 is smaller than Prores HQ, and RAW 3:1 is about the same sizes as prores HQ, only slightly larger. Prores only has the advantage when you shoot at lower resolution since you don't have to window the sensor and fits better to certain workflows.


Yep, that's about the only reason that I ever use ProRes or DNx options on my camera. If I need 4K though, it's actually more efficient to just record 8K with a higher compression ratio, then downscale in post. :)
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BMPCC4k ProRes DCi Ambiguity

PostFri Aug 10, 2018 5:33 pm

Deleted duplicate!
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Re: BMPCC4k ProRes DCi Ambiguity

PostFri Aug 17, 2018 1:01 am

On a related note, will the BMPCC 4K support ProRes HDR? Sounds like it's going to be locked to Apple's FCP for the time being, but I'd love to know if the BMPCC 4K will get a firmware update to support this?
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BMPCC4k ProRes DCi Ambiguity

PostFri Aug 17, 2018 8:46 pm

Savannah Miller wrote:
Rakesh Malik wrote:... ProRes wasn't really made to be super efficient as far as taking up space, it's designed to be computationally lightweight.


... Prores only has the advantage when you shoot at lower resolution since you don't have to window the sensor and fits better to certain workflows...


I shot a performance in ProRes 444 XQ a week ago rather than the raw 3:1 I almost exclusively have been shooting. My workflow on the iMac 2015 always requires me to Optimize Media (to ProRes 422 HQ) and that can take significant time and additional storage. But my once great and now humble iMac doesn’t digest raw well. I was surprised to find that the ProRes 444 XQ required no special treatment and I could edit and colour with it and Deliver decent 2K to the client.

In the BMPCC4K, I may shoot ProRes 422 HQ open gate DCI 4K often, especially if BMD offers DCI 2K as a recording option so I get the benefits of in-camera downscaling. That’s very important. If it’s not there, then presumably I can shoot UHD and downscale to HD in camera just when I need longer recording times.

Not sure which downscaling options the BMPCC4K will have over time. I don’t really want to record raw HD unless I needed a smaller angle of view. Raw open gate or UHD is fine. I’ll likely add the SLR Magic 1.33x-65 Anamorphot adapter to stretch my angle of view a third for UHD/HD recording, 5120x2160/2560x1080.


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BMPCC4k ProRes DCi Ambiguity

PostSat Aug 18, 2018 1:48 am

Derek549 wrote:On a related note, will the BMPCC 4K support ProRes HDR? Sounds like it's going to be locked to Apple's FCP for the time being, but I'd love to know if the BMPCC 4K will get a firmware update to support this?

Derek,
Do you mean ProRes RAW? If so, then BMD has said it is something they are looking at but made no further comments past that. A good indicator might be Resolve gaining support for ProRes RAW.

On the other hand, if you meant HDR, any camera that shoots Log or RAW allows a colorist to pull HDR grades. The BMPCC 4K will capture both of these. In my experience, the less compressed the codec (e.g. 10 bit ProRes) the better; RAW being best. However, it is possible to pull HDR from 8 bit footage but it is not as impressive as 10 bit or more. The extra headroom is what allows you to pull up on those specular highlights (PQ) or expand color tonalities (for which I prefer HLG).

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Re: BMPCC4k ProRes DCi Ambiguity

PostMon Aug 20, 2018 2:59 am

Rakesh Malik wrote:
rick.lang wrote:Is it fair to say that having two less stops dynamic range than the 4.6K sensor means that limiting the ProRes to 10bit flavours will produce a very similar image to a 12bit ProRes on a 13 stop sensor anyway? Does the lower dynamic range imply lower ProRes bit counts are completely reasonable?


The dynamic range and the bit depth aren't related that way.

Right!

One can think of the dynamic range of a scene as a floor and a ceiling, the camera is a ladder, its length is the dynamic range and the bitrate is the number of steps on that ladder.
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Re: BMPCC4k ProRes DCi Ambiguity

PostMon Aug 20, 2018 4:04 pm

Cary Knoop wrote:Right!

One can think of the dynamic range of a scene as a floor and a ceiling, the camera is a ladder, its length is the dynamic range and the bitrate is the number of steps on that ladder.


Good analogy!
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Re: BMPCC4k ProRes DCi Ambiguity

PostMon Aug 20, 2018 4:12 pm

Bitrate? Not the right term. Did you mean bits?


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Re: BMPCC4k ProRes DCi Ambiguity

PostMon Aug 20, 2018 4:32 pm

rick.lang wrote:Bitrate? Not the right term. Did you mean bits?


I think he means bit depth.

From Cambridge in Colour: "In effect, dynamic range can be thought of as the height of a staircase whereas bit depth can be thought of as the number of steps." https://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutor ... -range.htm
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Re: BMPCC4k ProRes DCi Ambiguity

PostMon Aug 20, 2018 4:41 pm

Thanks, Brad; bit depth makes sense. And those steps on the ladder would normally refer to an equal distance on the rungs of the ladder. In terms of BMD log the 12bit log values represent 16 linear steps. But that’s not to be confused with 16 stops or 13 stops or 12 stops of dynamic range.


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Re: BMPCC4k ProRes DCi Ambiguity

PostMon Aug 20, 2018 4:45 pm

Oops, yes bit-depth not bit-rate.

rick.lang wrote:Thanks, Brad; bit depth makes sense. And those steps on the ladder would normally refer to an equal distance on the rungs of the ladder. In terms of BMD log the 12bit log values represent 16 linear steps.

Perceptually, the linear ladder would have very large steps at the bottom and many little steps at the top, effectively wasting a lot of steps at the top. A log ladder would perceptually have plenty of little steps at the bottom but very few at the top.

The most comfortable perceptual ladder would be a PQ ladder. :)
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Rakesh Malik

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Re: BMPCC4k ProRes DCi Ambiguity

PostWed Aug 22, 2018 4:29 pm

rick.lang wrote:Thanks, Brad; bit depth makes sense. And those steps on the ladder would normally refer to an equal distance on the rungs of the ladder. In terms of BMD log the 12bit log values represent 16 linear steps. But that’s not to be confused with 16 stops or 13 stops or 12 stops of dynamic range.


That's it. I missed the fact that Brad mis-typed (or got auto-incorrected ;)) his message, I just read it as "bit depth" because I knew that was what he meant :)

It's also still true that BMD's 12-bit encoding is a representation of 16-bit linear data; it's a form of perceptual compression. It works well, obviously.
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