Pocket 4K and the DJI Ronin S

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Ryan Humphrey

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Pocket 4K and the DJI Ronin S

PostThu Jun 07, 2018 8:12 pm

There's some really great previews of the Ronin S coming out. So far I can't find any information on their compatibility with any Blackmagic cameras, and specifically if there will be any support for the Pocket 4K. Anyone else have any information?

Specifically it would be amazing if the remote start/stop and follow-focus on the handgrip worked.

On a somewhat related note, is there any information on what sort of external control the Pocket 4K will support?
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Tristan Pemberton

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Re: Pocket 4K and the DJI Ronin S

PostThu Jun 07, 2018 10:10 pm

Pocket 4K doesn't have a LANC port.

So unless Ronin-S has a Bluetooth or USB-C link (and BMD allow the camera to be controlled via those protocols) it seems very unlikely.

My guess is the stop/start function will work - if not now, at some point in the future - on the other BMD cameras with a LANC port.
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Ryan Payne

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Re: Pocket 4K and the DJI Ronin S

PostThu Jun 07, 2018 11:42 pm

So far the Ronin is using usb to communicate with the Panasonic and canon cameras so it's entirely possible that Black Magic could work with DJi to make this happen, you would however lose the ability to record via USB-C when using your gimbal for focus control but that 's obvious.
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John Paines

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Re: Pocket 4K and the DJI Ronin S

PostFri Jun 08, 2018 2:57 am

The Ronin-S is heavy compared to other one-handed gimbals, by 2-3 pounds, and it's high load capacity will be wasted on the BMPCC 4K, which is relatively light.

If you add a pound for the lens, the rig would likely be around 7 pounds, which is no joke for one arm, or even two. Maybe not the best choice?
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Savannah Miller

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Re: Pocket 4K and the DJI Ronin S

PostFri Jun 08, 2018 7:50 am

The camera weighs 1.6 lbs, so with a lens like a Veydra or something similar plus a battery, you could probably look at something around the 4-5 lbs range. It's tricky though because the way the Blackmagic is balanced it might actually stress the motors a bit more so the Ronin S looks to be one of the better options. The width is also a huge issue as it doesn't fit on a lot of gimbals without some sort of offset.

I see people using single handed glidecams operating Ursa Mini Pros without a vest and that's around an 8.5lb camera so you need all the weights on the glidecam. That's about 15lbs on one arm.
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carlomacchiavello

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Re: Pocket 4K and the DJI Ronin S

PostFri Jun 08, 2018 8:44 am

Savannah Miller wrote:The camera weighs 1.6 lbs, so with a lens like a Veydra or something similar plus a battery, you could probably look at something around the 4-5 lbs range. It's tricky though because the way the Blackmagic is balanced it might actually stress the motors a bit more so the Ronin S looks to be one of the better options. The width is also a huge issue as it doesn't fit on a lot of gimbals without some sort of offset.

I see people using single handed glidecams operating Ursa Mini Pros without a vest and that's around an 8.5lb camera so you need all the weights on the glidecam. That's about 15lbs on one arm.


ehm... ehm... have you ever tried?
just a simple mirrorless like gh5 is heavy with simple setup and gimbal after few minutes...

try to grab ursaminipro, with fixed lens, without battery (simple xlr cable from battery to camera allow you to be lighter) and try to keep it in front of you for more than 1 minutes without vibration...
then think about add more wieght with a gimbal / glidecam with additional counter balance weight and try to think to run...

i had both, and i can tell you that people that show ump on a one hand gimbal, a red or more are for advertising only, but if you work, also if you are a bodybuilder, it's hard to grab and keep stable a weight with a single arm, without vest and more... if you are stationary may be possible for a small period, but gimbal is to move, run with camera, or i put camera on a shoulder...
without vest you have vertical oscillation during motion, and this increase a lot the weight percivied.

if you search more you can found many people that use vest and arm also on mirrorless and gimbal, or flyvest to reduce weight on arms'operator.
one thing is i can grab and lift, another things is work fluently with it.
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John Paines

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Re: Pocket 4K and the DJI Ronin S

PostFri Jun 08, 2018 11:53 am

Savannah Miller wrote:The camera weighs 1.6 lbs, so with a lens like a Veydra or something similar plus a battery, you could probably look at something around the 4-5 lbs range. It's tricky though because the way the Blackmagic is balanced it might actually stress the motors a bit more so the Ronin S looks to be one of the better options. The width is also a huge issue as it doesn't fit on a lot of gimbals without some sort of offset.

I see people using single handed glidecams operating Ursa Mini Pros without a vest and that's around an 8.5lb camera so you need all the weights on the glidecam. That's about 15lbs on one arm.


I don't know how you arrived at the 4-5 lbs figure (how much did you allow for the gimbal itself?), but since neither product is currently available, I'm not sure why you'd want to speculate on how well this combination may work. Whether the width is a "huge" issue for this or other gimbals remains to be seen.

As for managing 8.5 lbs with one hand or even two -- try it sometime. I think you're forgetting how exhausting gimbal operation is generally, if you expect decent results. 3 pounds and 30 seconds is enough to put most people into a sweat and out of breath.
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Ryan Humphrey

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Re: Pocket 4K and the DJI Ronin S

PostFri Jun 08, 2018 2:26 pm

Gimbals are obviously useful for some people in some situations. Taking that as a given, it's more interesting to discuss if this particular gimbal will have good support for people who are interested in a Pocket 4K. Based on raw stats, I think it could be. The 4K is quite wide (7 inches) which is more than many gimbals will accommodate but the Ronin S should. The Ronin S also has USB control for other cameras, so I was curious if there had been any information on that that others might have seen.
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carlomacchiavello

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Re: Pocket 4K and the DJI Ronin S

PostFri Jun 08, 2018 2:41 pm

Ryan Humphrey wrote: The Ronin S also has USB control for other cameras, so I was curious if there had been any information on that that others might have seen.


i had crane 2, usb control is useful for start stop camera instead to do gimnic to press start on camera, but usually is near to impossible to control gimbal and remote focus at same time. better to have remote focus from second guy, is more confortable and realistic.
usb control is very interesting to grab a crane and by app transform it in a timelapse, motion timelapse, remote head controller and more. you can do with crane and with ronin-s
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Savannah Miller

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Re: Pocket 4K and the DJI Ronin S

PostSat Jun 09, 2018 7:55 am

No I have only experience with smaller steadicams and I have done about 7lbs before maximum. I did see a video of a guy doing almost 15lbs of his Ursa Mini 4.6K and Devin Graham glidecam. He claims he can do 3-4 minutes continuous and he's no bodybuilder. He has quite skinny arms. Sure it's very heavy but you get used to it very quickly. When I first did 7lbs with a glidecam I could only do 30 seconds, but after a while I practiced and got to where I could do 2 or 3 minutes no problems. And I could shoot all day without issues too with proper rest.


4-5 lbs was a rigged out camera with heavier lenses, no stabilizer.

I was randomly at a carnival today and the guy there was using an Ursa Mini 4.6K with a Ronin and he operated for about 10 minutes without rest. No support of any kind.
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carlomacchiavello

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Re: Pocket 4K and the DJI Ronin S

PostSat Jun 09, 2018 8:23 am

Savannah Miller wrote:No I have only experience with smaller steadicams and I have done about 7lbs before maximum. I did see a video of a guy doing almost 15lbs of his Ursa Mini 4.6K and Devin Graham glidecam. He claims he can do 3-4 minutes continuous and he's no bodybuilder. He has quite skinny arms. Sure it's very heavy but you get used to it very quickly. When I first did 7lbs with a glidecam I could only do 30 seconds, but after a while I practiced and got to where I could do 2 or 3 minutes no problems. And I could shoot all day without issues too with proper rest.


4-5 lbs was a rigged out camera with heavier lenses, no stabilizer.

I was randomly at a carnival today and the guy there was using an Ursa Mini 4.6K with a Ronin and he operated for about 10 minutes without rest. No support of any kind.


ronin with dual hand, ronin s come with single arm, dual handle or ring is additional.
ursa + simple lens + small battery + small monitor (you can't have open monitor when you work, change balance too much) is up to 15lbs, then you must add gimbal weight.

recently i shooted a short where there are steady operator with ursa, and more than 4-5 minutes are hard for him, but we shoot all days..
WIth a gimbal i think at end of day you have problem, real problem, may be you are younger then me (45) but keep attention for the future, your shoulder and especially you back will ask to pay later this kind of work, it's important to protect your health.
i usually use barbell of 10kg, since 7 libs on my training and it's hard to think to keep it in front of me for 2-3 minutes fixed, last reps of last series is hard to do.
if someone can use it fluently, i'm happy for him, i think it's hard solution to keep stable on long time shooting.
anyway pocket 4k will be excellent solution with ronin-s, and... today i start to see people that put gimbal on arm vest, the best of two world :-D
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rick.lang

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Pocket 4K and the DJI Ronin S

PostSat Jun 09, 2018 2:24 pm

In a way, you’re both right. Almost anything can be accomplished if the duration is short and the frequency is minimal and that is often the case when there’s one dramatic shot you must get using a stabilizer like a handheld gimbal. If it was a narrative scene, you can make sure the shot is well rehearsed and you only mime the take. When everything is going well, then do a few takes with the actual handheld camera etc.

But if this activity requires working for hours each day for many days going handheld, it has to make sense to protect your muscles, joints, tendons, ligaments, and spine. A vastly different experience if you have a vest and a proper arm regardless of the weight being 2 Kg or 10 Kg.

I don’t have a gimbal setup (yet), but when I do need to move the URSA Mini around much, there might be enough adrenaline flowing to make me feel that I’m used to it and not having any problem, but that night or the next day, I can pay the price. I have such a client shoot near the end of this month and I know I’ll be nearly dead the next day if I don’t pace myself because I won’t have the option of a stabilizer. I may be shooting 4.6K 2.4:1 resolution and that will be my ‘stabilizer’ in post as I deliver HD.


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Robert Rioux

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Re: Pocket 4K and the DJI Ronin S

PostSun Jun 10, 2018 1:47 pm

According to a clip from someone at NAB, the Pocket should weigh about 700g, that's 1.5 pounds.
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rick.lang

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Re: Pocket 4K and the DJI Ronin S

PostSun Jun 10, 2018 2:17 pm

Robert, I recall a couple of people that mentioned 750 grams for the body. About one pound ten ounces. Possibly lighter than my old Nikon F and Canon Rebel XT DSLRs.


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Peter Benson

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Re: Pocket 4K and the DJI Ronin S

PostMon Jun 11, 2018 5:19 pm

To be gratuitous about it, let me just state we need not only
USB-C and
LANC port but also a
Mini USB 3.1 Port
Electronic, continuously variable ND filter setup and
Electronic aperture control, continuously variable for click-less exposure and DOF control
Mid/Side stereo audio recording from built-in 4-mic array,
multichannel recording amongst all audio inputs plus the built-in 4-mic array
BMD designed "SuperSpeedLens"Adaptor that provides 2 full stops of image intensity boost on the BMPCC4K sensor.

All this, in an "upgradeable" uber-venerable Blackmagic Design Pocket Cinema Camera 4K Product kit, ideally, offered upon its official release [Pretty-please?]!

Say so, Gang -- would this not constitute an awesome FEATURE REQUEST for a more versatile, direct-to-external SSD recording+charging and gimbal controller port, if fulfilled?
Ryan Payne wrote:So far the Ronin is using usb to communicate with the Panasonic and canon cameras so it's entirely possible that Black Magic could work with DJi to make this happen, you would however lose the ability to record via USB-C when using your gimbal for focus control but that 's obvious.


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Last edited by Peter Benson on Mon Jun 11, 2018 6:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pocket 4K and the DJI Ronin S

PostMon Jun 11, 2018 6:28 pm

Ridiculous! I am probably going to get slammed for this comment, but the new and previous Pocket csmera is a basic Cinema camera, not a “point and shoot”. Adding all that stuff would make the camera larger and more expensive. Next yiu are going to want continuous auto focus and IBIS (which is not possible with this sensor on a MFT camera)... :roll:

That said, the Micro cameras have a continuous (of sorts) iris setting which works, with a slight delay. But the issue is most auto MFT lenses have a stepping iris, not a smooth continuous iris when in auto mode, one exception is the new Panny Leica 12-60 Zoom, which does have a smooth (no stepping) iris, which is fairly fast. So having this feature is kind of limited in its use anyway.

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Re: Pocket 4K and the DJI Ronin S

PostTue Jun 12, 2018 6:29 pm

Peter, I’m a firm believer in South Pacific’s “If you don’t have a dream, how you gonna have a dream come true?”

However if a dream prevents you from enjoying the opportunities in the waking world, it’s really not a dream, it’s a nightmare.

My dream would be (having the funds to purchase) a lighter camera supporting my lenses with a nice clean native 3200 ISO at 60 fps DCI 4K and large in camera recording of raw images with great Colour to match my URSA Mini 4.6K. Now that’s a dream!


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Re: Pocket 4K and the DJI Ronin S

PostTue Jun 12, 2018 8:48 pm

Sounds like your “dream”camera is coming soon Rick — the new Pocket/Cinema Camera 4K. :!:

Dreams are great, and then there is being somewhat realistic with them as well. I used to dream bout waking up in the morning in bed with a (not to be named) beautiful actress, but that’s not happening :roll:
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rick.lang

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Re: Pocket 4K and the DJI Ronin S

PostWed Jun 13, 2018 6:19 am

Denny, I got dibs on Scarlett and Chloe! Oops hope they aren’t too offended by that remark.
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Tristan Pemberton

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Re: Pocket 4K and the DJI Ronin S

PostWed Jun 13, 2018 8:39 am

Peter Benson wrote:To be gratuitous about it, let me just state we need not only
USB-C and
LANC port but also a
Mini USB 3.1 Port
Electronic, continuously variable ND filter setup and
Electronic aperture control, continuously variable for click-less exposure and DOF control
Mid/Side stereo audio recording from built-in 4-mic array,
multichannel recording amongst all audio inputs plus the built-in 4-mic array
BMD designed "SuperSpeedLens"Adaptor that provides 2 full stops of image intensity boost on the BMPCC4K sensor.

All this, in an "upgradeable" uber-venerable Blackmagic Design Pocket Cinema Camera 4K Product kit, ideally, offered upon its official release [Pretty-please?]!

Say so, Gang -- would this not constitute an awesome FEATURE REQUEST for a more versatile, direct-to-external SSD recording+charging and gimbal controller port, if fulfilled?
Ryan Payne wrote:So far the Ronin is using usb to communicate with the Panasonic and canon cameras so it's entirely possible that Black Magic could work with DJi to make this happen, you would however lose the ability to record via USB-C when using your gimbal for focus control but that 's obvious.


Resolve Studio 14.3...014 | MiniMonitor | DTV Setup 10.9.7 | Micro$haft "Windblows" 8.1 x64 Home | 17" ASUS ROG G751JL, 2.8 GHz Intel i7HQ, 24GB DDR4, 1TB HDD, 500GB EVO 850 SSD, 2GB GTX965M | Mackie MCU Pro | Softube Console 1 Mkii | Contour Designs Shuttle Pro 2

Now: iBuyPower Trace 941 w/ASRock Z370 Pro4-IB mobo w/Ultra M.2 PCIe Gen 3 x4, 8th Gen Core i7 H6, 16 GB 1.2v DDR4 ADATA XPG (16) 8GXB CL 16 16 16. ADATA Ultimate SU650 SSD host to "Micro$haft Windblows" 10 Home x64, pending Resolve Studio 15, Decklink Hyperdeck Studio 4K | Linux on M.2 (not sure the flavor I want) and possible "Windblows" 10 Pro x64 upgr.

Que?

Considering what they are offering at the current price point, this is fantasy. Maybe a LANC connector could be (distantly) realistic. I think that's about it.

But I'm not sure what any of that has to do with the Ronin-S.
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Denny Smith

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Re: Pocket 4K and the DJI Ronin S

PostWed Jun 13, 2018 4:55 pm

Seems to me, since the USB-C can be used for camera control, it has replaced the Lanc port. The Ronin S is using USB-C also for its camera interface.
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Tristan Pemberton

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Re: Pocket 4K and the DJI Ronin S

PostThu Jun 14, 2018 2:03 am

Denny Smith wrote:Seems to me, since the USB-C can be used for camera control, it has replaced the Lanc port. The Ronin S is using USB-C also for its camera interface.
Cheers

Cool. It's interesting seeing USB-C becoming a new type of control interface/protocol. It could open up many possibilities, such as with the Ronin-S. Maybe many other products may follow suite.

However, LANC is still the ubiquitous control protocol and will make a simple stop/start controlling difficult with this camera. This will be especially so if you're using a different gimbal system such as I do with the Letus Helix.

Anyone know of a simple universal camera remote for USB-C enabled cameras?
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Denny Smith

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Re: Pocket 4K and the DJI Ronin S

PostThu Jun 14, 2018 6:39 am

Not yet, but the BM mobile app will start/stop the camera va Bluetooth on your phone/IPad.
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azalace

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Re: Pocket 4K and the DJI Ronin S

PostTue Jun 19, 2018 3:24 pm

Perhaps someone from Black Magic can answer this. Will the new 4K pocket cinema camera have still photo capabilities? I am not seeing this in any of the spec sheets, unless I am just missing it. We use the original pocket cinema cameras when scouting locations for films and a still shot capability is a feature that would really be nice. Granted, we can pull stills from footage but our marketing department wants crisp clear stills to work with so we always have to carry two cameras with us when scouting. It seems to me that adding this feature would be incredibly easy for this camera.

Anyone have any feed back on this?
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Denny Smith

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Re: Pocket 4K and the DJI Ronin S

PostTue Jun 19, 2018 4:27 pm

It will shoot a single frame and save it as a JPEG if the camera is not recording a video
During video recording, it will save the single frame a a video dame capture.
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Denny Smith
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