BMPCC 4K…for september ?

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Christophe Deshoux

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BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostMon Jul 23, 2018 1:08 pm

Does anyone know if Blackmagic confirms the release / availability of the BMPCC 4K in September?
I think Blackmagic has any interest in keeping his promises ...
What makes me gifted is that the version presented at the shows was not final ... For the design (ultimately carbon fiber?) And the sensor ...
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michaeldhead

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Re: BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostMon Jul 23, 2018 2:01 pm

All the previews I saw at NAB said the hardware and design is all done, they just had to iron out the material for the body. I think BMD learned from the long delays of their previous cameras, so I, for one, think they will make it in September (although I hope they can meet the preorder demands without compromising quality control).
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Craig Seeman

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Re: BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostMon Jul 23, 2018 3:46 pm

My understanding is that the more recent trade shows are still showing the prototype (not the final materials). We're 9 weeks away from the end of September. I can't help but think they'd be nearing doing some test runs at this point with final materials to see if they need to tweak assembly. If they make that date, I'm now inclined to skip the first batch because I'm just not entirely confident they'll have all the kinks ironed out in the first run. Also, rather than build up stock for a full release without long waits, my guess it's going to trickle out. They had said that date was "conservative" but I can't help but think we won't see wide availability for weeks after that. Sigh.
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Christophe Deshoux

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Re: BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostTue Jul 24, 2018 7:05 am

I think Blackmagic will have a great interest in this time keeping his promises.
The Blackmagic Pocket is their product that remains by far the most popular and the 4K version is eagerly awaited.
Personally for the first time I placed a pre-order ...
Will the first models delivered be final versions? ... Yes, physically, but for the firmware, you can be sure that it will take months ... maybe a year, before everything is reliable, stable.
We are all in the beta-test generation!
What worries me is that there will be no Metabones Speedbooster compatible available
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Ryan Payne

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Re: BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostTue Jul 24, 2018 9:40 am

Christophe Deshoux wrote:What worries me is that there will be no Metabones Speedbooster compatible available


I believe reps have said they've tried it with the Metabones Ultra and it works fine.

I intend to usse the Viltrox EF-m2 since it's too cheap to overlook. I asked if it worked for the current BMPCC and updated for the BMPCC4k.

"Dear Customer,

Yes. Our newest EF-M2 can support the current BMPCC already, our engineer had tested. We are not sure if it is also suitable for the upcoming BMPCC 4K. WE will wait for the customer's feedback.

Best Regards
VILTROX
"

So you can assume that if the optics for the Ultra work fine then a firmware update to the Viltrox should be all that's needed.

But I too plan on waiting out the first batch and letting others beta test. But I do want some of that cripsy 4k with cinematic goodness, I'm finding my current pocket get softer and softer the more I view 4k footage haha. The file sizes will kill me though.
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Sean van Berlo

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Re: BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostTue Jul 24, 2018 10:23 am

I'd wait for Metabones to get their hands on the device before you buy the speedbooster. While their normal speedboosters are technically compatible with the pocket for example, the different sensor glass Blackmagic uses introduces corner aberrations, which necessitated a new speedbooster.

Blackmagic obviously has an incentive to say the speedbooster ultra works (which it technically might) because they want to port GH users into their ecosystem.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostTue Jul 24, 2018 10:58 am

I would have expected sample footage by now.

They should be arranging stockpile manufacturing, due to the price. But the sensor samples from the 4kp100 E2 look nice, and it's coming maybe sooner. How come they didn't use that sensor? I got to admit that buying this over a gh5 is a no brainer, except that the gh5 gives you more convenience and resolution for stills. That's a bit of a crunch considering the fo factor and price. An 8k version down sampled to 4k video, but 8k stills, would have been great. But even at 20mp, you would have significant stills resolution.
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Savannah Miller

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Re: BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostTue Jul 24, 2018 12:37 pm

Wayne are you referring to the Z-Cam E2? They are using a similar sensor.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostWed Jul 25, 2018 1:13 pm

There are a number of Sony sensors of this s size, and as far as I know BM hasn't said which. I frankly wish they had chosen a higher res 1incher, and made this into a micro with stills format handle case with extra batteries etc. For $1000. Then you could go small or large.

Anyway, they are running their sensor a lot faster.
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Cary Knoop

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Re: BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostMon Jul 30, 2018 1:19 am

September of not it would be nice, by this time, to see some raw out of camera test footage. :)
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Savannah Miller

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Re: BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostMon Jul 30, 2018 3:25 am

Blackmagic has not said which sensor they are using, but I believe it should be similar to the one in the other similarly specced cameras in the sub $2000 price range. In exactly the size of sensor that Blackmagic is using, there's only one 4/3 inch starvis sensor that matches that size and features.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostMon Jul 30, 2018 4:06 am

Is it starvis?
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Christophe Deshoux

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Re: BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostMon Jul 30, 2018 10:40 am

I think Blackmagic is very much on this new camera.
What is surprising is their strength, is to sell at such a price ... RAW, 4K ...

I think that Blackmagic, despite the large number of pre-orders, will be able to provide the camera in September ... and I think that its sensor (yes, most likely the Sony Starvis, but with the colors of Blackmagic ...) will be very good ... and that , despite a very ugly design (DSLR !!!! Grrrrhh ...), will be a worldwide success.

This will first of all cause problems for Red, Canon, Sony ... but also Kinefinity ... and I guess they expect it ...
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rick.lang

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Re: BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostMon Jul 30, 2018 2:12 pm

A month or two to go and it’s like time is standing still waiting for the footage samples and the camera to drop. Best to think of other pressing matters... c’mon now, I can’t think what could be more pressing than this!


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Christophe Deshoux

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Re: BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostMon Jul 30, 2018 3:39 pm

The only real thing to wait before all, these first footages of this camera ... and for an availability announced for September, and still no official image official ... I wonder if it is positive or negative ...
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Re: BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostMon Jul 30, 2018 9:07 pm

Christophe Deshoux wrote:I wonder if it is positive or negative ...



It's ambiguous.
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Cary Knoop

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Re: BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostMon Jul 30, 2018 10:07 pm

Jim Giberti wrote:
Christophe Deshoux wrote:I wonder if it is positive or negative ...

It's ambiguous.

There is only one thing that is worse than the camera being late and that is if it is released on time but not ready yet!

And if someone needs a beta tester, I can drop into the Fremont office any time...... ;)
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Re: BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostTue Jul 31, 2018 2:58 am

I had my BMPCC die on me in the Texas heat last month. I weighed what to do but it was a short hesitation. I have a trip in August so I went out and bought a used Pocket to get me through. I bought my first Pocket in the original run so know that dates can be...not as exacting as we might like. I'm not on preorder on the new one either since I want to see how it goes. I got a lot of use out of my first one and this used one seems lightly used so I'm hoping to get through the waiting period. As soon as the new ones start shipping I'll probably wait a bit and then order. I loved my Pocket and there was a brief thought after it died of "I could buy" <whatever> but I put those away. I love the footage and am comfortable with the workflow so it was easier to buy a used one to keep going. I look forward to the bigger screen and better low light capability of the new one. But I wasn't figuring on it being here in September.
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Andres Guzman

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BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostTue Jul 31, 2018 3:22 am

Chris Leutger wrote:...and bought a used Pocket to get me through.


Chris, I just PM’d regarding your BMPCC.

All,
I remember getting impatient over the URSA Mini. Rick, you even told me to hold on just a bit longer. I went with a Canon C100MkII and a few days later, the URSA Mini was finally released. I love Canon’s color science and have some LUTs I look forward to porting over to the BMPCC 4K. Now... If I could just figure out how to do that... Any input welcome.

-Andres
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rick.lang

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BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostTue Jul 31, 2018 3:31 am

Andres, “if you can just wait a little longer,” there will be a lot of LUTs designed to complement the BMPCC4K and BMD Colour 4!

{Forgive me, couldn’t resist.}


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Andres Guzman

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Re: BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostTue Jul 31, 2018 3:33 am

Well played sir. Well played.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostWed Aug 01, 2018 7:46 am

Christophe Deshoux wrote:I think Blackmagic is very much on this new camera.
What is surprising is their strength, is to sell at such a price ... RAW, 4K ...

I think that Blackmagic, despite the large number of pre-orders, will be able to provide the camera in September ... and I think that its sensor (yes, most likely the Sony Starvis, but with the colors of Blackmagic ...) will be very good ... and that , despite a very ugly design (DSLR !!!! Grrrrhh ...), will be a worldwide success.

This will first of all cause problems for Red, Canon, Sony ... but also Kinefinity ... and I guess they expect it ...


From memory, it uses a special colour filter. To get 'bm' colour may require an expensive special filter to be made, and I forget how much the last quote I head of was, but it was big biccies. I think the filter is directly in lived in performance, and think John might have indicated disdain for the results for filters like this on my 8k thread. I know that there was at least one conversation based on hdr filtering. BM might not use it because of quality, but I would consider it as long as I got good enough quality, as I would be aiming to get good enough or better rather than pristine to perfect. It's like the original pocket, it may not be perfect but it looks beautiful (though I would like more neutral colour outside of any filter pattern compromise from special filter tiles).

Will the 4k untouched raw look like the pocket fullhd untouched raw, I expect that it maybe don't hold your breath.
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Re: BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostWed Aug 01, 2018 10:57 am

You say that this special filter is too expensive for the Pocket 4k but then go on to say that the Pocket, which is cheaper, does have it? I don't follow.
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Rakesh Malik

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Re: BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostWed Aug 01, 2018 4:08 pm

Sean van Berlo wrote:You say that this special filter is too expensive for the Pocket 4k but then go on to say that the Pocket, which is cheaper, does have it?


For a one-off job it would probably be prohibitively expensive, but BMD probably has enough preorders in to get some pretty good volume rates.

THAT is the secret to making semiconductor manufacturing economical: you either make a small number of relatively specialized dies for a customer and charge a massive premium (Phase One, Hasselblad) or you make a huge volume of them and drive the average price per unit down, and sell millions for a smaller margin but bigger profit.

Either way, Sony wins, and Phase One gets the best photographic sensor that money can buy. And charges its six customers through the nose for the privilege of shooting with it...

I don't follow.


Don't worry; neither does he.
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Re: BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostWed Aug 01, 2018 4:13 pm

I don't follow.


Don't worry; neither does he.


Well played sir! :mrgreen:
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Wayne Steven

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Re: BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostFri Aug 03, 2018 1:04 pm

Ok, I've reported you two disrespectful bean brains. How dare you come sniffing around causing trouble for your own amusement, after Rakesh copied my ussual argument as his own. It is extremely unlikely you know more than me, or have the talent to decide so.

Sean, it is very simple, don't listen to either of these two. When the sensor you are buying uses the normal prepaid colour filter
design, the cost is built in. By selling many manufacturers the same colour filter design on the same sensor, the cost is reduced per sensor. So say the pocket 4k has one type of colour filter for consumer video and the pocket used another for machine vision
To get close to the look of the old pocket, you would need to especially create a colour filter to do so for the 4k, that costs heaps as a special job for a 4k and sales aren't enough, but little if it's standard on the pocket, or you simply colour correct as :idea: much as you can in software. So, therefore the BMPCC look might be expensive if you have to remake the filter specially to do it. But, if the sensor has another similar filter available as standard, then it could be a lot cheaper.

If only I had posted a link to that nano camera that fits in you ear, as proof you design to form on the high volume end too, as desired. It might have stopped them patting each other on their backs. But, remember simplistic universes versus complex reality, who are you going trust, Apple or Google?
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Re: BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostFri Aug 03, 2018 1:17 pm

I'd never heard of that, thanks for the clarification. I guess we'll have to wait for the Pocket to ship until we'll find out for sure what the 'look' of the camera is. I am undeniably of the mind that all previous Blackmagic camera's look very, very different from Panasonic and Sony video, and I would be saddened to see that change.
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Re: BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostFri Aug 03, 2018 3:55 pm

Let's play nice folks. I'd really prefer to not to say it again. :roll:
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Re: BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostSat Aug 04, 2018 2:19 pm

Thanks.

Sean. Panasonic and Sony have their own looks built in. They don't even need a special filter. The image quality in the consumer siace are often reduced.

On the other thread somebody quoted that whoever at BM, said it was an off the shelf sensor etc. Which indicates it might not use any custom colour filter. So unless it is a chip that has a filter that gets you near the old pocket, don't hold your breath too..uch. Maybe software can get it close
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Re: BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostSat Aug 04, 2018 2:58 pm

Although, it is possible that the silicon is off-the-shelf in the sense that Sony would sell the sensor they developed to other camera manufacturers, but that language doesn’t preclude a custom colour filter array being part of the sensor assembly. Or I suppose even a custom low pass filter which BMD wouldn’t want included. Seems to me a BMD designed CFA would make their goal to have a unique look easier so that’s my suspicion.


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Re: BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostSun Aug 05, 2018 12:23 pm

I thought the talk was like it was standard including colour filter Rick?
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rick.lang

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Re: BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostSun Aug 05, 2018 10:42 pm

Wayne, in this thread I think we are referring to software/firmware. There’s another thread where we are referring to hardware (sensor and possibly custom colour filter array. The two are certainly linked but if BMD is successful at matching colour from two distinctly different sensors, using a custom CFA might be a good starting point instead of relying on solely software. I’m sure their goal has been to facilitate seamlessly intercutting frames from the BMPCC4K and the 4.6K cinema sensors as far as that becomes possible within the limitations of the dynamic range.


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Re: BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostMon Aug 06, 2018 8:20 am

Talk about custom CF in this thread, so I said that somebody was talking about an interview elsewhere that I thought indicated the contrary, as the argument was then mute. That sub topic.
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rick.lang

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BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostMon Aug 06, 2018 2:40 pm

Would be simple for BMD to step in and resolve the speculation with a few statements that describe the details of the new camera. But where’s the fun in that? It’s human nature to speculate, argue from evidence if available and substitute informed conjecture where it’s not.

Our Cinematography section of the forum is a microcosm of the current discussions among physicists about the role of dark energy as a cosmological constant and whether or not it’s sufficient to explain the increased rate of expansion of our universe or if we need quintessence. Now God could easily step in set the record straight, but where’s the fun in that?

Please show some mercy, dear reader, and don’t get me started on string theory in this thread! Back to our regular programming, pass the soma and tortilla chips!


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Re: BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostMon Aug 06, 2018 3:14 pm

BM could have waited to announce this camera when it was actually ready to ship, sparing itself from all this speculation, but where's the fun in that?
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Re: BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostMon Aug 06, 2018 3:22 pm

Gene Kochanowsky wrote:BM could have waited to announce this camera when it was actually ready to ship, sparing itself from all this speculation, but where's the fun in that?


Or, more to the point, where's the marketing strategy in that?

BM, like any smart business, doesn't want to be "spared" from any speculation. Ongoing discussion of a coming product serves a few strategic marketing purposes.

It's all good.
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Re: BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostMon Aug 06, 2018 3:26 pm

It's only a good strategy if BM does what they say they're gonna do. Otherwise it's a terrible idea from a marketing perspective. Don't call your shots if you can't make them happen.
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Re: BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostMon Aug 06, 2018 3:39 pm

Gene Kochanowsky wrote:BM could have waited to announce this camera when it was actually ready to ship, sparing itself from all this speculation, but where's the fun in that?


Agreed, Gene. It’s certainly a marketing strategy mentioned by Jim as buzz is very important to sales and pre-sales that may help them gauge future demand. I always appreciate seeing products announced in April for delivery in the next three to six months. It’s good for my financial planning. Anything longer than six months becomes more of a burden than a blessing and slowly drains the fun of it all. Delivery without advertised features... enough said on that already.


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Re: BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostMon Aug 06, 2018 3:48 pm

Most companies announce a product months before it is available - the only exception used to be Apple with about a two week preorder window. BDM did an "announce and buy" with the UMP, which was great, but that's the exception, not the standard.

I agree that it would be nice for the camera to be out now or to have footage, but I'm not worried about my preorder - I'd rather have a great camera than a rushed product.
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Re: BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostMon Aug 06, 2018 3:50 pm

The next marketing opportunity of presenting the new camera will be IBC 2018 in Amsterdam mid September.
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Re: BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostMon Aug 06, 2018 3:59 pm

michaeldhead wrote:I'd rather have a great camera than a rushed product.

Indeed, succumbing to pressure and delivering a product that is not ready is the worst mistake.

I would argue there is no great rush, a $1300 raw dual ISO camera is currently chartless terrain. The Panasonics and Sonys are still hanging on to the "it's a photo camera with video features and H.264/265 is just fine" so there is no competition.

Closest I could think of is the Z-Cam E2, which is currently considerably more expensive and to me, it is not clear if they support even raw and log and will release the camera with well-defined color science.
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Re: BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostMon Aug 06, 2018 4:04 pm

The Ursa Broadcast was also an, “announce and buy” release...”
BM’s Broadcast Line tends to follow this, while,the Cine csmera go through a announce, wat, wait, and maybe release soon... :roll:
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Re: BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostMon Aug 06, 2018 4:12 pm

Cary Knoop wrote:
michaeldhead wrote:I'd rather have a great camera than a rushed product.

Indeed, succumbing to pressure and delivering a product that is not ready is the worst mistake.

I would argue there is no great rush, a $1300 raw dual ISO camera is currently chartless terrain. The Panasonics and Sonys are still hanging on to the "it's a photo camera with video features and H.264/265 is just fine" so there is no competition.

Closest I could think of is the Z-Cam E2, which is currently considerably more expensive and to me, it is not clear if they support even raw and log and will release the camera with well-defined color science.


Agreed - I know BMD took a lot of flak for slow releases on the early cinema cameras, but I think they've learned their lessons from that.

BMD makes cinema cameras, not still cameras that happen to take video - and I'm looking forward to getting back to a dedicated cinema camera (even with a DSLR inspired body). But they also have a good foundation of camera design and raw implementation - the dual ISO is the new territory for them, and I imagine that they want to absolutely nail the 4.0 Color Science with the dual ISO before releasing any sample footage - and I don't fault them at all for that. That's part of what they're known for - great images. They can't give that up.
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Re: BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostMon Aug 06, 2018 4:15 pm

Agreed... :D
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Rakesh Malik

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Re: BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostMon Aug 06, 2018 5:24 pm

rick.lang wrote:Would be simple for BMD to step in and resolve the speculation with a few statements that describe the details of the new camera. But where’s the fun in that? It’s human nature to speculate, argue from evidence if available and substitute informed conjecture where it’s not.


Besides, BMD revealing that would be bad for business. There's also the possibility that BMD could switch from one partner to another (not terribly likely in this case, since it's not like there are 7 large, super-high-tech semiconductor companies making sensors that can do at Sony's scale as is the case for, say, the custom x86 processor that AMD makes for the XBox and PlayStation consoles.

Our Cinematography section of the forum is a microcosm of the current discussions among physicists about the role of dark energy as a cosmological constant and whether or not it’s sufficient to explain the increased rate of expansion of our universe or if we need quintessence. Now God could easily step in set the record straight, but where’s the fun in that?


Well, if he did that then he'd be proving beyond a doubt that he exists. By so doing, he'd eliminate the need for faith, and without faith there is no god, and therefore he'd cease to exist ;)

(Paraphrased from Hitchhiker's Guide)

Please show some mercy, dear reader, and don’t get me started on string theory in this thread! Back to our regular programming, pass the soma and tortilla chips!


But string theory is so much fun! Until the laymen's heads start exploding. Though sometimes that's fun too, as long as it's caught on film.
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Re: BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostMon Aug 06, 2018 5:32 pm

michaeldhead wrote:Agreed - I know BMD took a lot of flak for slow releases on the early cinema cameras, but I think they've learned their lessons from that.


I think so too, especially after the 4.6K launch fiasco, which I can tell you with some certainty lead to a lot of BMD customers moving to Red on top of generating a lot of flak.

Grant Petty did mention that during the press conference; he also said that the only reason that BMD was revealing that camera at NAB was that so many people were asking about a new Pocket.

I imagine that they want to absolutely nail the 4.0 Color Science with the dual ISO before releasing any sample footage - and I don't fault them at all for that. That's part of what they're known for - great images. They can't give that up.


Yes -- that's the big advantage of having the DaVinci team on board. Seriously, why else do you think that BMD bought DaVinci? It wasn't just for the market share... it's probably a lot less profitable on its own now than it was before BMD bought it.

But I'd guess that the combination of having DaVinci's color science team on board plus the network effect are making Resolve VERY profitable indirectly, or else it wouldn't be such a hot item back at BMD Central right now.

I hope that BMD launches the Pocket 4K on schedule, even if the pre-order queue consumes the entire initial production launch, just for the credibility boost it will give BMD for succeeding. I haven't preordered one so I don't expect to be able to get one in September because it's probably going to be hugely popular if it does ship when BMD predicts.
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Jim Giberti

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Re: BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostMon Aug 06, 2018 6:19 pm

Gene Kochanowsky wrote:It's only a good strategy if BM does what they say they're gonna do. Otherwise it's a terrible idea from a marketing perspective. Don't call your shots if you can't make them happen.



Well, it's sort of a microcosm of the larger issue of inegrity and trust, isn't it?

Personally I don't preorder new technology for my company. I did with this camera though.
I did because I've been using Blackmagic gear in our studios for years and started with their cameras with the BMCC and BMPCC and later the UMP.

I own two shops - a creative/production firm and a strategic consulting firm.
My years of history with BM has given me every reason to have confidence in this new camera that I know has been in development for a very long time.

I trust my judgement because it's essentially my stock and trade on a day to day basis with clients around the world.

What they're doing makes sense to me on every level, and I have every reason to believe the new P4k will be a genuinely next level camera in the ways that we want it to be, at my shop. But I understand if you have reservations.
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rick.lang

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Re: BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostTue Aug 07, 2018 1:13 am

I sense a disturbance in the dark energy quintessence. It feels like... optimism.


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Denny Smith

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Re: BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostTue Aug 07, 2018 1:40 am

Yes Rick, I feel it also... :roll:
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Gene Kochanowsky

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Re: BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostTue Aug 07, 2018 3:10 am

Jim Giberti wrote:
Gene Kochanowsky wrote:It's only a good strategy if BM does what they say they're gonna do. Otherwise it's a terrible idea from a marketing perspective. Don't call your shots if you can't make them happen.


I trust my judgement because it's essentially my stock and trade on a day to day basis with clients around the world.



I'm just remembering the past and all the people that said the very same thing on this very forum and were so badly disappointed at the endless string of delays. Some were harmed by it because they made plans based on BM's announcements. From a project management perspective it was a disaster. BM has a terrible record of predicting when a product will ship. They really shouldn't say anything until product is ready to go out the door.

Especially in this case, there is sooo much pent up demand for this camera with nothing even close to it, that pre-marketing is already done. Whatever their initial build quantity, I doubt it would last a week.

It's also interesting that the retail price of the BMPCC has only dropped by $50 for a camera that will essentially be redundant next month. I would have expected more aggressive pricing to move that inventory if indeed the new model is to become available next month.
Last edited by Gene Kochanowsky on Tue Aug 07, 2018 3:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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