Blackmagic Forum

why is the app only for iPad? and when is color 4 releasing?

Would BMD Bluetooth Control+ for the iPhone be of use to you? $6.99.


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I suspect Colour 4 will be released for Resolve 15 about the same time as the Pocket 4K although not sure how many cameras will get it initially.


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rick.lang wrote:I suspect Colour 4 will be released for Resolve 15 about the same time as the Pocket 4K although not sure how many cameras will get it initially.

I know John Brawley shared some frames shot with Color 4 on Facebook a week or two ago and said he shot with the URSA Mini Pro. So URSA Mini Pro and URSA Mini 4.6K are going to get Color 4. Best guess still remains around the time the Pocket 4K is released is when it will hit. However, Pocket 4K may release and it may be a month or two before the URSA Minis get it. Although, if John is beta testing it on the URSA Mini maybe it will be released at the same time.

One thing is certain, I'm loving the idea of any small improvement to color science.

I think BM is working to get the new Pocket 4K and the Ursa Minis to match color science wise, so the Pocket can be a B Cam. They hVd them both using the same menu interface. This is very good news for Mini users!
Cheers

Tim what did you think about the frames you saw?

Any link to the samples John shared?


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The post is from June 4, and this is the best I can do for a link: https://www.facebook.com/groups/3584238 ... %20Brawley

I thought the frames looked awesome! "Absolutely fantastic!" is what I commented on the post.

Thanks.


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That's great to hear. I mentioned in another thread that if they can get the highlight roll off similar to that of the Alexa, no one would be able to compete with blackmagic in this price category for cameras

Donnell Henry wrote:That's great to hear. I mentioned in another thread that if they can get the highlight roll off similar to that of the Alexa, no one would be able to compete with blackmagic in this price category for cameras

At this price point no one competes with Blackmagic already.

At this point I don’t want more resolution in the next URSA Mini designed camera. I want dual ISO and any little bit more dynamic range we can squeeze. Maybe with a global shutter if possible.

I just had someone who runs one of the top post houses in Tampa tell me he doesn’t give an F about 8K since most of his television projects are still only 1080 HD. 4K is ultimately all we need for final resolution output.

So keep 4.6K resolution and get those dual ISO settings plus global shutter at 15-stops-plus dynamic range… sold.


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Those 4.6K designs are done. They might cut them up or otherwise repurpose them, but the fact that the BMPCC4K sensor comes from Sony means that they’re not standing pat with that 4.6K design that certainly produces a beautiful image but failed to deliver all its intended features, primarily the user switchable shutter.

I’m sure BMD is moving on although it could be more than a year away for a 6K camera designed to deliver 4K. That camera may have a similar size photosite as the 4.6K camera, but the circuit design will be different and the photosensitive area will be larger. It’s not needed today but there may be a day when it has advantages and will inevitably become a new king of the hill.

When that happens, there will be a lot of Super35 lenses left behind so that will be the gamble that might slow the development and adoption of a larger than Super35 sensor. Of course Super35 lenses would still be useful shooting 4K in a sensor window.


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timbutt2 wrote:

Donnell Henry wrote:That's great to hear. I mentioned in another thread that if they can get the highlight roll off similar to that of the Alexa, no one would be able to compete with blackmagic in this price category for cameras

At this price point no one competes with Blackmagic already.

At this point I don’t want more resolution in the next URSA Mini designed camera. I want dual ISO and any little bit more dynamic range we can squeeze. Maybe with a global shutter if possible.

I just had someone who runs one of the top post houses in Tampa tell me he doesn’t give an F about 8K since most of his television projects are still only 1080 HD. 4K is ultimately all we need for final resolution output.

So keep 4.6K resolution and get those dual ISO settings plus global shutter at 15-stops-plus dynamic range… sold.


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I Agree!!!

Just slightly off topic here, Rick can you explain to me what is the fascination with full frame ..it seems a lot of companies are heading in this direction. What are benefits of larger sensors/full frame in cinematography in comparison to super 35. Are there technical advantages or is it purely aesthetic. Curious to hear your take on this.

Donnell, as I mentioned the 6K sensor BMD might consider developing would be useful to produce a better 4K deliverable, either in camera or in post. One advantage of going 6K could be that wider angle of view at the cost of less depth of field. I don’t see BMD jumping on the 8K bandwagon in the next few years as I imagine 4K deliverables will continue to gain popularity. All the truly useful things like squeezing out a little more dynamic range or dual ISO or global shutter are much more important to BMD.

As for 8K, Steve Jobs might describe that as “a bag of hurt.” Japan and South Korea are leading the charge to 8K for broadcast. I think it’s way premature but that doesn’t stop others from saying MeToo! I’m not interested in it in any practical sense.


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I am with Rick on this one.
I do not think Full Frame vs S35 is going to make much of a difference in the projection at average theatres, except for something lik IMax, where the bigger screen and larger format (currently 60-70mm) make sense. For everything else, S35 I’d fine, and going to FF just adds cost to the camera (larger sensors are more expensive, along with larger cooling), to the lenses which require more glass, so they become heavier, etc.
cheers

Thank you guys ..I was curious to know what other filmmakers personal opinion was on the matter of full frame sensors/glass for this new wave of camera tech. And I agree with both of you guys. 6k would be a nice sweet spot for 4K deliverables, along with better dynamic range and higher cleaner ISO. I’m also seeing an anamorphic wave coming in as well. I’m definitely not sold on the full frame. Ok back on topic.

Donnell Henry wrote:6k would be a nice sweet spot for 4K deliverables, along with better dynamic range and higher cleaner ISO.

I'm certainly no expert in sensor design, but I've seen it stated elsewhere by those with far more knowledge than myself (and forgive me here as I'm about to state my limited understand of things that are likely vastly more complicated) that there are inherent trade offs between the size of a photosite and dynamic range + ISO. The more photosites that get packed into a s35 sensor, the smaller the size of each photosite, the less light each photosite can gather, which means increased noise and lower total dynamic range. This is why, for example, the Sony a7s has a lower megapixel count than the Sony A7r, but it has higher native ISO and better dynamic range. Same story with the s35 Red Gemini verses the s35 Red Helium. Gemini has lower K count, which means larger photosites that provide the benefit of lower noise at higher ISO (this recent video comparison by Vincent Laforet is worth viewing: ) And when Arri finally released a their latest camera with a 4K+ sensor, that sensor is larger than s35. In order to maintain the lovely image that the Alexa is known for, Arri had to increase the sensor size to be able to increase the K count without compromise.
Based on all that, it would seem safe to logically conclude that if BMD were to produce a 6K s35 sensor, they would face the same set of trade offs. Or, perhaps there are technologies on the way that will be able to get around those limits.

Anyway... back on the thread topic. Color 4 looks absolutely great! Can't wait for it to be released on Ursa Mini Pro and Ursa Mini 4.6K

Thanks for the post Jamie ..what you’re saying makes sense to me. I think the biggest road block for me would be to re-invest into this full frame wave ..new lenses especially. Is this where cinema is going in the foreseeable future? Also Jamie where can I see those frames JB Posted. I signed up on Facebook for the BM group, following the link Tim posted above.I haven’t been accepted yet..so I can’t view the frames JB posted.

Yes, the Sony MFT sensor being used in the GH5s and Pocket 4K, as fewer, but larger photosites, and a lower K found to match the resolution to the sensor size. I think this is the key, having just the right number of Ks needed for 4 or 6K resolution, and not more, like the GH5 or Sony A r7 has. The trade off, is lower K count equals slightly lower detail resolution.
Cheers

Full Frame vs S35 - for me, I prefer FF, but only because I feel like it is a slightly different aesthetic that I prefer. There's nothing wrong with S35, or MFT. But I did hear that the new Avatar sequels are all going to be shot on the Sony VENICE, a FF 6k camera. Does that really matter on a mostly cgi film? In my opinion, not really, but I have been very impressed with the VENICE footage that has been released so far.

Donnell Henry wrote:Thank you guys ....
I’m also seeing an anamorphic wave coming in as well. I’m definitely not sold on the full frame. Ok back on topic.

I certainly can’t manage anamorphic lenses, but SLR Magic now has an Anamorphot 65 1.33x Adapter as a 82mm screw-on which works with a compatible lens with up to a 65mm front element and a 30mm focal length or longer. It will pair well with my SLR Magic 32, 50, 85mm APO lenses. It will vignette with my 25mm APO. Until I try it, I won’t know if it would be useful in a sensor window.

If BMD made a 6K sensor based on the photosite design in the 4.6K sensor, the sensor would be nearly as large as ‘full frame’ 135 film stills. If they used the Sony sensor in the BMPCC4K, the sensor would be similar to the size of APS-H.

“Size matters, but it’s how use use it that counts.”

In other words it’s very important how much of the photosite dimensions are actually photosensitive and how much area is for other circuits. The ideal would be a completely photosensitive area with all other circuits layered below. Or even multiple layers of sensitivity. That will give you a maximum electron well. Like Jamie mentioned, it’s complicated with other factors beyond my level of understanding. Other materials might also make a difference.


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Excellent point Ric, the AF100MFT sensor was a MOS sensor, with twice as many active photosites, with its circuits layered behind, than the still camera MFT sensors had, with an active area of 17.8x10mm, giving a higher res looking image than you would expect from a HD sensor.
Cheers