The Pocket 4K footage we've all been waiting for

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Jack Fairley

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Re: The Pocket 4K footage we've all been waiting for

PostFri Aug 31, 2018 6:21 pm

Rakesh Malik wrote:Save your money and upgrade to better software so that you can have more freedom in post for when you need it, and save disk space at the same time ;)

Oyvind Fiksdal wrote:I’ll jump to Resolve if I where you :)

Preaching to the choir. I have no love for Adobe, but I'm not the one who has to edit.
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Re: The Pocket 4K footage we've all been waiting for

PostFri Aug 31, 2018 8:26 pm

Denny Smith wrote:Yes Jim, I also have a similar workflow, and I am looking forward to seeing the new Pocket version of Extended Video also for fast turn around boradcast projects. Extended Video on the Ursa Boradcast looks good, imporved roll off on highlights, so the new Pocket should be better.
Cheers



Oh man, I'm becoming a new BM/MFT acolyte Denny :)
The fact that small lenses like the Oly Pros, and small cameras like the Micros have made shooting so much more liberating in alot of circumstances is one thing.

But the idea that BM is so focused on making their look and color science more flexible for different uses was literally the subject of a business meeting today.

With the near arrival of the P4ks, I was explaining how I expected them to streamline everything from eliminating dual audio, to faster field acquisition, to much faster post and distribution for us.

Can't wait, from a little kid standpoint and an adult business guy standpoint.
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Cris.Cunningham

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Re: The Pocket 4K footage we've all been waiting for

PostSat Sep 01, 2018 3:02 am

One thing that excites me about the footage I'm seeing is what I believe is called "motion cadence." Is that the proper term? Blackmagic has always impressed me with what's between the frames. I noticed it straight away in Mark Wyatte's footage. There is a foreground element at :09 seconds that glides past the lens... it's smooth as hell. Love it. Very cinematic. BM has won my heart with this in the past -- I'm excited to see it in the 4K pocket.

Anyone know what I'm talking about? Or how to describe that? It's very pleasing to my eye.

Non-the-less I'm awaiting my order and stoked about this purchase.

cris
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Re: The Pocket 4K footage we've all been waiting for

PostSat Sep 01, 2018 5:54 am

You an me both Jim, thanks for the compliment.
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Re: The Pocket 4K footage we've all been waiting for

PostSat Sep 01, 2018 1:39 pm

Oh, no Jim, don't mention that on a "cinema camera forum". If they invented something worse than Raw which got better results, they would likely be demanding that. "Oh yes, my new Flaw format takes 10 hours a minute to render out. Oh how great it is!'.

ProRes should deliver movie quality anyway, be that close to a Raw grade, and in 12bits. But how come ProRes is restricted to 10 bits? For hdr 10 bits must be the new 8-bit.
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The Pocket 4K footage we've all been waiting for

PostSat Sep 01, 2018 1:56 pm

I was really hoping the Pocket4K would do ProRes 444/XQ. I’m not giving up hope just yet as it may come in a future firmware update. But it may have other architectural reasons for its exclusion and if so, I’ll live with it. When you want 12bits, it still does raw so it’s not entirely missing. When you want 12bits and speed, who knows, maybe the addition of ProRes raw will do the trick. I’m sure that will come in time.

Wayne, I think you’re going to purchase this camera. It’s good to be aware of all the shortcomings, but eventually there’s more joy in stepping on the playing field and swinging for a home run than sitting in the stands and watching your team’s batter strike out.


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Re: The Pocket 4K footage we've all been waiting for

PostSat Sep 01, 2018 2:56 pm

I don't know yet, Alex still wants me to buy that 8k camera, but I can't afford to go to Europe for the upcoming stuff. Frankly, I'd rather a 3.5 inch cinema camera phone like I've posted in the thread I've just started, but nobody seems to want to listed to too much reason.
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Re: The Pocket 4K footage we've all been waiting for

PostSat Sep 01, 2018 3:06 pm

Rick, I think into future proofing my footage. If ProRes outputted neutral and a look I liked (interesting, can user look and luts be used?) in 12 bits+, I could literally just film and do some fine adjustments (on set, and as needed after) rather than do the full workflow on raw. Sure enough, I would want to do raw aswell, depending on the project, but video is king for non cinema. Look at all the great BBC stuff done on betacam digital. But the other things here now, is hdr (look at.the great stuff Netflix do) and consumer hdr tops put at 12 bits, so I would really like 14-16bits. But not even getting 12 bits is a bit of a let down. All those future numbers which are going be around at the same time as footage shot with it. Yes, 12 bits and acceptable highlights mean a lot to me. :(
Last edited by Wayne Steven on Sun Sep 02, 2018 5:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Pocket 4K footage we've all been waiting for

PostSat Sep 01, 2018 8:13 pm

Remember the Film Log records 12 bit Colour but that log is expanded to 16bit linear in Resolve. So there as you make your adjustments in post you’re working with 16bits and you can deliver that if you want, such as in DPX or TIFF or TARGA probably.


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Re: The Pocket 4K footage we've all been waiting for

PostSun Sep 02, 2018 12:01 am

Looks quite good, colors are nice, sky looks nice. If anything whole thing is bit soft and lacks resolution, but not a deal breaker.
ProResHQ or DNG RAW? None. It should be RAW (what is the point compressing 3x more data than it can be+ dealign with colors where it can be just monochrome image), but as a modern and well optimised codec, like Cineform RAW or ProRes RAW. DNG RAW is just waste of CPU. I don't really get why DNG is so slow for decoding- it's not complex coded at all. Adobe abandoned it seeing no future for it.

I don't think this sensor can really deliver real 12bits usable data.
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Re: The Pocket 4K footage we've all been waiting for

PostSun Sep 02, 2018 5:29 am

Ohh, rub it in Andrew, rub it in, no real 12 bits either. :)
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Re: The Pocket 4K footage we've all been waiting for

PostMon Sep 03, 2018 2:22 am

rick.lang wrote:Wayne, I think you’re going to purchase this camera. It’s good to be aware of all the shortcomings, but eventually there’s more joy in stepping on the playing field and swinging for a home run than sitting in the stands and watching your team’s batter strike out.


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Well, the latest rumors are the hydrogen does twin 4k to produce 8k (likely not the sort I like). Panasonic is coming out with a full frame 8k camera, Saud to not use a Sony sensor, with very good picture. So, this could be the Panasonic 20 stop organic image sensor. So, I don't know. Is there an 8k video assist comming? 20 stops is a bit of overkill, be useful in post.

I seriously think that BM should have done done proper test footage, and individual frames and few second raw clips of interesting performance scenes, for people to grade to test. That would be good.
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Re: The Pocket 4K footage we've all been waiting for

PostMon Sep 03, 2018 4:08 am

A few raw clips shot open gate under different conditions perhaps each only a few seconds long could spawn a friendly competition to see who could come up with the most interesting grades. The early announcement of this product has allowed people time to determine if the Pocket4K is of interest. Some footage to grade will get the blood flowing when you see how flexible and malleable the footage can be.


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Re: The Pocket 4K footage we've all been waiting for

PostMon Sep 03, 2018 4:56 am

Well, that's what we used to do during camera development. Even just cuting half second and such forth sections together. Trying to download over 256MB over dialup was not fun. 5 minute raw clips don't really help to narrow down on performance unless you want to do the grade to a high-level yourself. However, importing and playing with a frame in photo software a lot more people will do. I'm concerned, what I am seeing is the typical Sony consumer sensor burnout issue of old. It's not as bad as before but still looks funky. It's the same thing I saw in the 8 bit samples from NAB. I can say, samples I have seen from recent Sony 1 inch handy cams, tonally, look the thing. ProRes should be able to get near that.

I definitely have not seen anything to determine if this camera is definitely to buy. That's what these clips would do. It's important to see when it clips and where. You know you can reshape the highlights, but outside the non clipped zone, nothing can be done that simply under regular tools. But, it is really how ProRes handles clipping, highlight roll off, colors and levels which
I'm concerned about. ProRes more baked in things, you are reprocessing processed footage, you just want to rapidly turn around and shove out the door. If you have to go to Raw, then ProRes in resolve onna desktop before you hand over, it defeats the purpose. If I shot a job for peanuts, the closer to a finale finish and cut order I can film the better. So, while raw samples to test are best on the high end, seeing what ProRes can do is very important.
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The Pocket 4K footage we've all been waiting for

PostMon Sep 03, 2018 4:27 pm

Fine, let’s see a few very short clips of raw and ProRes 422 HQ please.


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Re: The Pocket 4K footage we've all been waiting for

PostMon Sep 03, 2018 5:22 pm

Ask and ye shall receive, apparently:

https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/produc ... ra/gallery
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Re: The Pocket 4K footage we've all been waiting for

PostMon Sep 03, 2018 6:01 pm

Nope, that's all ProRes footage.
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Re: The Pocket 4K footage we've all been waiting for

PostMon Sep 03, 2018 6:02 pm

Jim Giberti wrote:Nope, that's all ProRes footage.


Which with all my footage is what I actually shot.

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Re: The Pocket 4K footage we've all been waiting for

PostMon Sep 03, 2018 6:07 pm

Thanks, Sean, for the link to the footage. ProRes is fine too. Hope we get some raw, but this is fine and I’m glad BMD is making these downloadable. I’m going to start downloading


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Re: The Pocket 4K footage we've all been waiting for

PostMon Sep 03, 2018 6:35 pm

John Brawley wrote:
Jim Giberti wrote:Nope, that's all ProRes footage.


Which with all my footage is what I actually shot.

JB



And thanks again John, I haven't produced anything in raw in a couple of years so it's great to work with this.
Fantastic OOC images.
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Re: The Pocket 4K footage we've all been waiting for

PostMon Sep 03, 2018 9:17 pm

Unbreakable files, joy to grade. Haven't installed 15 yet, graded in 14.
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Re: The Pocket 4K footage we've all been waiting for

PostMon Sep 03, 2018 9:21 pm

For those who want to look at raw, there’s Mark Wyatt’s Nature. I’m downloading it now with a thousand others. When that finishes, I’ll go for Models Close Up at Night. At a few KB/s, I should have these downloaded just before the camera arrives.


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Re: The Pocket 4K footage we've all been waiting for

PostMon Sep 03, 2018 9:24 pm

Bunk, I think you’ll see the best results in Resolve 15 making use of the Colour Gen 4 capabilities (and Extended Video).


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Re: The Pocket 4K footage we've all been waiting for

PostMon Sep 03, 2018 9:34 pm

rick.lang wrote:For those who want to look at raw, there’s Mark Wyatt’s Nature.

Unfortunately, not. It has been mislabelled and is actually a ProRes file.
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Re: The Pocket 4K footage we've all been waiting for

PostMon Sep 03, 2018 10:08 pm

Johan, thanks for that. I think something went wrong with the download as it was taking forever. I just thought it was due to huge raw data. Killed it and trying the Close Up at 3200 ISO. Downloading much faster....


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Re: The Pocket 4K footage we've all been waiting for

PostTue Sep 04, 2018 1:00 am

Sean van Berlo wrote:Ask and ye shall receive, apparently:

https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/produc ... ra/gallery


Oh, that got me excited. But still no sample frames there.

Rick thanks for yours, looks much better, but still the brighter parts of image in different clips just seem to leap out unnaturally on this sensor. So, the skin stills looks unnatural, but not like a manikin anymore.

I'm noticing a lot of expose for the cameras lowight/shadow ability going on. What about ProRes footage which exposes for highlight ability and eveness of skin? At the moment I'm wondering if this will require a bit of careful on set work to get skins great on ProRes.
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Re: The Pocket 4K footage we've all been waiting for

PostTue Sep 04, 2018 1:01 am

rick.lang wrote:Bunk, I think you’ll see the best results in Resolve 15 making use of the Colour Gen 4 capabilities (and Extended Video).

It needs it.
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Re: The Pocket 4K footage we've all been waiting for

PostTue Sep 04, 2018 1:33 am

Well. I've examined the models at night footage. The different lighting definitely makes an improvement. But this camera, in ProRes, definitely can't seem to handle the makeup here. Plus, I didn't think the magnum steel type stare was supposed to be a real thing.

If you concentrate on the skin whithout makeup it looks a bit more like the original pocket, but the contrasting is just wrong. If you look at the blond models hair, you can see it emphasized. It just jumps from one contrast to another, and this is what is happening with the skin.

I'm not dissing the camera so much. I'm sure in raw things are a lot more manageable with this sony sensor, but I definitely would like to see them rehash the ProRes rendering, with (To) Grade modes plus enhancement settings (touch more color, touch more tonality and better highlights), and Final modes with best color and tonality and highlights. One you handover and it is touched up to taste, the other you just hand over and it maybe used as is. But, of course, without a user's manual, we can't tell if something like this is already on there.
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Re: The Pocket 4K footage we've all been waiting for

PostTue Sep 04, 2018 2:58 am

Wayne Steven wrote:
Sean van Berlo wrote:Ask and ye shall receive, apparently:

https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/produc ... ra/gallery


Oh, that got me excited. But still no sample frames there.

Rick thanks for yours, looks much better...


Wayne, thanks for the kudos but the alternate grade posted was from Bunk Timmer.


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Re: The Pocket 4K footage we've all been waiting for

PostTue Sep 04, 2018 6:33 am

Curious to know, what's happening with the Models Walking at Night? Are they still ironing out some stuff with that footage? Other than that, great imageries. Thanks, BMD for sharing.
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Re: The Pocket 4K footage we've all been waiting for

PostTue Sep 04, 2018 8:25 am

Jay Batchelor wrote:Curious to know, what's happening with the Models Walking at Night? Are they still ironing out some stuff with that footage? Other than that, great imageries. Thanks, BMD for sharing.

Like others I wasn't able to download it using Safari, but it worked with Chrome.
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Re: The Pocket 4K footage we've all been waiting for

PostTue Sep 04, 2018 8:59 am

rick.lang wrote:
Wayne Steven wrote:
Sean van Berlo wrote:Ask and ye shall receive, apparently:

https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/produc ... ra/gallery


Oh, that got me excited. But still no sample frames there.

Rick thanks for yours, looks much better...


Wayne, thanks for the kudos but the alternate grade posted was from Bunk Timmer.


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Ok Rick. Got confused.

Thanks for the stils Bunk.
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Re: The Pocket 4K footage we've all been waiting for

PostTue Sep 04, 2018 11:09 am

rick.lang wrote:Bunk, I think you’ll see the best results in Resolve 15 making use of the Colour Gen 4 capabilities (and Extended Video).
Thanks, you made me look for my package with serialnumber which dissapeared after a clean up. Found it and did the upgrade. Not sure if I see a huge difference, probably need to loose some old habbits first. I think I ended up with a bit better grade of the girl nevertheless. Love the bugs footage.
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Re: The Pocket 4K footage we've all been waiting for

PostTue Sep 04, 2018 11:48 am

Bunk Timmer wrote:
rick.lang wrote:Bunk, I think you’ll see the best results in Resolve 15 making use of the Colour Gen 4 capabilities (and Extended Video).
Thanks, you made me look for my package with serialnumber which dissapeared after a clean up. Found it and did the upgrade. Not sure if I see a huge difference


There shouldn't be any difference at all, unless you altered the grade. Gen 4 is an option for raw and extended video is for rec. 709 recording. BMD is providing Prores Log, so neither of those new features should be in play.
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Re: The Pocket 4K footage we've all been waiting for

PostTue Sep 04, 2018 2:07 pm

John Paines wrote:There shouldn't be any difference all, unless you altered the grade. Gen 4 is an option for raw and extended video is for rec. 709 recording. BMD is providing Prores Log, so neither of those new features should be in play.

Thanks for clearing that up. I think I notice different behavior when using a node in LAB color space. Looks like the blue channel reacts stronger than with 14 but my mind could be playing trics on me. Can't check it anymore.
And the blond lady...
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Re: The Pocket 4K footage we've all been waiting for

PostTue Sep 04, 2018 2:28 pm

Well, some comments of John Brawley elsewhere about Gen 4 have me confused now. I understood that it was an actual option only for debayering raw, and that log and video formats bake it in, but it's not a grading option dependent on 15.

What 15 will give you for sure is a BMPCC 4K input color space for RCM or the transform ofx. I believe there's also a BMPCC 4K log to rec 709 3D LUT.
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Re: The Pocket 4K footage we've all been waiting for

PostTue Sep 04, 2018 3:35 pm

Jack Fairley wrote:Preaching to the choir. I have no love for Adobe, but I'm not the one who has to edit.


Ah... so you're not the masochist ;)
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Re: The Pocket 4K footage we've all been waiting for

PostTue Sep 04, 2018 3:40 pm

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:DNG RAW is just waste of CPU. I don't really get why DNG is so slow for decoding- it's not complex coded at all. Adobe abandoned it seeing no future for it.


Most of the time, I think DNG's speed is gated by disk performance rather than CPU or GPU.

And Adobe abandoning it really means nothing; it's been clear for quite a while that Adobe has all the vision of an overbaked brick, due to being run mostly by marketing plunkeys. (I've had several former developers and development managers warn me off of working for Adobe for that reason.)

I don't think this sensor can really deliver real 12bits usable data.


Why not? BMD and Sony have both been doing that sort of thing for quite a while, I'm fairly certain that they've ironed out their glitches by now. Plus, it's a back-side illuminated sensor, so it's inherently more sensitive than its predecessors just because of having no circuitry in front of the photosites.
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Re: The Pocket 4K footage we've all been waiting for

PostTue Sep 04, 2018 3:52 pm

Ok, I've reviewed most of the sample shots. Much better, but I would have expected ProRes modes with finale color (you can do that by meta data preserving the original levels. I would be surprised if Cineform/Red could do it and BM couldn't, after I suggested it to them around 14 years ago). That's what you use for quick turn around.

I still see the issues being exaggerated in the grades, areas without makeup are much better (still needs a couple extra stops) and they are close enough to be tolerable. But, I'm yet to get a high dynamic range sample to save and extract here properly. The highlights causing the issue can be recovered a lot with certain techniques as they contain some colour information in the channels and detail, work equals results. So that's good. I'm actually liking it more than the fake colourful/contrasty look of the grade. It goes bed more a look of the pocket, but I've seen some risey beautiful grades from the pocket. I think the tone of yellow lighting is putting me off.

I'm watching the Longmire series here, and the change over from the end of series 5 and the beginning of series 6, is quite telling. You see more of the emphasis in skin tone before series 6 I was looking at before.
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cOften people deceive themselves so much they do not understand, even when the truth is explained to them
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John Paines

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Re: The Pocket 4K footage we've all been waiting for

PostTue Sep 04, 2018 4:04 pm

maxresdefault.jpg
maxresdefault.jpg (180.76 KiB) Viewed 3269 times


Somebody here could no doubt have given this poor guy some pointers on exposure, grading and sensor development, as well as a general course on aesthetics. Clipping!

Too bad it's a few hundred years too late to learn from a modern-day expert.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: The Pocket 4K footage we've all been waiting for

PostTue Sep 04, 2018 4:23 pm

Great, now somebody is comparing the pocket to a bad painting. But I see some similarities to what I'm saying. If your such an expert you could look up David's Oath of the Horati, compared to the painting latter in his like Mars and Venus. Then skip to Super/hyper realism.
aIf you are not truthfully progressive, maybe you shouldn't say anything
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John Paines

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Re: The Pocket 4K footage we've all been waiting for

PostTue Sep 04, 2018 4:30 pm

Wayne Steven wrote:Great, now somebody is comparing the pocket to a bad painting.


The artist is Rembrandt van Rijn, and the painting in question ("Aristotle with a bust of Homer"), from which this detail was extracted, is one of most admired and celebrated in the world.

Wayne Steven wrote: But I see some similarities to what I'm saying.


I know. That's the worry.
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michaeldhead

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Re: The Pocket 4K footage we've all been waiting for

PostTue Sep 04, 2018 4:38 pm

John Paines wrote:
maxresdefault.jpg


Somebody here could no doubt have given this poor guy some pointers on exposure, grading and sensor development, as well as a general course on aesthetics. Clipping!

Too bad it's a few hundred years too late to learn from a modern-day expert.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Oh, yeah, this guy, too - really needs to work on his ratios.

Image

wait...

Image

Image



No one is comparing the Pocket 4k to "bad paintings".

Commenting on complainers, sure.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: The Pocket 4K footage we've all been waiting for

PostTue Sep 04, 2018 4:41 pm

Image

See, much better than the Pocket 4k picture.

This one is more like the pocket 4k:

Image

This one looks a bit enhanced, but maybe it is meant to represent a restoration.

The hyperrealists more aproach what a cheap camera should be able to do, or beyond. I wrote up a personal paper on the construction of the techniques used to form arts, and these sorts of super realism techniques. I did another, somewhere between 11 and 27 pages (I forget) on the philosophy of the morality of art covering these techniques in further detail.
aIf you are not truthfully progressive, maybe you shouldn't say anything
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michaeldhead

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Re: The Pocket 4K footage we've all been waiting for

PostTue Sep 04, 2018 4:45 pm

Wayne Steven wrote:
*snip*



I think you missed the point.

[sarcasm]Would you like someone to explain it to you?

Or do you have a paper written about that? [/sarcasm] :D

We all have our opinions.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: The Pocket 4K footage we've all been waiting for

PostTue Sep 04, 2018 4:59 pm

Oh yes you are. You are comparing oddities to normality. That's what you have lighting and grading for, to produce oddities. A normal work camera is meant to capture normalities you then play around with, IF, the work needs it. You guys undoubtedly would love the Archibald prize, meanwhile I'd be down with the packers, maybe having a good laugh.

So, forget comparing it to rubbish images unless that is the look you are trying to get.

BTW, I think that the paintings shown, you might find that not only are those pictures maybe not the best, but the pictures seem to be pre restoration and maybe some of what you see is the result of hundreds of years of deterioration in the painting reducing detailing and toning in the photo's. The other photos are also massively better than the Pocket 4k, the effects you see have a lot to do withlcal lighting. Good to see you experts coming by.
aIf you are not truthfully progressive, maybe you shouldn't say anything
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John Paines

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Re: The Pocket 4K footage we've all been waiting for

PostTue Sep 04, 2018 5:02 pm

Wayne Steven wrote:See, much better than the Pocket 4k picture.



At least we cleared up. You hate the directional lighting which is the basis of most representational Western art of the last few hundred years, including art photography and cinematography. I think what you want is animation.

Here's another bad painting, this time by that incompetent Velasquez. Look at the forehead, what was that dauber thinking?

774px-Retrato_de_Juan_Pareja,_by_Diego_Velázquez.jpg
774px-Retrato_de_Juan_Pareja,_by_Diego_Velázquez.jpg (138.3 KiB) Viewed 3095 times
Last edited by John Paines on Thu Sep 06, 2018 12:55 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: The Pocket 4K footage we've all been waiting for

PostTue Sep 04, 2018 5:03 pm

Thanks Michael, did you pick up on my sarcasm though. :)
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Re: The Pocket 4K footage we've all been waiting for

PostTue Sep 04, 2018 5:06 pm

I feel like I have to explain often to people that don't understand shooting video: "natural" lighting usually looks terrible, and planned lighting that looks off in real life looks great on camera.

There's a reason there is a lighting style used often in film that is literally called "Rembrandt lighting".
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michaeldhead

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Re: The Pocket 4K footage we've all been waiting for

PostTue Sep 04, 2018 5:07 pm

John Paines wrote:
Wayne Steven wrote:See, much better than the Pocket 4k picture.



At least we cleared up. You hate the directional lighting which is the basis of most representational Western art of the last few hundred years, including art photography and cinematography. I think what you want is animation.

Here's another bad painting, this time by that incompetent Velasquez. Look at the forehead, what was that dauber thinking?

Velazquez_1330x590.jpg


Yeah - who would ever want to emulate this loser in modern forms of art like cinema?

:D
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