Page 1 of 2

Bye bye BMCC, welcome Pocket 4K. Now, gimbal...

PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:47 am
by Robert Rioux
Tomorrow I'm going to deliver my BMCC to someone who bought it on eBay. Turns out he lives 10 mins from my house. I loved that camera. We did many projects together and I never, ever regretted buying it. Now it's time to move on and upgrade to the Pocket 4K. For me, the Pocket 4K with a speed booster is the best camera I can imagine. I get the full sensor coverage because of the speed booster. 4K, 60 fps etc. Lets just hope it will be as awesome as it looks like. That being said, I'm also looking for a handheld 3 axis gimbal that I could use for that camera and I was wondering if anyone of you would have a suggestion. I'm not looking for a big thing like a Movi. Something smaller and lighter that I could hold with just one hand. Any suggestions?

Something similar to this.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Zhiyun-Crane-2-3-Axis-Handheld-Gimbal-DSLR-Camera-Gyro-Stablizer-For-Canon-EOS-/162714116844

While waiting for your answers, I'm going to go cry the departure of my BMCC...

Re: Bye bye BMCC, welcome Pocket 4K. Now, gimbal...

PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:51 am
by Uli Plank
I use that Zhiyun Crane and like it a lot. It floats my Sony A7S just fine and I'd expect it to do equally well with the new 'Pocket'.

Re: Bye bye BMCC, welcome Pocket 4K. Now, gimbal...

PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:52 am
by Robert Rioux
That's good to know. I'm not sure the aperture, iso and focus feature will work with the Pocket 4K though.

Re: Bye bye BMCC, welcome Pocket 4K. Now, gimbal...

PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:57 am
by Uli Plank
I never use focus on a gimbal, just enough DoF.
To seriously control focus on a gimbal, you'll need to spend serious cash for a remote-controlled, motorized FF and a much sturdier gimbal. Even if in theory you could get some control for other cameras, like Panasonic, it doesn't work in practice.

Bye bye BMCC, welcome Pocket 4K. Now, gimbal...

PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 1:17 pm
by rick.lang
There is another thread on this topic.
Pocket 4K and the DJI Ronin S
https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?share_ ... are_type=t


I’m considering the DJI Ronin-S.

https://www.dji.com/mobile/ronin-s



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Re: Bye bye BMCC, welcome Pocket 4K. Now, gimbal...

PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 11:52 am
by andyfilmmaker
Zhiyun Crane 2 is great and very popular. However, for a BMPCC, worth having a check if you can still get the Zhiyun Crane V2 (first Zhiyun Crane but the version 2 of it - yep its name is bamboozling). The V2 (older version) is as good as the Zhiyun Crane 2 in my opinion because the main difference in the Zhiyun Crane 2 is the follow focus (which wont work with a BMPCC - if I am not wrong?), but it will be much cheaper.

Re: Bye bye BMCC, welcome Pocket 4K. Now, gimbal...

PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:34 am
by Robert Rioux
I'll check it out Thanks

Re: Bye bye BMCC, welcome Pocket 4K. Now, gimbal...

PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:49 am
by Robert Rioux
Anybody tried gimbals with 45 degrees angles? Looks cool as they don't block the view of the screen. Like this one:

Re: Bye bye BMCC, welcome Pocket 4K. Now, gimbal...

PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:50 am
by Ryan Payne
andyfilmmaker wrote:Zhiyun Crane 2 is great and very popular. However, for a BMPCC, worth having a check if you can still get the Zhiyun Crane V2 (first Zhiyun Crane but the version 2 of it - yep its name is bamboozling). The V2 (older version) is as good as the Zhiyun Crane 2 in my opinion because the main difference in the Zhiyun Crane 2 is the follow focus (which wont work with a BMPCC - if I am not wrong?), but it will be much cheaper.


While it doesn't work directly you can purchase the mechanical unit that works with it. I think it's about 300.

Re: Bye bye BMCC, welcome Pocket 4K. Now, gimbal...

PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:19 am
by Robert Rioux
Very interesting review. Learned a lot:

Re: Bye bye BMCC, welcome Pocket 4K. Now, gimbal...

PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:33 am
by rick.lang
If a picture is worth a thousand words, this reviewer should have included footage illustrating the strengths and weakness.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Re: Bye bye BMCC, welcome Pocket 4K. Now, gimbal...

PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 4:29 am
by Robert Rioux
He did in other videos on his channel. This is a recap of the ones he prefers.

Re: Bye bye BMCC, welcome Pocket 4K. Now, gimbal...

PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 4:56 am
by rick.lang
Thanks, Robert.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Re: Bye bye BMCC, welcome Pocket 4K. Now, gimbal...

PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 8:13 pm
by Que Thompson
I currently have the Letus Helix Jr. It's great, I can set it down and I have no complaints. The only issue is that the Pocket 4k does not have an articulating screen so I'll need to get a small monitor (5" Video Assist?). Otherwise, I'm thinking about the Ronin-S. A monitor and the Ronin-S are going to cost about the same so..... I just don't know.

Re: Bye bye BMCC, welcome Pocket 4K. Now, gimbal...

PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 12:17 am
by Denny Smith
Que, another great small monitor would be the SmallHD Focus, works great with thr Micro camers, will work with the new Pocket 4K.
Cheers

Re: Bye bye BMCC, welcome Pocket 4K. Now, gimbal...

PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 5:07 pm
by Leon Benzakein
rick.lang wrote:There is another thread on this topic.
Pocket 4K and the DJI Ronin S
https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?share_ ... are_type=t


I’m considering the DJI Ronin-S.

https://www.dji.com/mobile/ronin-s



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I would suggest that you do not invest in a gimbal until you have tried using one.
It looks wonderful to use but the actual use of one is a different story.
Especially the single handed ones.
Try holding a brick out with one hand. See how long you can hold that away from your body.
I tried the DJI Ronin-S at CineGear.
It is a wonderful gadget but I could not see myself holding this device for a long period of time.

If you really have to get one, look for one that can work with a ring system.
That can be held with 2 hands.
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/ ... _wcB&smp=y

Re: Bye bye BMCC, welcome Pocket 4K. Now, gimbal...

PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 4:41 am
by rick.lang
Thanks, Leon. I like the idea of the vest and an arm for longer shoots. Even those rigs that suspend the gimbal from overhead might be worth looking into. This isn’t going to happen for me this year due to other commitments. The Pocket4K is light enough that I’d love to be more mobile than when I use the URSA Mini 4.6K that is usually on a tripod.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Re: Bye bye BMCC, welcome Pocket 4K. Now, gimbal...

PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:02 pm
by Leon Benzakein
Que Thompson wrote:I currently have the Letus Helix Jr. It's great, I can set it down and I have no complaints. The only issue is that the Pocket 4k does not have an articulating screen so I'll need to get a small monitor (5" Video Assist?). Otherwise, I'm thinking about the Ronin-S. A monitor and the Ronin-S are going to cost about the same so..... I just don't know.


Hi Que

I had the opportunity to try out the Letus at Cinegear, it was paired with a BMPCC. I was very impressed with it. My only concern was after sales support.
May I ask why you would be thinking of replacing it with a Ronin S?

Re: Bye bye BMCC, welcome Pocket 4K. Now, gimbal...

PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 4:56 pm
by Jim Giberti
I would suggest that you do not invest in a gimbal until you have tried using one.
It looks wonderful to use but the actual use of one is a different story.
Especially the single handed ones.


This is a great addition to the Zhiyun to address that.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/ ... /accessory

Bye bye BMCC, welcome Pocket 4K. Now, gimbal...

PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:24 pm
by rick.lang
Jim, that’s very little cost if that’s all it takes. Still winder how long one could use that without strain. Certainly an improvement but may still be limited to short takes for best results.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Re: Bye bye BMCC, welcome Pocket 4K. Now, gimbal...

PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:12 am
by Matthew Silver
Leon Benzakein wrote:I had the opportunity to try out the Letus at Cinegear, it was paired with a BMPCC. I was very impressed with it. My only concern was after sales support.


Leon,

I have a Letus Helix Jr. and use it with both the Pocket and the BMPC4K and really really like it. And they've been good about support as well, although the only support that I've needed so far was a little guidance in balancing it properly. I like the Helix because of the overall design - very easy to use once balanced. Highly recommended.

Matthew

Re: Bye bye BMCC, welcome Pocket 4K. Now, gimbal...

PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:32 am
by John Paines
rick.lang wrote: Still wonder how long one could use that without strain.


Not very long. I use a one-handed gimbal with both hands/arms, and arms are the least of it. You're walking with your knees bent, back straight, and trying to roll from heel to toe to avoid abrupt footfalls. Try it with no gimbal at all, and see how far you get.

Re: Bye bye BMCC, welcome Pocket 4K. Now, gimbal...

PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:48 am
by rick.lang
Yes, I’ve seen that unnatural walk to minimize the strain on the gimbal motors. It can be successful with practice, but I’m getting the feeling I should leave this to younger and stronger shooters who don’t have to nurse problems with feet, joints, hands, back, etc.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Re: Bye bye BMCC, welcome Pocket 4K. Now, gimbal...

PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:59 am
by John Paines
It's not to save the motors, it's to keep the gimbal from bobbing up and down on every step, as there's no stabilization on that axis, unlike a Steadicam with an arm.

There's a reason all the youtube stuff, including material published by manufacturers, is in slow motion -- it conceals the shortcomings of the operator.

Re: Bye bye BMCC, welcome Pocket 4K. Now, gimbal...

PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:10 am
by rick.lang
John, I did not realize that these handheld gimbals don’t control movement along the Y axis. Of course if the shooter is in natural horizontal motion, there is going to be up/down swings to compensate for at the time of shooting or in post. I had thought the gimbals’ appeal would be it effectively compensated for the shooter’s unintended movement.

Re: Bye bye BMCC, welcome Pocket 4K. Now, gimbal...

PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:34 am
by Uli Plank
By construction gimbals can only compensate rotational movement. That is already quite efficient, since a few centimeters up and down are not as visible as 'panning' the camera inadvertently. But once you get rid of that, you can see the little ups and downs of walking. That can be cured in post if you have some resolution to spare.

But if you put down your heels, it's a little bump every time, which can be visible as a blur even after stabilization. You got to learn how to walk like a dancer. Do you know how much training it takes to become a good Steadicam op?

Re: Bye bye BMCC, welcome Pocket 4K. Now, gimbal...

PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:05 pm
by John Paines
Uli Plank wrote:you can see the little ups and downs of walking. That can be cured in post if you have some resolution to spare.


I've never seen anyone cure this defect in post. How? And with what?

Re: Bye bye BMCC, welcome Pocket 4K. Now, gimbal...

PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:44 pm
by Uli Plank
A good stabilizer, maybe? But that's why I mentioned resolution to spare…

There are better solutions, for sure. Like a vest with a Serene arm. But we are talking a price class far beyond the BMPCC4K then. Got to get the best out of what we have, right?

Re: Bye bye BMCC, welcome Pocket 4K. Now, gimbal...

PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:57 pm
by John Paines
Believe me, I tried. The Resolve classic and current stabilizer won't do a thing for it, and neither does Mercalli. I'm no Fusion expert, but early attempts there also seemed futile. I've seen claims that warp-stabilizer can help, but not from sources which could be described as knowledgeable.

IBIS would probably help, but that won't do anything for BMPCC 4K users.

Re: Bye bye BMCC, welcome Pocket 4K. Now, gimbal...

PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:25 pm
by Leon Benzakein
Matthew Silver wrote:
Leon Benzakein wrote:I had the opportunity to try out the Letus at Cinegear, it was paired with a BMPCC. I was very impressed with it. My only concern was after sales support.


Leon,

I have a Letus Helix Jr. and use it with both the Pocket and the BMPC4K and really really like it. And they've been good about support as well, although the only support that I've needed so far was a little guidance in balancing it properly. I like the Helix because of the overall design - very easy to use once balanced. Highly recommended.

Matthew


Mathew

With the short time I spent with it, I can see why you like using this gimbal.
It certainly deserves more attention.

Re: Bye bye BMCC, welcome Pocket 4K. Now, gimbal...

PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:09 pm
by Leon Benzakein
While at a meet at AbelCine in Burbank I came across this gimbal.

It will be interesting to see if and how well it can work with the BMPCC4K.

https://besteady.eu/

BeSteady1.jpg
BeSteady1.jpg (87.42 KiB) Viewed 2041 times

BeSteady2.jpg
BeSteady2.jpg (85.54 KiB) Viewed 2041 times

Re: Bye bye BMCC, welcome Pocket 4K. Now, gimbal...

PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:51 pm
by Jim Giberti
rick.lang wrote:Jim, that’s very little cost if that’s all it takes. Still winder how long one could use that without strain. Certainly an improvement but may still be limited to short takes for best results.


I picked up a Z for the kit last year just for scenes when tracking shots would be a plus and for quick, no setup overhead "crane" moves (handles work well for that.) The handles are a no-branier/cost addition.

On a given shoot I'll just have the Z sitting on an extra tripod stand, easy to grab for a shot. I always keep a stripped down pocket with a 12mm Rok on one which is a pretty ideal focal length for this.

But yeah, I'm not producing the kind of work that needs a psuedo Steadicam operator. But I have produced a couple of TV spots recently where the camera moved throughout on a Z but again, in short takes.

Re: Bye bye BMCC, welcome Pocket 4K. Now, gimbal...

PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:41 pm
by Craig Marshall
Uli Plank wrote:By construction gimbals can only compensate rotational movement. That is already quite efficient, since a few centimeters up and down are not as visible as 'panning' the camera inadvertently. But once you get rid of that, you can see the little ups and downs of walking. That can be cured in post if you have some resolution to spare.

But if you put down your heels, it's a little bump every time, which can be visible as a blur even after stabilization. You got to learn how to walk like a dancer. Do you know how much training it takes to become a good Steadicam op?


I learned how to do that with a 20Kg Betacam balanced on my shoulder back in the late 80s. Kids today...

Re: Bye bye BMCC, welcome Pocket 4K. Now, gimbal...

PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:40 am
by Denny Smith
You and me both Craig, those were the days, along with dragging a UMatic recorder around on one shoulder and the camera on another.
Cheers

Re: Bye bye BMCC, welcome Pocket 4K. Now, gimbal...

PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:44 am
by rick.lang
Thanks, Jim. I’d expect it to work well with two handles for short takes after mastering the ‘walk’ and that would be a useful skill to learn.

Craig, in the mid-60s in high school, I’d walk with 87.5 lb blocks on my shoulder for blocklayers for eight hours a day. Killed me every night!

Now nobody lays blocks, they just pour concrete from trucks that can shoot concrete a couple of hundred feet and carrying my rigged URSA Mini might kill me after a couple of hours. Time takes its toll. I’d appreciate learning to ‘walk’ the lighter Pocket4K with lighter rigging for a couple of hours.

Re: Bye bye BMCC, welcome Pocket 4K. Now, gimbal...

PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:50 am
by Uli Plank
I'm with you, Rick. I'm nearly your age, I suppose, and I could call myself still a well-trained guy. But holding such a rig for hours on stretched arms is definitely not my thing any more.

But doing that dancers walk (bent knees and heels in the air) puts back some tension into my legs and actually is keeping bumps away from my joints, which benefits them too, not only the shots.

Re: Bye bye BMCC, welcome Pocket 4K. Now, gimbal...

PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:57 am
by rick.lang
Good to know; thanks, Uli.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Re: Bye bye BMCC, welcome Pocket 4K. Now, gimbal...

PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 12:35 pm
by Myron Davis
I have the Ronin M and I have squeezed my BMPC 4k in it and got the job done. I was hoping to add the Pocket Camera 4k to my arsenal in order to have a smaller camera on the Ronin but the Pocket Cam 4k width is 7in. Ronin max with is just under 7...

That makes me sad :(

Re: Bye bye BMCC, welcome Pocket 4K. Now, gimbal...

PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:27 pm
by rick.lang
Myron, we feel your pain, but are you planning to purchase the Pocket4K regardless? The Ronin S with dual handles hopefully won’t break the bank. Would you retire the BMPC4K?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Re: Bye bye BMCC, welcome Pocket 4K. Now, gimbal...

PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:21 pm
by Jim Giberti
Denny Smith wrote:You and me both Craig, those were the days, along with dragging a UMatic recorder around on one shoulder and the camera on another.
Cheers


Okay Denny, I'll see your UMatic and raise you ski slopes.
We've always done a lot of work in the ski industry, winter Olympics and such.
You've brought memories of my team doing just that, often backwards on race courses and off-piste.

Re: Bye bye BMCC, welcome Pocket 4K. Now, gimbal...

PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:26 pm
by rick.lang
Wait for it... someone here must have tried that too except backwards on water skis!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Re: Bye bye BMCC, welcome Pocket 4K. Now, gimbal...

PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:48 pm
by Rakesh Malik
Uli Plank wrote:I'm with you, Rick. I'm nearly your age, I suppose, and I could call myself still a well-trained guy. But holding such a rig for hours on stretched arms is definitely not my thing any more.


Practice Goju-Ryu.

But doing that dancers walk (bent knees and heels in the air) puts back some tension into my legs and actually is keeping bumps away from my joints, which benefits them too, not only the shots.


Fun quirk/fringe benefit of learning to walk Goju style... it teaches you to move without letting your core move up and down or side to side (or even sway), and also to hold your arms such that you're supporting their weight mainly with your bones instead of your muscles, so you can last longer.

I was a bit surprised to discover that it's nearly the same way that you're supposed to walk with a Steadicam (hence also a gimbal for those who think about it), and it helps you keep your traction when you're climbing mountains.

:idea: :idea: :idea:

Re: Bye bye BMCC, welcome Pocket 4K. Now, gimbal...

PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:03 pm
by Jim Giberti
Well I'm the creative director but often behind a camera by choice and necessity.
Somewhere there's a picture of my leaning off the top of the 120 meter ski jump at Lake Placid with a big ass Sony because the crew had issues with heights.

When it comes to challenging shoots these days, I'm the guy with the small camera on a monopod or a Pocket on the gimbal.

I'll go back to the pocket as the ideal gimbal camera. If it's a cost issue, you'll be able to get one for "pocket change" (yuk, yuk) in a couple of months. With any number of small, light 12-17mm MFT lenses available, it makes an extremely light gimbal setup. And if you're gimballing like us - no focus pulling, f/4-5.6 for consistent focus, it works great and the Pocket image will hold up/cut in for a long while to come.

Re: Bye bye BMCC, welcome Pocket 4K. Now, gimbal...

PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:13 pm
by Myron Davis
rick.lang wrote:Myron, we feel your pain, but are you planning to purchase the Pocket4K regardless? The Ronin S with dual handles hopefully won’t break the bank. Would you retire the BMPC4K?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Hi Rick. I love the images I get from Production Camera and have in the last 4 years, built up the necessary peripherals to "complete" the camera package. So, for now my plan is to keep it as my CAM A and the Pocket will be CAM B and gimbal CAM.

I'm contemplating which should be my next (small) camera. So many choices! How ever I am infatuated with the BM color science. Nothing compares (in the price range).

Bye bye BMCC, welcome Pocket 4K. Now, gimbal...

PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:36 pm
by rick.lang
We know what you mean about the images. Still we need to wait about two more months to see the Pocket4K images and perhaps a short illustrating intercutting clips from some of the other cameras.

My principal peripherals are the SLR Magic APO PL primes and the screw-on filters I use. All good to go. Even the Bright Tangerine Misfit Atom clamp-on matte box could work.

But I’ll miss having that Sony VCT-14 quick release plate that’s married to my tripod. Maybe I’ll try a monopod for the camera but I am concerned about the total weight I’m hanging off that mFT mount on the camera. So I may need to support the weight by adding a cage and plate and rails. I wonder if BMD or others have an opinion on that or how much weight the lens mount will bear?

The camera and shotgun mic setup certainly weighs less than my lenses and filters. So maybe I don’t hold onto the camera but grip the lens instead. No weak mFT mount concerns then, but presents some operational challenges.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Re: Bye bye BMCC, welcome Pocket 4K. Now, gimbal...

PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:13 pm
by Denny Smith
Rick, rule of thumb for MFT mounts is 2lbs max for an unsupported lens. That said, I would support any lens heavier than 1.5 lbs, especially if it is more than 6” long. On the AF100, Barry Green, and others were recommending lens support for the Zeiss CP lenses, which are about the same size and weight as your APOs.

If you are going to add a Speed Booster, I would use additional lens support under your SLR Magic APOs, all you need is a rail baseplate under the camera and get the rail bracket for yiur Misfit Matre Box, to support the end of the lens. I use the Misfit mounted to the rails to support the end of my 18-50 PL Zoom, works great. ;)
Cheers

Bye bye BMCC, welcome Pocket 4K. Now, gimbal...

PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:26 pm
by rick.lang
With a rail baseplate and either the lens support I have or the Misfit Atom rail support I have, then I’m set. Have to look at rail baseplates then. Thanks, Denny.

Costs more than the camera to shoulder mount:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/754015-REG

Or something like this but designed for the Pocket4K:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1339078-REG


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Re: Bye bye BMCC, welcome Pocket 4K. Now, gimbal...

PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:43 am
by Denny Smith
I think the latter Moviecam set up would be better. Also look at the Wooden Camera setups for the GH5.
Cheers.

Re: Bye bye BMCC, welcome Pocket 4K. Now, gimbal...

PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:13 am
by rick.lang
Hope to see some kits designed for the Pocket4K in September.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Re: Bye bye BMCC, welcome Pocket 4K. Now, gimbal...

PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:42 am
by Denny Smith
Yes, me too Rick.
Cheers