Will the Micro Cinema Camera have a 4K version ?

Hello,

I don't know if they are some blackmagic operational designers here.
After investigating these last days among BMMCC users, I've determined that they (and also me) don't necessary like the DSLR form factor of the BMPCC4K.
Plus, the BMMCC expansion port will be terribly missing on the BMPCC4K.

If you are a user, do you believe we will have a BMMCC4K (with the same 4/3 sensor) in a close future ?
If you are a Blackmagic designer, could you tell us if it's something planned for the future?

I know a lot of people that like the DSLR-style, and the USB-C port is, in my opinion, much more flexible (when they release a software developer kit, which I think they said they will do).

I like the form factor, but I know that not everyone does.

I don't think you'll get an official answer, especially since they are probably already in development of cameras that won't be out for three years, but I could be wrong.

Negens, the Micro Cinema camera 4K version is the Micro Studio Camera, which needs an external recorder like the Video Assist, Atomos or Video Devices PixE Monitor/recorder.

When developing an update of the BMPCC (same sensor as the Micro Cinema camera), BM has previously stated they have not found a suitable S16 size 4K sensor that has the dynamic range and organic look the BM Cinema cameras are known for. The 4K sensor in the Micro Studio csmera was the closest, but has about 1.5 to 2 stops less dynamic range. The Micro Cinema camera improved on the BMPCC sensor output with a newer and better video processor and improved cooling to squeeze 60 fps out of it.

The S16 4K sensor in the Micro Studio has been improved and put into the new Ursa Broadcast camera, adding a BM Raw and Film Log recording, using the new Ver 4 color processing and added Entended Video for a “ready to use” file with better DR than Rec708 video in the Micro Studio.

So, I would say there will probably not be an update of the Micro Cinema camera, which has replaced the original Pocket Camera in the line up, with the addition of the new Pocket 4K Camera.

Since no S16 4K sensors that suited BM was available, BM chose to up scale the camera into a full MFT format, using thr new Sony sensor, and making it a replacement for both the Pocket camera and original BMCC, which it’s design mirrors very closely. While it looks like a DSLR design, it has several noticeable differences, it is a little larger and lacks the prism hump, mirrors and internal mechanical shutter found in DSLRs. It is a pure Cinema camera in its design concept, with gimbal mounting in mind, keeping the weight down.
Cheers

To me, the micro studio is not a 4K cinema camera. It's a totally different camera with other purposes and less DR.
The BMPCC4K has a form factor making it less practical to rig (IMHO, of course).

I still hope for a BMMCC 4K using the same sensor as the BMPCC4K, the DB expansion port of the original BMMCC and maybe a CFAST card recorder included.

If it wasn't for the color science and the codecs, I would go to the Z CAM E2, but they are not yet at this point (and it's expensive for a camera that only shoot in h.265 4:2:0 at 8 bits , or h.264 4:2:2 10 bits).

With the BMMCC form factor, I can choose the size and orientation of the screen. I can put a screen in the foot of a mini steadicam-like, on the magic arm of my motorized gimbal, and I'm really fond of the DB expansion port which is very useful !
I could imagine the impact on the market that could have a BMMCC4K using a S35 or full frame sensor ! The perfect small lightweight modular cinema camera ! The absolute dream !

The BMPCC4K seems to be an answer to the GH5 who is a best seller on amateur filmmakers, and the BMPCC4K will surely be a best seller for BMD too. But it doesn't have this so nice and useful bmmcc modular form factor.

Agreed, but the size for the MFT 4K sensor in a Micro Cinema Camera formfactor would need to be a little larger, same shape to accommodate thr additional cooling and the larger video processor the larger sensor would require. Keeping the SBus connection and not having a built in monitor, but adding a Din SDI connector found in the Micro Studio, and the Mini XLR mic connection.
Cheers

Negens. I too would like a smaller camera, with descent IO (what is not realised, is that slow USB 3 port is there to be used for other things too, and it won't be as low tech to make controls for, except you can use a existing controller interface chip that has break out signals, like a keyboard or game controller. But then his dies running a USB 2 or 1.1 device signal at the same time as a usb3 drive go?).

The chip in the micro studio was an older chip not as good. Simply going to the latest recent 1 inch chip from that supplier, or Sony, would get you in the 15 stop territory. However, the color filter makes a big difference to colour science, and a custom filter cost a lot to make. You notice some ceras are well saturated, the old pocket is not
I don't know precisely why, but industrial camera color filters can be different, and a Sony may not offer a standard part with a filter comparable to the old pocket (requiring a significant cost to get redone, if allowed). The filter shapes the light that the sensor gets and responds too.

So, I saw some cheap gadget with HDMI 2 and there is a USB 3.2 with descent data rates. I would like to see those on a micro cinema, even on a 8k version (for those that know, that's doable).

I would like to see those on a micro cinema, even on a 8k version (for those that know, that's doable).

Yes, but that would cost a lot.
The AMS (Previously CMOSIS) 8K sensor is very expensive. It would need an expensive or two parallel expensive FPGAs to treat the datas. Without considering the memory management.

And we must consider that most of viewers still are on 1080p televisions, monitors, tablets...


PS : I've just seen aht AMS is an Australian company . Hey blackmagic design, there is a partnership to explore here !

That company pricing is irrelevant, as they have limited production runs, high support costs and likely a hefty premium as the top product in their market. Take a $10 camera and ask that company to produce a version of it for their client base, and it might suddenly it might be $300.

If you want realistic pricing with a good profit margin, look at the old 32mp plus Nokia phones. An image good enough to film with. Now look at the company that makes chipset technology for old gopros, those $30 fhd video cameras (I have one) and professional cameras, and get their 8k drone/action can ready 8k video cameras chip. Works only a couple of watts full tilt (or was that around 1 watt) from beginning of last year.

There is a reason low volume camera companies use hot expensive FPGA, they are cheap compared to paying $10million plus manufacture for a custom design like the one mentioned, that did it all in under 10 watts, maybe even 2 watts, uncompressed maybe even under 1 watt, plus x watts for a low heat sensor, for an all under 10 watt camera (even under 5 watts). Unless you can line up Aptina technology, or other low powered high quality, for your sensor, you are using high heat and energy hungry sensors. These are the actual reasons that a few manufactures have hot expensive cameras, not because they are somehow the best and set the benchmark for everybody else to obtain to.

As somebody who does know, the realistic pricing for a mass market 8k cameras head is probably less than $100 uncompressed. But as there is not going be a mass market uncompressed, you are adding $50 - hundreds maybe to do either consumer or pro compression well. But as a consumer you might be talking about under $500-$200 if the chip price drops (realise that existing surround cameras with many sensors handle 8k like ability), but as a pro with a fraction of the sales the price is likely going be $1000-$2000). The, relatively, very expensive zcam E2, does 4kp120, which is 8kp30 datarate, but I suspect if it is the chip set I'm thinking, it could be programmed to do raw. . These are the sort of figures you could see. So, yeah, if they can grab a good price on the parts, they could to it. As an uncompressed micro studio they are more likely to do with a FPGA and cost more.

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Well the only useable new 4K Cinema type IQ sensor available is the new Fairchild MFT sensor, so if you want S16 4K, your options are the Studio Micro Camera 4K or a Ursa Broadcast 4K, both are S16/1-Michael sensor. As for a new small (Micro Cinema) Camera replacement, it will have to be slightly larger, using the new Fairchild MFT 4K sensor, to keep the same IQ as the Micro Cinema camera has.

BM looked long and hard for a suitable new 4K/UHD S16 sensor with the same or similar IQ to the existing S16 (Fairchild) Cinema sensor, and nothing was found. That is why the new Pocket 4K is a MFT sensor. At least they kept the MFT mount. Perhaps the new MFT Micro Cinema can be kept in a similar square form factor, and maintain the SBus features in a new version. A S16 window mode could be added to maintain compatibility with existing S16 lenses.
Cheers

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No worries, we may get a new camera with the new MFT Fairchild sensor, at least I hope so.
Cheers

New MTF Fairchild sensor, please tell Denny?

Better MFT and 1 inch Sony sensors should he out of embargo by now. The existing 4k mtf didn't do it for me. I've seen stuff from probably latter edition of Sony technology I liked better, but a Fairchild or Alexa look across the luminance range is what we are looking for.

BTW, read that the start of visual intra scene dynamic range is around the Arri, which explains why it starts looking good, because the eye accepts that DR look as within normal, but those extra couple stops above it are cream on the cake as it more fully fills the visual systems intra scene dynamic range ability (maybe by adaption, I forget, the eye flicks around like ten times a second taking samples of detail, do is not rooted on one area of dynamic range).

Wayne, this: https://www.fairchildimaging.com/produc ... rs/mst4323
Cheers

Actually that 4K MFT Fairchild sensor was here and there for many years. It was not visible on the main page but i saw it in some lists and docs. It seems they just can't start batch manufacture it in time or expect some other tech problems with it so it was delayed for years. Also there are rumors that this sensor was ordered by BM for new camera (Probably for P4K) but due some reasons they move to Sony sensor. I'll be really happy if they put that sensor to future Micro4K. Sure 4K cooling needs slightly larger body size but same time it will allow more freedom for buttons and controls and Sony battery will perfectly fit to that size.

The only constant is change.


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Wayne, this: https://www.fairchildimaging.com/produc ... rs/mst4323
Cheers

Thanks for that Denny.
Well, I'm not singing "Oh my Darling, Come to me" yet, but Dmitry's post probably explains why the consumer MTF line looks so dumbed down (the less consumer, the more capture bits you see there, strange). If it's that old it might explain the lower spec, and why the pocket upgrade was delayed so many years. I would have loved to look at that sensor, but how does it compare to the Sony one for noise and low light? I wonder if the pocket 4k body is designed for a much bigger hotter sensor, like the 4.6k versions there? This stuff about people wishing for a pro version could even turn out. But is it time for a newer version of their MTF, that would be interesting.

Now, 1.8 watts at 120fps for the 4k MTF ("I see dead people "). Are they sure they couldn't fit that into the original Pocket body?

Wayne, this: https://www.fairchildimaging.com/produc ... rs/mst4323
Cheers

Thanks for that Denny.
Well, I'm not singing "Oh my Darling, Come to me" yet...

My youngest daughter does a fine cover of that song..: 10 days and counting.


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Far out. I'm hoping for something. The Sharp 8k seems unrealistically expensive (a hint to the price range dropped a little while ago) for a h265 long GOP camera. But people have been experimenting with h265 technology in intra codec, and as such it could be used like Braw, with one firmware update. So, the camera is intensely interesting if it can (but I still want it $1000-$2000 with that spec). Using that technology you might even be able to use off the line chips for low cost and power. I think sharp could use asic chips or off the shelf. If they were a big name, I would say give the camera away with their 8k TV's. There is 8k content in Japan, and an 8k camera (with consumer mode) helps users get more use out of a set. But no 8k sharp here. They have new black/contrast filtering and claimed rec2020 perceptual coverage levels in the 90%'s. Good buy signals, except they use older hdmi in a 4 socket input format. I forget if they have the latest HDMI 8k port coming.