BMPCC 4K…for september ?

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michaeldhead

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Re: BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostTue Aug 07, 2018 2:08 pm

Gene Kochanowsky wrote:I'm just remembering the past and all the people that said the very same thing on this very forum and were so badly disappointed at the endless string of delays. Some were harmed by it because they made plans based on BM's announcements. From a project management perspective it was a disaster. BM has a terrible record of predicting when a product will ship. They really shouldn't say anything until product is ready to go out the door.

Especially in this case, there is sooo much pent up demand for this camera with nothing even close to it, that pre-marketing is already done. Whatever their initial build quantity, I doubt it would last a week.

It's also interesting that the retail price of the BMPCC has only dropped by $50 for a camera that will essentially be redundant next month. I would have expected more aggressive pricing to move that inventory if indeed the new model is to become available next month.


"We're announcing the Ursa Mini Pro - available now"

"We're announcing the Ursa Broadcast - available now"

I, personally, am not worried.
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Re: BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostTue Aug 07, 2018 2:54 pm

rick.lang wrote:Would be simple for BMD to step in and resolve the speculation with a few statements that describe the details of the new camera. But where’s the fun in that? It’s human nature to speculate, argue from evidence if available and substitute informed conjecture where it’s not.

Our Cinematography section of the forum is a microcosm of the current discussions among physicists about the role of dark energy as a cosmological constant and whether or not it’s sufficient to explain the increased rate of expansion of our universe or if we need quintessence. Now God could easily step in set the record straight, but where’s the fun in that?

Please show some mercy, dear reader, and don’t get me started on string theory in this thread! Back to our regular programming, pass the soma and tortilla chips!


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Lol. You expect BM to give details? Their guys are busy giving details at B&H. But BM did say something, that was the point. If the wind is definitely going in some direction, who am I to debate otherwise, so I might as well give up and talk about something else.

Who says He hasn't? But whoe's listening to hear Him.
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Gene Kochanowsky

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Re: BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostTue Aug 07, 2018 2:58 pm

michaeldhead wrote:"We're announcing the Ursa Mini Pro - available now"

"We're announcing the Ursa Broadcast - available now"

I, personally, am not worried.


That is my point, with those products they didn't announce until they could ship. BM didn't do that with this camera.
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Re: BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostTue Aug 07, 2018 3:02 pm

Gene Kochanowsky wrote:It's also interesting that the retail price of the BMPCC has only dropped by $50 for a camera that will essentially be redundant next month. I would have expected more aggressive pricing to move that inventory if indeed the new model is to become available next month.


I wouldn't mind buying one for $50 though.
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michaeldhead

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Re: BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostTue Aug 07, 2018 3:43 pm

Gene Kochanowsky wrote:
michaeldhead wrote:"We're announcing the Ursa Mini Pro - available now"

"We're announcing the Ursa Broadcast - available now"

I, personally, am not worried.


That is my point, with those products they didn't announce until they could ship. BM didn't do that with this camera.


But that is the exception for a majority of producers - a majority announce a product at a trade show, with a preorder announced and an expected release date.

Like I said, I'm not worried.
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Gene Kochanowsky

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Re: BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostTue Aug 07, 2018 5:41 pm

michaeldhead wrote:But that is the exception for a majority of producers - a majority announce a product at a trade show, with a preorder announced and an expected release date.

Like I said, I'm not worried.


I appreciate that you are not worried, but BM has a particularly bad reputation in terms of meeting expected release dates, hence they do well in that regard only when they hold off announcing until they can ship.
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Re: BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostTue Aug 07, 2018 5:48 pm

Gene Kochanowsky wrote:I appreciate that you are not worried, but BM has a particularly bad reputation in terms of meeting expected release dates, hence they do well in that regard only when they hold off announcing until they can ship.


I understand that the early cameras had release date problems, but they havn't had those problem over several camera releases - although because of primacy, they will always have that as a shadow over their announcements.

At NAB, Grant Petty said the hardware design was complete, just the final body composition needed to hashed out. I'm sure they took that into account when announcing their release date. While I could be wrong, I'm sure BMD is well aware of how their early camera release problems affected their corporate perception, and I think they will be able to put out the cameras as planned (in fact, someone at a more recent trade show said a BDM presenter said it might be this month, but we don't know for sure). I'm sure that if they miss the September date, they know they will never hear the end of it, but we'll see.
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Re: BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostTue Aug 07, 2018 6:25 pm

Perhaps the final Resolve 15 release will be a heads up, even if only by a couple of days. As bad as it is to miss a date, it's far worse (as we all know) to ship something that doesn't work. BMD have improved their announce/ship performance over the years but I am still giving them until Sept. 30 at 11:59 p.m. on Baker Island (UTC-12). You can get 95% of a product done and still have a long way to go. That last 5% is a killer.

As a hobbyist, I'm happy to wait for the initial reviews. I was glad I did that with the original Pocket as it allowed them to solve the black sun problem and add RAW recording.
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Re: BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostTue Aug 07, 2018 6:40 pm

I decided against waiting although that was my initial approach. The reason is I can really use this camera for a wedding reception/dance late September. The URSA Mini 4.6K is best for daylight work but when the sun is going down, I’d like to have 3200 ISO help. If it doesn’t happen, I’ll use the Mini once again (no one has complained about too much noise for dance footage but I’d rather have much less of it).

I suspect many of those who have not preordered will be fortunate to get their camera in 2018. At least by that time I’m hoping BMD adds a 2K recording mode to their 4K camera. Seems a no brainer to me. DCI 4K is great but the option to downscale ProRes in camera to 2K or shoot raw in a 2K window is greater.


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Re: BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostTue Aug 07, 2018 7:35 pm

Steve Holmlund wrote:I am still giving them until Sept. 30 at 11:59 p.m. on Baker Island (UTC-12).

Haha.
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Re: BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostWed Aug 08, 2018 3:01 pm

rick.lang wrote:I suspect many of those who have not preordered will be fortunate to get their camera in 2018. At least by that time I’m hoping BMD adds a 2K recording mode to their 4K camera. Seems a no brainer to me. DCI 4K is great but the option to downscale ProRes in camera to 2K or shoot raw in a 2K window is greater.


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Can you not do that already? You can do 2K window and 2K downsample in prores. I'm pretty sure you can do 2K windowed prores as well since it windows when doing 120fps.

Or are you referring to DCI 2K and not 1920x1080?
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Re: BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostWed Aug 08, 2018 4:06 pm

We were referring to a full DCI 2K in Camera windo, similar to thr HD window, but slightly larger size, that in turn could be rendered as HD in Resolve for a nice clean HD image, similar to how the original BMCC worked, which had a DCI 2K sensor.
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Re: BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostWed Aug 08, 2018 4:16 pm

Denny Smith wrote:We were referring to a full DCI 2K in Camera windo, similar to thr HD window, but slightly larger size, that in turn could be rendered as HD in Resolve for a nice clean HD image, similar to how the original BMCC worked, which had a DCI 2K sensor.
Cheers



Full HD: 1920x1080

2K DCI: 2048x1080

The only difference between 2K DCI and Full HD is 128 vertical lines of resolution. No difference in horizontal lines of resolution.

If you want great Full HD from downrez, shoot 4k.

Although keep this in mind, too:

UHD: 3840x2160

4k DCI: 4096x2160
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Re: BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostWed Aug 08, 2018 4:28 pm

michaeldhead wrote:If you want great Full HD from downrez, shoot 4k.

Exactly, why anyone would want to use windowed mode on this camera is beyond me.

Recording with the full sensor and scaling the image down in post will give a better quality and less noise.
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Re: BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostWed Aug 08, 2018 4:32 pm

rick.lang wrote:I suspect many of those who have not preordered will be fortunate to get their camera in 2018.


I have a feeling that you're right about that. This is going to be a popular camera... probably quite a bit more popular than the earlier Pocket.

The preorder queues are probably quite long by now!
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Re: BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostWed Aug 08, 2018 4:32 pm

Yes, but the DCI 2K window will allow the use of S16 zoom and prime lenses, as these will just cover the 2K window. I know, it is just squeezing a little more resolution and a window closer to a native S16 image area for best lens coverage, and max AOV. It is more about having more lens choices, and keeping max amount of resolution. The HD window is much smaller than a S16 gates size, and is closer to Stsndard 16mmor 2/3rds.
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Re: BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostWed Aug 08, 2018 4:42 pm

Denny Smith wrote:Yes, but the DCI 2K window will allow the use of S16 zoom and prime lenses, as these will just cover the 2K window. I know, it is just squeezing a little more resolution and a window closer to a native S16 image area for best lens coverage, and max AOV. It is more about having more lens choices, and keeping max amount of resolution. The HD window is much smaller than a S16 gates size, and is closer to Stsndard 16mmor 2/3rds.
Cheers


I can get behind that because I like to have options. I've just seen too many people that don't understand the difference between 2K DCI and HD - and I guess I don't think that the small amount of vertical lines of resolution will make much of a difference, but that is just my opinion and I have not conducted any tests to that effect.
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Re: BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostWed Aug 08, 2018 5:22 pm

I agree, the two resolutions are very close, like the original BMCC and Pocket Camera, but as while the Cinema Camera, the DCI 2K will have a little more fine detail visible over the straight HD resolution.
But, like yiu said, it is more about having choices... :mrgreen:
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BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostWed Aug 08, 2018 8:23 pm

I do understand the difference between DCI 2K that I was hoping would eventually be available and HD. Denny is correct, I’m looking for flexibility. I want to shoot DCI 4K and DCI 2K.

A drawback if DCI 2K is not going to be available is that it’s not clear to me how BMD will handle in-camera downscaling of ProRes. On their other cameras, such as with the 4.6K sensor,the open gate is in a 16:9 aspect ratio and downscaling to HD work. The Pocket4K open gate is DCI 4K and that’s a problem in-camera downscaling ProRes if 2K is not a recording option. If my clients want 2K or HD, I’d prefer the camera do the downscaling as then my media can record twice as long.

I also may have the option of shooting anamorphic using the new SLR Magic 1.33x-65 adapter for my APO PL primes (with the optional mFT adapter) to achieve 2.37:1 widescreen on the Pocket4K. With that Anamorphot adapter on the APO PL primes, my angle of view from the Pocket4K DCI 4K will match the open gate angle of view of the URSA Mini 4.6K cameras which is exciting! An appropriate Metabones SpeedBooster is yet another option where 2K will widen that angle of view.

Right now I’m planning how I’ll use the camera. And I’d rather not be limited to HD if DCI 2K is just a few lines of additional code (that already exist).
Last edited by rick.lang on Wed Aug 08, 2018 8:39 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostWed Aug 08, 2018 8:28 pm

Savannah Miller wrote:... Or are you referring to DCI 2K and not 1920x1080?


Apologies, Savannah. I often try not to be ambiguous and say 2K 2048x1080. Or UHD 3840x2160 or 4.6K 4608x2592. I was just being lazy, but I’ll try to be clear in the future.


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Re: BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostWed Aug 08, 2018 8:42 pm

Rick, DCI 4K is 17:9, but the camera also shoots 16:9 UHD, and my guess is full sensor HD downscaled will be from the UHD window, and not full 4K — but, I could be wrong. :roll:
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Re: BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostWed Aug 08, 2018 9:05 pm

Denny Smith wrote:Rick, DCI 4K is 17:9, but the camera also shoots 16:9 UHD, and my guess is full sensor HD downscaled will be from the UHD window, and not full 4K — but, I could be wrong. :roll:
Cheers


The Pocket 4K specs do list 4K DCI as a recording option, but not 2K DCI. I wish they would allows a 2K DCI option, but we'll see.
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Re: BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostThu Aug 09, 2018 1:06 am

2048x1152 2K 16:9 often looks worse than 1080p because of the image filtering required to downscale.
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Re: BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostThu Aug 09, 2018 4:50 am

That depends on the sensor and how the down sampling is done. The BMCC DCI 2K down sampled to HD in Resolve was very nice.
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Re: BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostThu Aug 09, 2018 7:06 am

Savannah Miller wrote:2048x1152 2K 16:9 often looks worse than 1080p because of the image filtering required to downscale.


That’s 2K with the 4.6K sensor. On the BMPCC4K I’m referring to adding the ability to downscale in camera from the open gate sensor 4K 4096x2160 to 2K 2048x1080.


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Re: BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostThu Aug 09, 2018 10:32 am

Denny Smith wrote:That depends on the sensor and how the down sampling is done. The BMCC DCI 2K down sampled to HD in Resolve was very nice.
Cheers

The BMCC Sensor is bigger than 2k (2400x1350 or 2,5k if you want). I think, that's why the downsampling works so well.

Gruß,
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Re: BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostThu Aug 09, 2018 3:20 pm

michaeldhead wrote:
Gene Kochanowsky wrote:I appreciate that you are not worried, but BM has a particularly bad reputation in terms of meeting expected release dates, hence they do well in that regard only when they hold off announcing until they can ship.


I understand that the early cameras had release date problems, but they havn't had those problem over several camera releases - although because of primacy, they will always have that as a shadow over their announcements.

At NAB, Grant Petty said the hardware design was complete, just the final body composition needed to hashed out. I'm sure they took that into account when announcing their release date. While I could be wrong, I'm sure BMD is well aware of how their early camera release problems affected their corporate perception, and I think they will be able to put out the cameras as planned (in fact, someone at a more recent trade show said a BDM presenter said it might be this month, but we don't know for sure). I'm sure that if they miss the September date, they know they will never hear the end of it, but we'll see.


Not just their early cameras, the Ursa Mini was something like 9 months late and the 4.6k turrent for the URSA was never even released. BM was staying they were still working on it only a few months ago until they quietly killed it off. I am not positive but I don't recall BM ever releasing a camera on time that was not ready to ship when it was announced.

Moral of the story is BM has a bad track record for releasing cameras on time, has a bad track record of those cameras being complete and production ready at release and bad track record of being upfront and communicating about anything. In short, don't count on this camera being released on time and don't count on it being production ready. Don't trust the shipping dates on the BM website even when there are updated and don't expect them to communicate anything about the status of the camera.

If it does come on time great it will be a nice surprise for you, if it doesn't you won't be dissapointed as much. This is the reality of doing business with BM until they prove otherwise.
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Re: BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostThu Aug 09, 2018 4:44 pm

I looked at Grant Petty’s video from March 17, 2016 I think it was where he mentioned the URSA Mini 4.6K was ‘shipping.’ Any innocent might think that meant your vendor had the cameras and they were sending them to customers. But it appeared as though he meant the taxi in Singapore had left the factory with a camera and was on its way to a ship waiting in the harbour. After many taxi rides from the factory, the ship might set sail depending upon what other unrelated cargo they may have been waiting for. Then a ship or an airliner made its long journey across the seven seas to the regional centres and from there they began to be distributed to retailers via a complex process that ensured most vendors received a camera until that initial shipment was distributed. My recollection may not be perfect but I think that took two weeks so they could announce at NAB 2016, the camera announced at NAB 2015 was truly shipping. I was notified by my vendor a few days before NAB 2016, that they would have a camera for me. Took about another week to gather everything up, clear customs, and get it to me. All’s well that ends well. I still love Grant.
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Re: BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostThu Aug 09, 2018 4:56 pm

BM’s first csmera the BMCC was delayed, understandably, their first try at a camera.
The Pocket Cinema was released End of Aug. for first dealer sample shipment, and general shipments a month later
The Ursa Mini 4.6 and Micro Cinema csmera we’re delayed due to Rolling Shutter attempt, thst was the big one.
The rest of their cameras more or less, shipped within 30-days of their announcement. Out of their nine odd cameras, that’s six cameras out on time, vs three that were delayed. Yes, enough to give them the image, they do not meet their release dates, but actually, they have more often than not. :roll:
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Re: BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostThu Aug 09, 2018 6:07 pm

Though I wouldn't be surprised with a delay, I doubt we'll get the same kind of delay the Blackmagic Production 4K got, where they claimed it was releasing in the summer, but didn't say "1.5 years from now" summer. I think that one had the longest delay out of all the cameras.

That being said, I'm more concerned with the quality of the camera, and what is required. On paper every Blackmagic Camera seems amazing for the price, till you take it home, and discover stuff like the Black Sun effect. The sensor magenta issue. The noise issue. Terrible audio. 20 minute battery life. HDMI ports breaking off easily. Certain features not available yet at launch and will be added later. And then you find out about all the drawbacks that need speed boosters, external batteries, external monitor, etc.

By reputation, I'm more cautious with them. I wanna see all the pros and cons of the early adopters to make sure I'm making the right choice.
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Re: BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostThu Aug 09, 2018 6:38 pm

Duplicate, see below...
Last edited by Denny Smith on Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostThu Aug 09, 2018 6:41 pm

I hear what you are saying, it took six months of FW updates to bring the original Pocket camera up to full usability, and it still needed an EVF or a better monitor to use it out doors. But for its size and eventual features, it was a great little camera despite its design flaws, like the Micro HDMI and little power connectors. But still, used with care, it was a grand little camera.

The Blackhole in the sun thing was more of a BMCC issue, than the BMPC or Pocket Camera. But look how one “gotcha” lingers on, just like the magenta issue on the early Ursa Mini 4.6. None of the cameras released since, inusing new UM 4.6 have had this issue, but the perception is still there. :roll:

The Micro cameras also were excellent, and quite useable right out the door, no upgrades required, even though some nice to have features were added later with FW updates.
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Re: BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostThu Aug 09, 2018 6:51 pm

Exactly, Denny. It is unfortunate that people remember the negative so much longer and more prominently than the positive.
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BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostThu Aug 09, 2018 7:50 pm

And it would have been nice to know the real cause of the magenta issue on my of the relatively early URSA Mini 4.6K cameras. But BMD was quite good replacing multiple cameras if someone complained. I had the issue but noticed it was getting better over time.

My theory was it was a chemical wash normally used to treat or clean the sensor or the sensor glass that was likely applied too heavily and not applied evenly or the items were not stored properly or dried properly so that the chemical accumulated typically around the right side but could be like a hand or blotches. Someone was cutting corners and I don’t think it was BMD. Sony will do a great job with the new sensor so I’m not worrying about the BMPCC4K.

I don’t think I have any problem now on the 4.6K but I’m doing another open gate test today to check it out. Also need to prepare for a client shoot Friday.
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Re: BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostFri Aug 10, 2018 1:40 am

Probably the main reason I’m optimistic this time is they did not say “July”...
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Re: BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostFri Aug 10, 2018 1:47 am

Good point Steve...
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Re: BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostFri Aug 10, 2018 4:36 am

michaeldhead wrote:Exactly, Denny. It is unfortunate that people remember the negative so much longer and more prominently than the positive.

Yup, if you are gonna play with the big boyz, you gotta know that one 'awe sh*t' wipes out all your 'atta boys'.
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Re: BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostFri Aug 10, 2018 7:53 am

Unreal. People need to seperate genuine development issues (like sensor glass and coating issues) and development delays from real negative issues and deficiencies (like HDMI, USB 3, no TB3+, FPGA, size heat). One is an issue caused by trust in outside sources and developement and business related delays you expect on complex projects, the other design. If the same avoidable issues repeat, and unwarranted delays (like the pocket firmware update issues delayed for a new firmware architecture, then updates to be dumped).

Now, no samples from a completed camera, is strange at this stage, and makes me wonder what the footage might be like. A lot of other non design elements don't matter so much at this stage. If they come along and say we have an issue and we don't expect it to be finished this year because they stuffed up etc, then comment (they did say it was finished months back).
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Re: BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostSat Aug 11, 2018 3:02 am

Wayne Steven wrote:Unreal. People need to seperate genuine development issues (like sensor glass and coating issues) and development delays from real negative issues and deficiencies (like HDMI, USB 3, no TB3+, FPGA, size heat). One is an issue caused by trust in outside sources and developement and business related delays you expect on complex projects, the other design. If the same avoidable issues repeat, and unwarranted delays (like the pocket firmware update issues delayed for a new firmware architecture, then updates to be dumped).

You're absolutely correct, which is why it is foolish for BM to announce this camera before it is ready to ship. There is plenty of pent up demand for the pocket camera successor, so there was no need to pre-market this camera. They would have had more shock-and-awe if they had done it that way.
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Re: BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostSat Aug 11, 2018 10:06 am

I can understand why they might want to impress on the NAB crowd early. I suspect the time schedule for parts availability and manufacture was tight, so they weren't worried. But the pocket 4k has wider sales potential past cinema or provideo, so maybe that could have something to do with it aswell. But, some firmer specs and sample footage shows how much of a contender it might be, to decide to wait and go with it. That's more what I was concerned with after specs were set.

What's happening is the 8k market is launching now, and may include some prosumer and consumer cameras. But things like a xc15 like cinema camera rumoured to be out this year (an xc20 for earlier in the year was rumored before the cinema announcement). So, undercutting the competition's demand before people commit to buying them, and getting them to want to buy you instead, is a tactic.

If you want to speak of delays etc, speak of Red. The scarlet fixed disappeared before launch after so many delays where they went from pocket to camcorder to the next version, the laser, what happened to the redray player, etc. The extra wide sensor has fiinaly come out in another family. Now the hydrogen phone, which was finished ages ago and delayed due to contract negotiations with telecos, just had a month delay due to one bit out of spec in an FCC test according to an article I read. So not last year, or year before. And the photos of the internals look unremarkable to me. So there you go. Do we see such a high ratio of hyped up people going on about how bad all these delays and things are, like around here, no. They have tens of thousands users there too. One can spend years waiting to buy a single Red cancelled product and never buy one (maybe I should buy a Red emblem and stick it on a pocket 4k, if I buy one). Would you do that with freinds? I met a local guy here who knows Jim. Oh, he was talking to him in his lounge room, oh what reverence. That person is ok, but some make me sick. Sicophants, rather than to have real respect. I mean surely ths Jim must be a nice guy, pretty great, so forth. But you think, by the way these guys act, he's paranormal or something.
Last edited by Wayne Steven on Mon Aug 13, 2018 2:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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rick.lang

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BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostSun Aug 12, 2018 4:50 am

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Re: BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostMon Aug 13, 2018 2:23 pm

You mean like Tasers?
Last edited by Wayne Steven on Tue Aug 14, 2018 9:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: BMPCC 4K…for september ?

PostTue Aug 14, 2018 5:27 am

Thanks, Wayne. I wasn’t thinking about tasers, just glad with his zealous enthusiasm for cameras and other electronics, that he’s not into things that can harm anyone (things am not going to even type in a message as I might be flagged as a t e r r o r I s t ).


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