What do you think Blackmagic's next camera will be?

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Uli Plank

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Re: What do you think Blackmagic's next camera will be?

PostSat Jul 07, 2018 8:32 am

How can that be?
10 bit is not delivering just 25% more discrete values than 8 bit – as we may think coming from a decimal environment – but 300%! Not one single manufacturer is suggesting HDR in 8 bit.
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Savannah Miller

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Re: What do you think Blackmagic's next camera will be?

PostSat Jul 07, 2018 9:10 am

That's true, but what about 8-bit log. 8-bit log images should contain slightly more than 8-bits once graded? Sure 10-bit is better, but is that to say with 8-bit it's not possible?
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Uli Plank

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Re: What do you think Blackmagic's next camera will be?

PostSat Jul 07, 2018 10:16 am

Log is just rearranging values in the same, in this case quite limited range of numbers. Nobody wants to look at log images, in particular not on a HDR screen. They'll always need grading.

Did you ever try to get an 8 bit Slog-3 image with some nice, soft tonal values in the sky (for example) to look great again by grading? You get ugly blotches of color in that sky most of the times.
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Rakesh Malik

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Re: What do you think Blackmagic's next camera will be?

PostSat Jul 07, 2018 4:34 pm

Savannah Miller wrote:That's true, but what about 8-bit log. 8-bit log images should contain slightly more than 8-bits once graded? Sure 10-bit is better, but is that to say with 8-bit it's not possible?


Log encoding doesn't change the number of values available. And besides, Sony's A7 cameras already record 8-bit log.

10-bit doesn't give you a little more data to work with, it gives you a lot. ProRes HQ is a 10-bit codec; just look at how much flexibility it gives you.

XAVC is a great codec, but it can't change the fact that 8-bits only gives you 256 values. With the wide dynamic range available in Sony's A7 sensors, 8-bit encoding is sacrificing a lot of detail in the quantization stage.

I'm wondering if Sony might split the difference and implement 10-bit output over HDMI and continue limiting the internal recording to 8-bit, and use Fuji's example by building better film emulation modes for the internal recording options.

Or keep marketing to the clueless; one of the representatives at the local pro camera shop who mainly works with stills said during the Fuji demo, "It can record in log, which is like raw for video, right?"

Yeah, people still believe seemingly silly things like that... :)
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Gene Kochanowsky

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Re: What do you think Blackmagic's next camera will be?

PostSat Jul 07, 2018 11:13 pm

rick.lang wrote:I’m too old to be patiently waiting for one of the established camera players to do the right thing. I had to wait decades for Canon to make a printer (G4200) that didn’t drink ink like a tourist at Ocktoberfest! To see the same thing happening to a cinema camera in my life is even more unlikely than being struck by lightning twice.

BMD 12bit rules!


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Rick, I understand that the conventional wisdom is that the big three studiously segment what they call pro features from their prosumer offerings and only provide them in their "Pro" cameras (although Panasonic appears to be violating that to some degree). However the market is changing. Companies like BM, Kinefinity and Red are part of the change. Also the camera market in general is shrinking. The consumer camera is going the way of the dinosaur. The line between prosumer and pro is collapsing. I think Sony realizes this and has decided that the world is not big enough for all three of them and has a strategy to systematically steal market share. One of the ways they are gonna do that is by putting some of those "Pro" features in their prosumer products.

Please Rick, do not confuse my ramblings with a suggestion that you consider a different camera. If you like your camera, you can keep your camera (sounds eerily familiar). But since it appears that BM may be using a Sony sensor in the BMPCC4K, the world of Sony and BM just got closer and it is interesting to speculate on where things are going for both companies.
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Ryan Payne

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Re: What do you think Blackmagic's next camera will be?

PostSun Jul 08, 2018 3:19 am

Put the pocket 4k sensor in a shrunken ursa mini body. ND's, XLR audio, sdi, dual card slots and you've got yourself the go to indie film makers camera for the next 5 years. Pocket 4k has a lot going for it specs wise, an ursa variant fills in all it's downfalls. Aim for 2-2.5k USD. A big thing would be to ensure it's size and weight will allow the use of lower end equipment.
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Uli Plank

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Re: What do you think Blackmagic's next camera will be?

PostSun Jul 08, 2018 3:35 am

Rakesh Malik wrote:Or keep marketing to the clueless; one of the representatives at the local pro camera shop who mainly works with stills said during the Fuji demo, "It can record in log, which is like raw for video, right?"

Yeah, people still believe seemingly silly things like that... :)


Just like they keep telling you: "Oh, and it has Slog-3 which the Big Boys use."

And I have to keep telling folks not to touch it other than in extreme contrast and rather use one of the Cine profiles instead.
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rick.lang

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Re: What do you think Blackmagic's next camera will be?

PostSun Jul 08, 2018 4:27 am

Gene Kochanowsky wrote:.... But since it appears that BM may be using a Sony sensor in the BMPCC4K, the world of Sony and BM just got closer and it is interesting to speculate on where things are going for both companies.


Yes it is, Gene. My remarks were intended as advice to anyone holding eheir breath if one thinks in a couple of weeks or months, there will be a tsunami of change arriving via Sony cameras as a result of Sony licensing a version of their mFT sensor to more than one camera manufacturer.


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Wayne Steven

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Re: What do you think Blackmagic's next camera will be?

PostSun Jul 08, 2018 10:06 pm

Back in cinema camera development prior BM, they tried log to fit more dynamic range in, and to map the visual response better. So, yes the same amount of values, but squeezing a wider spread in.

Ambarella (think el cheapo cameras) put their HDR mode as 10 bit, so I've got no trouble thinking that bigger more expensive cameras will move to 10 bit and beyond. Frankly Dolby vision uses 12 bits. 10 bits in HDR is the new 8 bit of SDR. But for grading this might mean at least 2-4 bits+ over Dolby. Which is pretty much my estimates of maybe 14 to up to 20 years ago of the amount of bits needed for post scene lighting adjustments. Though now I would say even 32-40 bits+ is useful for computational photography. 16 bits is a good minimum though. This is what is now used professionally. So, 12 bits should be consider still in the consumer space as far as HDR goes.

Now, 10 bits is 4 stops over 8 bits in absolute linear mathematical terms. I remember that graders could push 8 bit images by up to 2 bits (but what would that look like on a modern OLED). So, 10 bit might give little hdr grading potential. But the 10-12 bits are cheat bits anyway (beyond log), so 16 bits+ linear would still be pro territory.

Been looking at low light comparison between the 7-3 Sony and 7-2's at www.newcamera.com. Most interesting how the 3 holds together the guys face color and habkes the dynamic range, but there is a flip over to the other version at 56k iso or so.
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Savannah Miller

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Re: What do you think Blackmagic's next camera will be?

PostMon Jul 09, 2018 8:11 am

Do you think blackmagic will ever attempt wireless video or lens control? Current wireless video options are very expensive, and surely they can be made cheaper with enough volume. Also, if they managed to fit it inside the next gen of ursa mini with a receiver for the video assist, that would be interesting as well.

I feel like if they did it would have to make use of existing technologies rather than a brand new receiver and controllers. Maybe wireless video monitoring from an ipad or something.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: What do you think Blackmagic's next camera will be?

PostMon Jul 09, 2018 9:18 am

Depends on how wireless. To get prices down, it is best to piggy back on a consumer standard. Unfortunately all wireless USB attempts have been defeated (doesn't mean its not out there). WiFi direct was defeated and now Bluetooth reigns. 7gb/s WiFi was announced so long ago, but where is it. WiFi could be used, but I don't think its reliable as us. Mobile phones are to use WiFi techniques, but DUMB, WiFi is not very good at sharing (just seen an article on an California tech attempt to solve that. But his much will even phones interfere with a reliable signal. There is an wireless alternative to HDMI by the same company, but it is line of sight. But if you can accept buffering and update to the drive network as often as can, that helps. But let's step back, and look. If you only have a situation where a belt drive or light backpack like unit is acceptable, even lifi (light version) or it could relay if always in line if sight, or a thin TB optical cable etc, from which it can be haphazardly uploaded to the networked drive. Roll this into camera, then the pocket could use just a descent WiFi this way, but then storage has to keep up with both writing and reading constantly. If there was two storage devices on the pocket, you could stripe them to help, with a bunch of fees written to one while the previous frames are read from the other, then swapping back and forwards bunches of writes then reads.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: What do you think Blackmagic's next camera will be?

PostMon Jul 09, 2018 9:23 am

Oh, you mean just wireless monitoring. So f they reconfigure BT to a better version, they could. Or put WiFi in. Why not just put a HDMI to WiFi dongle on. Buy storage with WiFi and support transmitting a preview. They used to have SD cards with WiFi. You could make an thin adaptor that mounts between the main card socket and card. Etc. Has it got some other port that could take a signal/dongle. How about a USB to WiFi dongle?
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Rakesh Malik

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Re: What do you think Blackmagic's next camera will be?

PostMon Jul 09, 2018 3:57 pm

Uli Plank wrote:Just like they keep telling you: "Oh, and it has Slog-3 which the Big Boys use."

And I have to keep telling folks not to touch it other than in extreme contrast and rather use one of the Cine profiles instead.


Yeah, as if a gamma curve will make the footage more malleable... with those toy cameras you really need to just get it right in camera, but I'm not willing to educate them on that any more. Let them have their ETTR and try to match their shots in post... not my bag, baby.
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Rakesh Malik

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Re: What do you think Blackmagic's next camera will be?

PostMon Jul 09, 2018 4:05 pm

Savannah Miller wrote:Do you think blackmagic will ever attempt wireless video or lens control? Current wireless video options are very expensive, and surely they can be made cheaper with enough volume. Also, if they managed to fit it inside the next gen of ursa mini with a receiver for the video assist, that would be interesting as well.


I wouldn't be surprised if BMD had that on its radar. I think wireless video would make a lot of sense, since there are very good transmitters and receivers available that BMD could use, but it really depends on whether or not BMD sees a market for it.

IMO it would be a good bet; BMD could build a transmitter in a sequel to the UMP and a transmitter that could hook onto the SDI or HDMI port of a current camera, and build a receiver into a sequel to the Video Assist... and if it's a receiver that's compatible with Teradek or Paralinx transmitters, it would probably become a VERY popular monitor. :)

I feel like if they did it would have to make use of existing technologies rather than a brand new receiver and controllers. Maybe wireless video monitoring from an ipad or something.


Yes, it would. BMD doesn't like making things that are insanely expensive, so I suspect that Grant wouldn't be happy with a video transmitter/receiver that cost more than $500 or so for a pair. If it requires custom hardware, BMD wouldn't be able to keep at that price point.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: What do you think Blackmagic's next camera will be?

PostMon Jul 09, 2018 11:02 pm

True. I was thinking that they could market generic products to to this for different cameras, but they didn't even put in suitable WiFi even BT for monitoring, or hdmi2, usb 10mb/s+, and a couple of other obvious beneficial things. Apart from these, outside the sensor and camera size, its a pretty good camera.

Here's a question, those ports in the front, are they hot air vents? If so, how do they go with condensation on the lens body and thermal expansion of the lens components, or did I just point out a 6 month delay?
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Savannah Miller

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Re: What do you think Blackmagic's next camera will be?

PostTue Jul 10, 2018 12:37 am

That's what I'm thinking. Arri put lens control in their cameras before wireless video, but i'm suspecting on the low end, people would rather have wireless video first as a lot of people use stills glass anyway which has focus by wire functionality built-in. And even if you're on a small production with no budget for a first-ac, a wireless monitor is always useful for clients.

The new tilta wireless follow focus at $299 really is about as cheap as that probably can be made in low-volumes. Blackmagic did price the viewfinder at $1500, and while affordable for a viewfinder does show that they're sometimes willing to charge a bit more if it means a quality product.

I do think in their cameras from now on, they will add the usb-c recording functionality, because lots of buzz has been generated on that feature alone, and it's a decent compromise for people that still insist on SSD over Cfast 2.0 recording. On top of that, no other camera does this, so another manufacturer copies this, it will be another unique feature that sets Blackmagic apart.
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Re: What do you think Blackmagic's next camera will be?

PostTue Jul 10, 2018 2:49 am

Some of the stuff you guys are mentioning, eg wirelesss video, we’ll probably see in the next version of the Ursa. Not the mini. Just my guess of course. I’m betting it would be full frame as well. This camera would be bigger than the Ursa mini. And would probably have the SSD recorder built right into the camera.
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Savannah Miller

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Re: What do you think Blackmagic's next camera will be?

PostTue Jul 10, 2018 3:46 am

Given the feedback of Ursa mini users, I doubt they'll go any bigger, if anything smaller or the same size with more features.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: What do you think Blackmagic's next camera will be?

PostTue Jul 10, 2018 8:36 am

Yeah. You can fit a fair bit in, even if you have a short range circuit and have an long range antenna module. As they move more towards asic and low powered circuits a lot of stuff shrinks away. Look at the pocket 4k, and looks at the light 16, or the light enable phone picture. It's a bit mystifying using fpga instead of programmable asic, but maybe like Red, they are looking st moving to their own asic, or some low power high speed FPGA coming (magnetic programmable circuit, just brilliant. I'm wanting yo get enough money to do my own elcheapo FPGA. I'm not all empty head).
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Rakesh Malik

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Re: What do you think Blackmagic's next camera will be?

PostTue Jul 10, 2018 5:41 pm

Savannah Miller wrote:That's what I'm thinking. Arri put lens control in their cameras before wireless video, but i'm suspecting on the low end, people would rather have wireless video first as a lot of people use stills glass anyway which has focus by wire functionality built-in.


More significantly is that the low end doesn't actually pull focus anyway. Low end productions usually don't have enough time and/or people to be able to pull focus, and stills lenses tend to breath enough to make focus pulls undesirable as well.

And even if you're on a small production with no budget for a first-ac, a wireless monitor is always useful for clients.


Agreed.

The new tilta wireless follow focus at $299 really is about as cheap as that probably can be made in low-volumes. Blackmagic did price the viewfinder at $1500, and while affordable for a viewfinder does show that they're sometimes willing to charge a bit more if it means a quality product.


BMD wasn't really charging more; comparable viewfinders cost $3000 when BMD launched that one, plus it has an OLED display, and those aren't cheap. When BMD introduced it, I also took a look at the Zacuto Gratical that was one of the $3000 OLED displays, and really couldn't see much difference between the two. As far as image and build quality the difference was IMO nil.

I'm intrigued by the new Tilta; I'm definitely going to check that out!

I do think in their cameras from now on, they will add the usb-c recording functionality, because lots of buzz has been generated on that feature alone, and it's a decent compromise for people that still insist on SSD over Cfast 2.0 recording. On top of that, no other camera does this, so another manufacturer copies this, it will be another unique feature that sets Blackmagic apart.


That's a great idea, IMO. It's not reliable enough for high end work, but it's great for budget work, especially since CFast2 prices are still pretty high from what I've seen.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: What do you think Blackmagic's next camera will be?

PostWed Jul 11, 2018 3:54 am

The cheap Pimax VR headset uses 4k micro displays which are nearly as good as oled, but they couldn't get 4k oled.

The oled viewfinder is very pricy, and should be included in the camera. They might get 10x-100x the volume and a big discount.
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Savannah Miller

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Re: What do you think Blackmagic's next camera will be?

PostWed Jul 11, 2018 4:11 am

That's an interesting argument. I wonder if they could produce the ursa mini pro for $7K instead of $7500 if the viewfinder was included. It is nice at $6K for the people that don't want the viewfinder (not everyone does) but it's an interesting thought.

I think SSD over usb-c is not the most professional either, but it's a good compromise for people that can't afford C-Fast and want large and fast storage without having to increase the size of the camera or make significant changes.

My guess is Blackmagic won't put out another Ursa Mini Pro until there is a significant deviation from the previous model. That means either a combination of: 1. Better noise performance, 2. Integrated Wireless Video, 3. Increased framerates, 4. an entirely new Sony sensor, 5. significant reduction in size or weight without compromising features
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rick.lang

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Re: What do you think Blackmagic's next camera will be?

PostWed Jul 11, 2018 4:19 am

And the missing built-in GPS?

I think the problems with the GPS in the URSA Mini was related to getting good signals within the body. Now that may not be a problem with the new carbon fibre polycarbonate hybrid body on the Pocket4K. Wouldn’t that be an Easter Egg surprise?
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Savannah Miller

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Re: What do you think Blackmagic's next camera will be?

PostWed Jul 11, 2018 5:44 am

Is there a lot of uses for the GPS that i'm not thinking of? They gyroscope they claim would be useful for compositing and VFX but I don't believe that's the case at all unless it's extremely accurate. It would have to be very precise or it would be quicker and easier to do your own tracking.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: What do you think Blackmagic's next camera will be?

PostWed Jul 11, 2018 2:07 pm

Using that technology it might be more like $6500 or even $6000. If only someone would do a generic viewfinder using cheap technology like in the pimax and then use custom cable on a generic interface. So, what ever system, you could connect an internal dongle with cable type you need fur the camera (the dongle converter sits inside the viewfinder body with the cable coming out to the camera). So, that is ussually HDMI and SDI, but mhl/USB is another one. So one view finder is made in bulk with a few types of cables. A module could even fit a few micro interfaces in and wifi. Wifi would be excellent for future pocket and micro cameras in particular, even other manufacturers cameras and phones.

BM is probably not aware of the technology in the pimax.
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