Blackmagic Forum

How can that be?
10 bit is not delivering just 25% more discrete values than 8 bit – as we may think coming from a decimal environment – but 300%! Not one single manufacturer is suggesting HDR in 8 bit.

That's true, but what about 8-bit log. 8-bit log images should contain slightly more than 8-bits once graded? Sure 10-bit is better, but is that to say with 8-bit it's not possible?

Log is just rearranging values in the same, in this case quite limited range of numbers. Nobody wants to look at log images, in particular not on a HDR screen. They'll always need grading.

Did you ever try to get an 8 bit Slog-3 image with some nice, soft tonal values in the sky (for example) to look great again by grading? You get ugly blotches of color in that sky most of the times.

Savannah Miller wrote:That's true, but what about 8-bit log. 8-bit log images should contain slightly more than 8-bits once graded? Sure 10-bit is better, but is that to say with 8-bit it's not possible?

Log encoding doesn't change the number of values available. And besides, Sony's A7 cameras already record 8-bit log.

10-bit doesn't give you a little more data to work with, it gives you a lot. ProRes HQ is a 10-bit codec; just look at how much flexibility it gives you.

XAVC is a great codec, but it can't change the fact that 8-bits only gives you 256 values. With the wide dynamic range available in Sony's A7 sensors, 8-bit encoding is sacrificing a lot of detail in the quantization stage.

I'm wondering if Sony might split the difference and implement 10-bit output over HDMI and continue limiting the internal recording to 8-bit, and use Fuji's example by building better film emulation modes for the internal recording options.

Or keep marketing to the clueless; one of the representatives at the local pro camera shop who mainly works with stills said during the Fuji demo, "It can record in log, which is like raw for video, right?"

Yeah, people still believe seemingly silly things like that...

rick.lang wrote:I’m too old to be patiently waiting for one of the established camera players to do the right thing. I had to wait decades for Canon to make a printer (G4200) that didn’t drink ink like a tourist at Ocktoberfest! To see the same thing happening to a cinema camera in my life is even more unlikely than being struck by lightning twice.

BMD 12bit rules!


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Rick, I understand that the conventional wisdom is that the big three studiously segment what they call pro features from their prosumer offerings and only provide them in their "Pro" cameras (although Panasonic appears to be violating that to some degree). However the market is changing. Companies like BM, Kinefinity and Red are part of the change. Also the camera market in general is shrinking. The consumer camera is going the way of the dinosaur. The line between prosumer and pro is collapsing. I think Sony realizes this and has decided that the world is not big enough for all three of them and has a strategy to systematically steal market share. One of the ways they are gonna do that is by putting some of those "Pro" features in their prosumer products.

Please Rick, do not confuse my ramblings with a suggestion that you consider a different camera. If you like your camera, you can keep your camera (sounds eerily familiar). But since it appears that BM may be using a Sony sensor in the BMPCC4K, the world of Sony and BM just got closer and it is interesting to speculate on where things are going for both companies.

Put the pocket 4k sensor in a shrunken ursa mini body. ND's, XLR audio, sdi, dual card slots and you've got yourself the go to indie film makers camera for the next 5 years. Pocket 4k has a lot going for it specs wise, an ursa variant fills in all it's downfalls. Aim for 2-2.5k USD. A big thing would be to ensure it's size and weight will allow the use of lower end equipment.

Rakesh Malik wrote:Or keep marketing to the clueless; one of the representatives at the local pro camera shop who mainly works with stills said during the Fuji demo, "It can record in log, which is like raw for video, right?"

Yeah, people still believe seemingly silly things like that...

Just like they keep telling you: "Oh, and it has Slog-3 which the Big Boys use."

And I have to keep telling folks not to touch it other than in extreme contrast and rather use one of the Cine profiles instead.

Gene Kochanowsky wrote:.... But since it appears that BM may be using a Sony sensor in the BMPCC4K, the world of Sony and BM just got closer and it is interesting to speculate on where things are going for both companies.

Yes it is, Gene. My remarks were intended as advice to anyone holding eheir breath if one thinks in a couple of weeks or months, there will be a tsunami of change arriving via Sony cameras as a result of Sony licensing a version of their mFT sensor to more than one camera manufacturer.


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Back in cinema camera development prior BM, they tried log to fit more dynamic range in, and to map the visual response better. So, yes the same amount of values, but squeezing a wider spread in.

Ambarella (think el cheapo cameras) put their HDR mode as 10 bit, so I've got no trouble thinking that bigger more expensive cameras will move to 10 bit and beyond. Frankly Dolby vision uses 12 bits. 10 bits in HDR is the new 8 bit of SDR. But for grading this might mean at least 2-4 bits+ over Dolby. Which is pretty much my estimates of maybe 14 to up to 20 years ago of the amount of bits needed for post scene lighting adjustments. Though now I would say even 32-40 bits+ is useful for computational photography. 16 bits is a good minimum though. This is what is now used professionally. So, 12 bits should be consider still in the consumer space as far as HDR goes.

Now, 10 bits is 4 stops over 8 bits in absolute linear mathematical terms. I remember that graders could push 8 bit images by up to 2 bits (but what would that look like on a modern OLED). So, 10 bit might give little hdr grading potential. But the 10-12 bits are cheat bits anyway (beyond log), so 16 bits+ linear would still be pro territory.

Been looking at low light comparison between the 7-3 Sony and 7-2's at www.newcamera.com. Most interesting how the 3 holds together the guys face color and habkes the dynamic range, but there is a flip over to the other version at 56k iso or so.

Do you think blackmagic will ever attempt wireless video or lens control? Current wireless video options are very expensive, and surely they can be made cheaper with enough volume. Also, if they managed to fit it inside the next gen of ursa mini with a receiver for the video assist, that would be interesting as well.

I feel like if they did it would have to make use of existing technologies rather than a brand new receiver and controllers. Maybe wireless video monitoring from an ipad or something.

Depends on how wireless. To get prices down, it is best to piggy back on a consumer standard. Unfortunately all wireless USB attempts have been defeated (doesn't mean its not out there). WiFi direct was defeated and now Bluetooth reigns. 7gb/s WiFi was announced so long ago, but where is it. WiFi could be used, but I don't think its reliable as us. Mobile phones are to use WiFi techniques, but DUMB, WiFi is not very good at sharing (just seen an article on an California tech attempt to solve that. But his much will even phones interfere with a reliable signal. There is an wireless alternative to HDMI by the same company, but it is line of sight. But if you can accept buffering and update to the drive network as often as can, that helps. But let's step back, and look. If you only have a situation where a belt drive or light backpack like unit is acceptable, even lifi (light version) or it could relay if always in line if sight, or a thin TB optical cable etc, from which it can be haphazardly uploaded to the networked drive. Roll this into camera, then the pocket could use just a descent WiFi this way, but then storage has to keep up with both writing and reading constantly. If there was two storage devices on the pocket, you could stripe them to help, with a bunch of fees written to one while the previous frames are read from the other, then swapping back and forwards bunches of writes then reads.

Oh, you mean just wireless monitoring. So f they reconfigure BT to a better version, they could. Or put WiFi in. Why not just put a HDMI to WiFi dongle on. Buy storage with WiFi and support transmitting a preview. They used to have SD cards with WiFi. You could make an thin adaptor that mounts between the main card socket and card. Etc. Has it got some other port that could take a signal/dongle. How about a USB to WiFi dongle?

Uli Plank wrote:Just like they keep telling you: "Oh, and it has Slog-3 which the Big Boys use."

And I have to keep telling folks not to touch it other than in extreme contrast and rather use one of the Cine profiles instead.

Yeah, as if a gamma curve will make the footage more malleable... with those toy cameras you really need to just get it right in camera, but I'm not willing to educate them on that any more. Let them have their ETTR and try to match their shots in post... not my bag, baby.

Savannah Miller wrote:Do you think blackmagic will ever attempt wireless video or lens control? Current wireless video options are very expensive, and surely they can be made cheaper with enough volume. Also, if they managed to fit it inside the next gen of ursa mini with a receiver for the video assist, that would be interesting as well.

I wouldn't be surprised if BMD had that on its radar. I think wireless video would make a lot of sense, since there are very good transmitters and receivers available that BMD could use, but it really depends on whether or not BMD sees a market for it.

IMO it would be a good bet; BMD could build a transmitter in a sequel to the UMP and a transmitter that could hook onto the SDI or HDMI port of a current camera, and build a receiver into a sequel to the Video Assist... and if it's a receiver that's compatible with Teradek or Paralinx transmitters, it would probably become a VERY popular monitor.

I feel like if they did it would have to make use of existing technologies rather than a brand new receiver and controllers. Maybe wireless video monitoring from an ipad or something.

Yes, it would. BMD doesn't like making things that are insanely expensive, so I suspect that Grant wouldn't be happy with a video transmitter/receiver that cost more than $500 or so for a pair. If it requires custom hardware, BMD wouldn't be able to keep at that price point.

True. I was thinking that they could market generic products to to this for different cameras, but they didn't even put in suitable WiFi even BT for monitoring, or hdmi2, usb 10mb/s+, and a couple of other obvious beneficial things. Apart from these, outside the sensor and camera size, its a pretty good camera.

Here's a question, those ports in the front, are they hot air vents? If so, how do they go with condensation on the lens body and thermal expansion of the lens components, or did I just point out a 6 month delay?

That's what I'm thinking. Arri put lens control in their cameras before wireless video, but i'm suspecting on the low end, people would rather have wireless video first as a lot of people use stills glass anyway which has focus by wire functionality built-in. And even if you're on a small production with no budget for a first-ac, a wireless monitor is always useful for clients.

The new tilta wireless follow focus at $299 really is about as cheap as that probably can be made in low-volumes. Blackmagic did price the viewfinder at $1500, and while affordable for a viewfinder does show that they're sometimes willing to charge a bit more if it means a quality product.

I do think in their cameras from now on, they will add the usb-c recording functionality, because lots of buzz has been generated on that feature alone, and it's a decent compromise for people that still insist on SSD over Cfast 2.0 recording. On top of that, no other camera does this, so another manufacturer copies this, it will be another unique feature that sets Blackmagic apart.

Some of the stuff you guys are mentioning, eg wirelesss video, we’ll probably see in the next version of the Ursa. Not the mini. Just my guess of course. I’m betting it would be full frame as well. This camera would be bigger than the Ursa mini. And would probably have the SSD recorder built right into the camera.

Given the feedback of Ursa mini users, I doubt they'll go any bigger, if anything smaller or the same size with more features.

Yeah. You can fit a fair bit in, even if you have a short range circuit and have an long range antenna module. As they move more towards asic and low powered circuits a lot of stuff shrinks away. Look at the pocket 4k, and looks at the light 16, or the light enable phone picture. It's a bit mystifying using fpga instead of programmable asic, but maybe like Red, they are looking st moving to their own asic, or some low power high speed FPGA coming (magnetic programmable circuit, just brilliant. I'm wanting yo get enough money to do my own elcheapo FPGA. I'm not all empty head).

Savannah Miller wrote:That's what I'm thinking. Arri put lens control in their cameras before wireless video, but i'm suspecting on the low end, people would rather have wireless video first as a lot of people use stills glass anyway which has focus by wire functionality built-in.

More significantly is that the low end doesn't actually pull focus anyway. Low end productions usually don't have enough time and/or people to be able to pull focus, and stills lenses tend to breath enough to make focus pulls undesirable as well.

And even if you're on a small production with no budget for a first-ac, a wireless monitor is always useful for clients.

Agreed.

The new tilta wireless follow focus at $299 really is about as cheap as that probably can be made in low-volumes. Blackmagic did price the viewfinder at $1500, and while affordable for a viewfinder does show that they're sometimes willing to charge a bit more if it means a quality product.

BMD wasn't really charging more; comparable viewfinders cost $3000 when BMD launched that one, plus it has an OLED display, and those aren't cheap. When BMD introduced it, I also took a look at the Zacuto Gratical that was one of the $3000 OLED displays, and really couldn't see much difference between the two. As far as image and build quality the difference was IMO nil.

I'm intrigued by the new Tilta; I'm definitely going to check that out!

I do think in their cameras from now on, they will add the usb-c recording functionality, because lots of buzz has been generated on that feature alone, and it's a decent compromise for people that still insist on SSD over Cfast 2.0 recording. On top of that, no other camera does this, so another manufacturer copies this, it will be another unique feature that sets Blackmagic apart.

That's a great idea, IMO. It's not reliable enough for high end work, but it's great for budget work, especially since CFast2 prices are still pretty high from what I've seen.

The cheap Pimax VR headset uses 4k micro displays which are nearly as good as oled, but they couldn't get 4k oled.

The oled viewfinder is very pricy, and should be included in the camera. They might get 10x-100x the volume and a big discount.

That's an interesting argument. I wonder if they could produce the ursa mini pro for $7K instead of $7500 if the viewfinder was included. It is nice at $6K for the people that don't want the viewfinder (not everyone does) but it's an interesting thought.

I think SSD over usb-c is not the most professional either, but it's a good compromise for people that can't afford C-Fast and want large and fast storage without having to increase the size of the camera or make significant changes.

My guess is Blackmagic won't put out another Ursa Mini Pro until there is a significant deviation from the previous model. That means either a combination of: 1. Better noise performance, 2. Integrated Wireless Video, 3. Increased framerates, 4. an entirely new Sony sensor, 5. significant reduction in size or weight without compromising features

And the missing built-in GPS?

I think the problems with the GPS in the URSA Mini was related to getting good signals within the body. Now that may not be a problem with the new carbon fibre polycarbonate hybrid body on the Pocket4K. Wouldn’t that be an Easter Egg surprise?

Is there a lot of uses for the GPS that i'm not thinking of? They gyroscope they claim would be useful for compositing and VFX but I don't believe that's the case at all unless it's extremely accurate. It would have to be very precise or it would be quicker and easier to do your own tracking.

Using that technology it might be more like $6500 or even $6000. If only someone would do a generic viewfinder using cheap technology like in the pimax and then use custom cable on a generic interface. So, what ever system, you could connect an internal dongle with cable type you need fur the camera (the dongle converter sits inside the viewfinder body with the cable coming out to the camera). So, that is ussually HDMI and SDI, but mhl/USB is another one. So one view finder is made in bulk with a few types of cables. A module could even fit a few micro interfaces in and wifi. Wifi would be excellent for future pocket and micro cameras in particular, even other manufacturers cameras and phones.

BM is probably not aware of the technology in the pimax.

Savannah Miller wrote:What kind of volume does Kinefinity sell? They seem to not be that big, yet they easily get Sony sensors for their cams, and for all we know they might even be using a custom CFA too. They are a fairly small camera team yet they make it look easy how quickly they can get working prototypes of their cameras. Maybe it's just they are more aggressive than Blackmagic at putting out an unfinished product.

What's interesting to me is the dual-gain model of sensor seems to be getting eclipsed in DR too so maybe Blackmagic might make a full sony switch when something comes up that provides equivalent or better performance? I'm sure they need a few more cameras with the 4.6K sensor first since they spent so much on development. Then Blackmagic cameras will also shrink in size and increase battery life too which will be welcome. And they'll be a bit more flexible with underexposure which is always a welcome change given the end users who buy these kind of cameras often complain about this.

What makes you think Kinefinity are using Sony sensors? (aside from in the Terra 4K, which is the same as in the BMPCC4K??? Maybe??? Who knows)

Gene Kochanowsky wrote:To be fair to both Kinefinity and BM, AFAICT, all Kinefinity does is cinema cameras whereas BM has a fairly large array of different markets and produces both hardware and software. Kinefinity does show the advantage of concentration. And given the huge number of contract electronics companies in China, I doubt that they do their own PCB assemblies and may not do their own integration. Whereas BM does all the electronics assembly and system integrations. BM has a lot of balls in the air, and that divides their attention.

Actually, I feel the broader background BMD has gave them an edge when they got into the camera business as they already had a lot of knowledge about I/O, recording, codecs, etc

David Peterson wrote:Actually, I feel the broader background BMD has gave them an edge when they got into the camera business as they already had a lot of knowledge about I/O, recording, codecs, etc

And don't forget DaVinci. Having that team with lots of experience in color science made a huge difference for BMD's first camera, since it had great image quality right out the gate, unlike AJA's Cion (for example). And that was a camera based on a scientific imager, and not a custom one.

Bingo, Rakesh! It may be a Sony sensor already used in a Panasonic camera, but BMD will not rest until they can release their camera with images that won’t be mistaken for a Sony or a Panasonic. BMCC 6.5 micron photosite produced a beautiful image and the Mini 4.6K 5.5 micron photosite did so much better as it achieved “baby Alexa” certification and now the challenge is repeating or beating that with a 4.63 micron photosite with dual ISO thrown in the mix. It’s the kind of challenge that must keep some of these engineers up all night. The champagne will flow when this camera is released.


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BMD might be working with Sony and using custom color filters and that sort of thing, like Phase One and Fujifilm and Hasselblad do. (Yes, Fuji, with lots of experience making some pretty sophisticated sensors, went with Sony for its medium format sensor).

If BMD is working with Sony, then it's likely that the new Pocket sensor is back-side illuminated, which is a big boost for sensitivity.

Rakesh Malik wrote:

David Peterson wrote:Actually, I feel the broader background BMD has gave them an edge when they got into the camera business as they already had a lot of knowledge about I/O, recording, codecs, etc

And don't forget DaVinci. Having that team with lots of experience in color science made a huge difference for BMD's first camera, since it had great image quality right out the gate, unlike AJA's Cion (for example). And that was a camera based on a scientific imager, and not a custom one.

Don't forget some of the DaVinci codec results are not so flash. There is a guy in Europe somewhere that does luts to iron out and normalise camera results. It will a shock that he can do this at all, as you would think DaVinci would have done it already.

Maybe the next cinema camera will be the BMPCCE?

How about this?
I wouldn't be suprised to see this in the near future. 12G sdi out. Shading by Atem control.
15/ 20x zoom..

David Peterson wrote:

Savannah Miller wrote:What kind of volume does Kinefinity sell? They seem to not be that big, yet they easily get Sony sensors for their cams, and for all we know they might even be using a custom CFA too. They are a fairly small camera team yet they make it look easy how quickly they can get working prototypes of their cameras. Maybe it's just they are more aggressive than Blackmagic at putting out an unfinished product.

What's interesting to me is the dual-gain model of sensor seems to be getting eclipsed in DR too so maybe Blackmagic might make a full sony switch when something comes up that provides equivalent or better performance? I'm sure they need a few more cameras with the 4.6K sensor first since they spent so much on development. Then Blackmagic cameras will also shrink in size and increase battery life too which will be welcome. And they'll be a bit more flexible with underexposure which is always a welcome change given the end users who buy these kind of cameras often complain about this.

What makes you think Kinefinity are using Sony sensors? (aside from in the Terra 4K, which is the same as in the BMPCC4K??? Maybe??? Who knows)

Gene Kochanowsky wrote:To be fair to both Kinefinity and BM, AFAICT, all Kinefinity does is cinema cameras whereas BM has a fairly large array of different markets and produces both hardware and software. Kinefinity does show the advantage of concentration. And given the huge number of contract electronics companies in China, I doubt that they do their own PCB assemblies and may not do their own integration. Whereas BM does all the electronics assembly and system integrations. BM has a lot of balls in the air, and that divides their attention.

Actually, I feel the broader background BMD has gave them an edge when they got into the camera business as they already had a lot of knowledge about I/O, recording, codecs, etc

The new MAVO camera has the same specs as the DJI X7 in terms of sensor size, resolution, etc. so I believe they are the same sensor. It's known that DJI is using sensors from SONY. Before their MAVO line, the Terra 4K is also Sony, but we don't know where the previous sensors came from. I will say Kinefinity before the MAVO has never had the dynamic range of Blackmagic or other cinema cameras. The older stuff was really behind and it really gave Blackmagic an edge by using dual-gain sensors. Now maybe not as much.

The new MAVO LF is possibly a custom-made sensor but I have no proof of this.

I think based on Dan May's comments in an interview, the new Pocket 4K does indeed have an off-the-shelf sensor. Maybe stock CFA and everything since they liked the performance of the sensor.

I like the performance of those new Sony sensors too.

But let's say this about judging sensors by their size and resolution. When aiming at closely using a standard resolution, many different sensors of the same size have the same resolution. So, standard size and resolution might not say much. Can you find only one Sony sensor with that combination, that might be it?

So, nobody want my BMPCCE?

BMPCCE? A Pocket with E mount? I thought Sony does not license the E mount for cameras, only support for the mount on lenses.


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Yes, the Sony E Mount is not an available option, unless Sony makes the camera.
Cheers

rick.lang wrote:BMPCCE? A Pocket with E mount? I thought Sony does not license the E mount for cameras, only support for the mount on lenses.

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Pocket Cinema Camera Eight(k)

Sorry, Wayne, for my misunderstanding. BMPCC8K might be less ambiguous.


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Sorry, it was a joke.

But let's talk about the BMCMN(cinema mobile N).

It only gets better my guess is, kind of a module, with adapters for various lenses, no internal recorder, all the kind of crazy settings, resolutions, frame rates, shutter speeds, ideal sensor size, aka crop factor, pasive cooling, minimal power requirements, titanium body ? otherwise..... i wouldn't know....

Eric-Jan wrote:It only gets better my guess is, kind of a module, with adapters for various lenses, no internal recorder, all the kind of crazy settings, resolutions, frame rates, shutter speeds, ideal sensor size, aka crop factor, pasive cooling, minimal power requirements, titanium body ? otherwise..... i wouldn't know....

Stop descibing the new RED cameras..

Xtreemtec wrote:

Eric-Jan wrote:It only gets better my guess is, kind of a module, with adapters for various lenses, no internal recorder, all the kind of crazy settings, resolutions, frame rates, shutter speeds, ideal sensor size, aka crop factor, pasive cooling, minimal power requirements, titanium body ? otherwise..... i wouldn't know....

Stop descibing the new RED cameras..

I guess BlackMagicDesign makes it affordable otherwise there is no niche for wishful thinking for a new BMD camera, or it should be "tuned" to the other products/software of BMD, is most logical i think. or also to that of the competition

Now I know there's plenty of 3rd party manufacturers for black magic products but I'd personally love to see a few BMD official accessories for the pocket 4k much like the Ursa accessories.

The ursa's accessories accentuate the ursa's shoulder built purpose, I wonder what could be made for the pocket 4k.

Xtreemtec wrote:

Eric-Jan wrote:It only gets better my guess is, kind of a module, with adapters for various lenses, no internal recorder, all the kind of crazy settings, resolutions, frame rates, shutter speeds, ideal sensor size, aka crop factor, pasive cooling, minimal power requirements, titanium body ? otherwise..... i wouldn't know....

Stop descibing the new RED cameras..

Lol, you mean the old cameras. When they came out with their old system, people had trouble even trying to figure out how to turn it on without the right module. Modules are great too, if you only need them to do something unusual, or for a different market segment (Eng, cinema, stills etc).

Time for an April fools joke next year, a new camera where you have to buy extra modules for: the power button, the record button, the stop button, media card release leaver, at $900 a pop..

Wayne, at least we can relax knowing you’re describing the modular newer Mac Pro that might be released next year or a future RED camera in your joke.


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rick.lang wrote:Wayne, at least we can relax knowing you’re describing the modular newer Mac Pro that might be released next year or a future RED camera in your joke.

A computer so modular that you need to purchase an add-module to get a ThunderBolt 3 port to connect your 17 dongles to...

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rick.lang wrote:Wayne, at least we can relax knowing you’re describing the modular newer Mac Pro that might be released next year or a future RED camera in your joke.

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Wonder where they got their modular Mac pro ideas from?

Savannah Miller wrote:I did hear the rumors of 60p and 10-bit as well. Canon did make claims that the difference between 10-bit and 8-bit codecs is very minimal, and while it's probably to make them look good, maybe there is some truth to that.

Straight out of the camera, it's mostly true, though 8-bit codecs might lead to some banding in skies and such. Most of the time though, that won't be noticeable until you start manipulating it.

If the camera shoots 8-bit log you can you still output to HDR?

I think so, but I'm not sure that there would be much point.

I do think if the Blackmagic and Panasonic steal a lot of customers of the other brands, maybe they Canon and Sony will add some better features but right now, I am not sure that they will.

That's actually already happening. Sony is stealing customers from Canon and Nikon as well, especially on the photography side.

If sony recorded 10-bit, and a 60fps readout for better rolling shutter, with the color science improvements stemming from Sony Venice, the a7siii would be an incredible camera that in many ways would rival the Pocket 4K. If you don't HAVE to have RAW recording, then it would be a good option.

True... though I'd still favor the Pocket 4K for film work, even though I use a Sony for my stills. I'm still not a fan of hybrids in general because they all have to trade something off.