BMCC Killer?

The place for questions about shooting with Blackmagic Cameras.
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João Gomes

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Re: BMCC Killer?

PostTue May 14, 2013 2:52 pm

Pollenstudio wrote:
João Gomes wrote:
Margus Voll wrote:http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/855879-REG/Blackmagic_Design_BMD_CINECAM26KEF_Cinema_Camera.html

In stock!


Not in Europe.


Ring planetDV in Bradford, UK.



I´ve checked their website and they don´t have it in stock...

Thanks for the tip though...
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Tom Sefton

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Re: BMCC Killer?

PostTue May 14, 2013 2:54 pm

Ring them. It is - I spoke to them about half an hour ago. We are looking at getting another as a second camera, but first come first serve!
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João Gomes

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Re: BMCC Killer?

PostTue May 14, 2013 3:03 pm

Pollenstudio wrote:Ring them. It is - I spoke to them about half an hour ago. We are looking at getting another as a second camera, but first come first serve!



I appreciate the heads up but i´m hanging on a little longer for the MFT mount.
Thank you anyway!
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Dillan Stockham

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Re: BMCC Killer?

PostTue May 14, 2013 3:50 pm

Opinions... I have 2x 5D mkIIIs already and have been looking for a camera to shoot raw video for my real estate work mostly to gain latitude in DR. I pre-orederd the pocket camera for this reason thinking there was nothing better (except for the fact that a quality super-wide non-fisheye is hard to find). Then magic lantern announced they could record continuous 24p raw video. I was going to invest in the pocket camera, the metabones speed booster, and newer larger faster SD cards. Around a $2,000 investment give or take. Now, if Magic Lantern and build a quality working firmware that allows my current full frame 5D3 to shoot raw, should I cancel my pocket camera preorder and only invest in new CF cards? with the 720p raw files being better and sharper than my current 1080p out of my 5D I should be plenty happy with the smaller files.

Is there something I might gain other than an extra stop of DR that I should not cancel my pocket camera pre-order?
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sean mclennan

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Re: BMCC Killer?

PostTue May 14, 2013 4:28 pm

dcameraman wrote:Opinions... I have 2x 5D mkIIIs already and have been looking for a camera to shoot raw video for my real estate work mostly to gain latitude in DR. I pre-orederd the pocket camera for this reason thinking there was nothing better (except for the fact that a quality super-wide non-fisheye is hard to find). Then magic lantern announced they could record continuous 24p raw video. I was going to invest in the pocket camera, the metabones speed booster, and newer larger faster SD cards. Around a $2,000 investment give or take. Now, if Magic Lantern and build a quality working firmware that allows my current full frame 5D3 to shoot raw, should I cancel my pocket camera preorder and only invest in new CF cards? with the 720p raw files being better and sharper than my current 1080p out of my 5D I should be plenty happy with the smaller files.

Is there something I might gain other than an extra stop of DR that I should not cancel my pocket camera pre-order?


If your main goal is DR, have you tried ML's HDR mode? I wouldn't use it for any fast moving stuff, but I tried in on some interior shots and it worked pretty well. Especially for maintaining detail in windows while exposing for interiors. I would try that first.

Secondly, you are still holding your breathe on a 3rd party firmware update that, at this point, is not a reality. If this is your business, invest in the tools you can count on. (not dissing ML, I run ML on my 5dmkII) If you do a lot of this work, I would say get the pocket camera.
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bhook

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Re: BMCC Killer?

PostTue May 14, 2013 4:41 pm

sean mclennan wrote:I would say get the pocket camera.


Will the pocket camera get wide enough for typical real estate work?
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Kholi Hicks

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Re: BMCC Killer?

PostTue May 14, 2013 4:49 pm

spike wrote:Peter posted something from Kholi a page back. I'm not saying he's wrong (which on some points he actually is) but I will say that people should be objective, which he is not.


I'm pretty objective, unless I don't line up with the way that you think, then you'll consider me non-objective.

He has been the biggest BMCC fanboy since day one even contributing massively to bmcuser... I may be wrong but it seems like it is actually HIS site?


I am a fanboy... of great images. 5DMKIII does not produce a great image, it produces an acceptable one. So does the DVX100 in the right circumstance, FS100, and nearly every other camera on the market. If were here to discuss acceptable, then I should leave this conversation; I'm around to discuss advancement in image quality.

Speaking of discussion, relying on the term "fanboy" to defend your point of view is sloppy, and I see your post as antagonistic and completely out-of-sync with what I actually said. Why out of context?

Lastly, you are wrong, I don't own BMCuser.

I am no BMD fanboy but I do appreciate a good camera and to call the MKIII a BAD camera is ridiculous. If you look at imdb you will see MANY films that used the MKII & III is some capacity. The Avengers, for example.


Where did I call the camera bad? I said it was not a good lowlight camera.

The DVX100 has been used in some context, I've put a good fifteen hacked GH2s on major motion pictures and broadcast dramas (recently a Denzel Washington picture and the ABC show RED WIDOW) shooting right along side Alexas.

Again, why out of context?

It's a reliable, solid, great piece of kit and to simply brush it off in as little as one post is not doing it justice.


The camera can be reliable, short of shut offs due to overheating. The Hack? Has it proven reliable over an extended period of time?

How many high budget films or TV shows have used the BMCC? Apart from that other fanboys AUS shows... none! The camera is not reliable enough in the field to warrant the use of a camera like the BMCC on a high budget show.


If it's being used on a show, it's reliable enough. Perhaps not readily available.


I am pretty sure the MKII and MKIII are the go to camera's for action and stunt work in Hollywood at the moment. For example to back up my claims (as I do that not like some others here) http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/about_can ... 48055b504#.


Right along side with GoPros. If your point that "movies use it" holds any weight, then we should all be shooting on GoPros as well.

This defensive argument is never actually solid fodder for forward-thinking conversation. But, again, I supposed you weren't actually responding to a single thing I posted, and just thinking out loud, right?
My point is this; fanboys get scared when their precious is about to be competed with. I and many others welcome competition. It just means more choice for the customer!

Thanks


Let's be realistic: camera competition has no effect on the work that I do. I have access to every single digital cinema camera out on the market right now, and every DSLR worth shooting on. I'll use what is required, and every job isn't BV1 right now.

I don't lose jobs to gear.

Discussion is great, at least try to remain within context when responding... to me, anyway.
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Taikonaut

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Re: BMCC Killer?

PostTue May 14, 2013 5:25 pm

Soeren Mueller wrote:Taiko, I am not mourning the fact that all these improvements are happening, I have payed/supported ML and I'm a happy ML user, I mourn all this uninformed sensationalist/hectic "blog nonsense".. you can't really call it "journalism" in the slightest imho. While I get that Andrew/EOSHD is a nice guy I just can't stand his constantly hyped sensationalist ramblings. Most of the time it's funny at best...


I'm aware of Andrew's sensationalist claim and lack of consistency, he even banned me from his forum because I highlighted his errors numerous times. However not all of what he said is crap and regardless of what I or your opinions about his sensationalist claims I can tell and decide for myself when something is good or not. Looking at the video from the latest ML hack it is simply good enough and very close to a BMCC albeit in FF which is very good to have. My EF lenses is built around my 5D and it would be a significant saving over having to workaround a new line of fast wide angle lens to adjust to a smaller sensor size. And it does anamorphic crop too. You may have set you heart and invested a lot of time recently on your BMCC but be flexible and accept what is comming. As somebody said elsewhere, don't fight it, enjoy it.
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Taikonaut

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Re: BMCC Killer?

PostTue May 14, 2013 5:26 pm

João Gomes wrote:
Soeren Mueller wrote:
Taikonaut wrote: And yeah personally it's totally beyond me how anyone working professionally with these tools could ever consider a 5D Mk3 with the latest ML as an alternative to a BMC... but I guess whatever suits you suits you...


That´s the point many are making.

If i had a BMCC i wouldn´t consider a hacked 5D MKIII but since i´ve been working with my 7D and have been waiting for a BMCC, the 5D is looking better.
You work with what you have and right now i have a 5D not a BMCC.


I did'nt wrote that :roll:
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Taikonaut

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Re: BMCC Killer?

PostTue May 14, 2013 5:28 pm

Clark Fable wrote:
Taikonaut wrote:EOSHD seems pretty excited and think it is more than a match for BMCC and he uses both.
We now have a camera or cameras capable of shooting 14bits in RAW or something close to it at dSLR FF including anamorphic. No more investing in new lens to work around a small sensor.


Remember, EOSHD was real excited when he first took the AA filter off the 5D3 too, then he wasn't...


He was initially but the result prove otherwise which to his credit he did say so and put the filter back in. I had run ins with him but you really need to decide what is good or not and I trust my eyes.
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Michael Coviello

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Re: BMCC Killer?

PostTue May 14, 2013 5:37 pm

http://www.cinema5d.com/news/?p=17976

Mark III RAW vs. BlackMagic RAW
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Christian Schmeer

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Re: BMCC Killer?

PostTue May 14, 2013 5:47 pm

dcameraman wrote:Now, if Magic Lantern and build a quality working firmware that allows my current full frame 5D3 to shoot raw, should I cancel my pocket camera preorder and only invest in new CF cards? with the 720p raw files being better and sharper than my current 1080p out of my 5D I should be plenty happy with the smaller files.


I have a 5D Mark III and a BMCC and I loaded the latest "nightly build" on my 5D last night. I don't own very fast CF cards. The fastest I have is a Transcend 32GB "400X" card. At 1280x720 resolution, I was able to record continuously for about 20 seconds, then it started dropping frames. In comparison to the previous builds of the firmware/raw module, it now displays to what extent the buffer is full and whether it's dropping frames and if so, how many. If you get good 1000x CF cards, which are quite expensive, you'll probably get away with shooting in 1920x1080 resolution, as others who have tested the ML firmware have been able to. 1280x720 shouldn't be a problem at all with those cards if my 400x already "kind of" works at least for a while.


Saying that, as you can see from this demo (), the quality is much improved in comparison to shooting h.264 and the footage is correctable and gradable. However, there are still lots of issues with the picture (e.g. at 53 secs). Over time, these problems might get taken care of, but using the 5D in this way will always be a little bit of a risk. If you are willing to accept that risk and work around it, checking your footage and taking several takes if you have to (at least for now), then the 5D with ML hack could work for you, since you were going to buy expensive SD cards for the Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera anyway. If I were you, I'd keep the pre-order for the Pocket Camera active and see how the ML firmware develops for the 5D. You can always make the decision further down the road :)
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Fulgencio Martínez

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Re: BMCC Killer?

PostTue May 14, 2013 6:09 pm

Christian Schmeer wrote:
dcameraman wrote:Now, if Magic Lantern and build a quality working firmware that allows my current full frame 5D3 to shoot raw, should I cancel my pocket camera preorder and only invest in new CF cards? with the 720p raw files being better and sharper than my current 1080p out of my 5D I should be plenty happy with the smaller files.


I have a 5D Mark III and a BMCC and I loaded the latest "nightly build" on my 5D last night. I don't own very fast CF cards. The fastest I have is a Transcend 32GB "400X" card. At 1280x720 resolution, I was able to record continuously for about 20 seconds, then it started dropping frames. In comparison to the previous builds of the firmware/raw module, it now displays to what extent the buffer is full and whether it's dropping frames and if so, how many. If you get good 1000x CF cards, which are quite expensive, you'll probably get away with shooting in 1920x1080 resolution, as others who have tested the ML firmware have been able to. 1280x720 shouldn't be a problem at all with those cards if my 400x already "kind of" works at least for a while.


Saying that, as you can see from this demo (), the quality is much improved in comparison to shooting h.264 and the footage is correctable and gradable. However, there are still lots of issues with the picture (e.g. at 53 secs). Over time, these problems might get taken care of, but using the 5D in this way will always be a little bit of a risk. If you are willing to accept that risk and work around it, checking your footage and taking several takes if you have to (at least for now), then the 5D with ML hack could work for you, since you were going to buy expensive SD cards for the Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera anyway. If I were you, I'd keep the pre-order for the Pocket Camera active and see how the ML firmware develops for the 5D. You can always make the decision further down the road :)


As you say there are still lots of issues.. but it looks like Magic Lantern guys are faster fixing issues than BM
Just a couple of days ago they worked with smaller resolutions.. i can´t even imaging what they will be able to do in a month
Meanwhile BM has not been able to fix really serious issues like Black dot when filming the sun. This issue was reported at least 5 months ago.
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Re: BMCC Killer?

PostTue May 14, 2013 6:43 pm

iamoui wrote:http://www.cinema5d.com/news/?p=17976

Mark III RAW vs. BlackMagic RAW


That video appears to show the details are pretty close but the 5DMkIII looks warmer and better DR at ISO 160 compare to the BMCC at ISO 800.
It kind of confirm what I saw in EOSHD sample. Sensationalism about the latest ML hack? I don't think so.
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Kholi Hicks

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Re: BMCC Killer?

PostTue May 14, 2013 6:45 pm

Taikonaut wrote:
iamoui wrote:http://www.cinema5d.com/news/?p=17976

Mark III RAW vs. BlackMagic RAW


That video appears to show the details are pretty close but the 5DMkIII looks warmer and better DR at ISO 160 compare to the BMCC at ISO 800.
It kind of confirm what I saw in EOSHD sample. Sensationalism about the latest ML hack? I don't think so.


THey clearly say that they hadn't any idea how to utilize Blackmagic, how is this test definitive in any way?

It confirms that people are impressionable and refuse to read the fine text, or even print it.

I don't understand why people attempt to shoot "tests" but have no idea how to use the camera they're testing.
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Scott Pultz

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Re: BMCC Killer?

PostTue May 14, 2013 6:50 pm

They posted some 5D III DNG files. They should post some comparable BMCC DNG files.

The BMCC really shines when viewed at it's native resolution compared to 1080p.
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Peter J. DeCrescenzo

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Re: BMCC Killer?

PostTue May 14, 2013 6:52 pm

spike wrote:Peter posted something from Kholi a page back. I'm not saying he's wrong (which on some points he actually is) but I will say that people should be objective, which he is not. He has been the biggest BMCC fanboy since day one even contributing massively to bmcuser... I may be wrong but it seems like it is actually HIS site?

I am no BMD fanboy but I do appreciate a good camera and to call the MKIII a BAD camera is ridiculous. If you look at imdb you will see MANY films that used the MKII & III is some capacity. The Avengers, for example.

It's a reliable, solid, great piece of kit and to simply brush it off in as little as one post is not doing it justice. How many high budget films or TV shows have used the BMCC? Apart from that other fanboys AUS shows... none! The camera is not reliable enough in the field to warrant the use of a camera like the BMCC on a high budget show.

I am pretty sure the MKII and MKIII are the go to camera's for action and stunt work in Hollywood at the moment. For example to back up my claims (as I do that not like some others here) http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/about_can ... 48055b504#.

My point is this; fanboys get scared when their precious is about to be competed with. I and many others welcome competition. It just means more choice for the customer!

Thanks


Hi "spike": I suggest you re-read Kholi's post.

I don't believe it's a critique of the 5D. He mostly talking about how many 5D users are due for a rude awakening because of the ML RAW video hack, and I think he's saying that's OK. It's not a reason not to use RAW. More a heads-up about workflow & such.

5D users will gradually decide for themselves if they want to work with ML RAW video long-term. It's too soon to say whether or not that'll happen.

Meanwhile, BMD camera users will "soon" have lossless compressed RAW for acquisition. More choice is a good thing.

Cheers.
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Peter J. DeCrescenzo

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Re: BMCC Killer?

PostTue May 14, 2013 6:54 pm

Taikonaut wrote:... The FF sensor make more sense.


"If it's not in focus, it's not HD."

Cheers.

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Peter J. DeCrescenzo

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Re: BMCC Killer?

PostTue May 14, 2013 6:56 pm

mhood wrote:
sean mclennan wrote:I would say get the pocket camera.


Will the pocket camera get wide enough for typical real estate work?


Not to mention that there's "wide", and then there's "Texas wide"!

:lol:

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Peter J. DeCrescenzo

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Re: BMCC Killer?

PostTue May 14, 2013 7:04 pm

Taikonaut wrote:... FF which is very good to have ...


Extremely rarely for cinema & video.

"If it's not in focus, it's not HD."

Cheers.

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Fulgencio Martínez

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Re: BMCC Killer?

PostTue May 14, 2013 7:11 pm

Kholi wrote:
Taikonaut wrote:
iamoui wrote:http://www.cinema5d.com/news/?p=17976

Mark III RAW vs. BlackMagic RAW


That video appears to show the details are pretty close but the 5DMkIII looks warmer and better DR at ISO 160 compare to the BMCC at ISO 800.
It kind of confirm what I saw in EOSHD sample. Sensationalism about the latest ML hack? I don't think so.


THey clearly say that they hadn't any idea how to utilize Blackmagic, how is this test definitive in any way?

It confirms that people are impressionable and refuse to read the fine text, or even print it.

I don't understand why people attempt to shoot "tests" but have no idea how to use the camera they're testing.

How many BMCC tests have you seen?
I mean real cinematography test.. macbeth color charts, resolution.. not just unprofessional crap
I think there are just a few if any
I´ve never seen any real tech test to determine real ISO or real Latitude.. only heard BM says 800 iso 13 stops
btw.. They probably did not have any idea on how to use 5d raw either
what is clear is that 14bit raw holds more info than12bit.. not to mention Canon also shoots wonderful stills... batteries are available everywhere.. and you can walk into a shop and get one.. i´ve already been waiting for my BMCC 6 months. Now i´m confused.. maybe i´ve been lucky after all.
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João Gomes

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Re: BMCC Killer?

PostTue May 14, 2013 7:20 pm

No doubt the hacked 5D looks very good but... come on... Canon 24-105mm L glass vs Tokina´s...
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Re: BMCC Killer?

PostTue May 14, 2013 7:32 pm

João Gomes wrote:No doubt the hacked 5D looks very good but... come on... Canon 24-105mm L glass vs Tokina´s...


Yep, excellent quality canon glass on a full frame 5D III, recording at a decent bit depth, resolution and bit rate......it's really not fair hey !
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sean mclennan

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Re: BMCC Killer?

PostTue May 14, 2013 7:39 pm

João Gomes wrote:No doubt the hacked 5D looks very good but... come on... Canon 24-105mm L glass vs Tokina´s...


Exactly!! Chromatic aberrations and refraction are a result of the lens...not the sensor. That opening shot with the wet pavement makes the BMCC look like sh*t. What I don't understand is why do that? Why not use the same lens on both cameras? You can adjust the zoom and/or camera placement to maintain perspective and then you have a much more even test.

I AM impressed with what ML is doing! However, 12.5 fps or 25 fps (frame skipping) until buffer fills? The hardware will never let you shoot 1080p 24fps for 5 minute takes reliably. There's nothing ML can do about the camera's hardware limitations. Just like BM can't do anything about the limitation of some SSD drives.

Fulgencio, why are you still here? Go get your 5D and see how green the grass really is on that side of the fence.
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Andrew Deme

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Re: BMCC Killer?

PostTue May 14, 2013 7:42 pm

sean mclennan wrote:
João Gomes wrote:No doubt the hacked 5D looks very good but... come on... Canon 24-105mm L glass vs Tokina´s...


Exactly!! Chromatic aberrations and refraction are a result of the lens...not the sensor. That opening shot with the wet pavement makes the BMCC look like sh*t. What I don't understand is why do that? Why not use the same lens on both cameras? You can adjust the zoom and/or camera placement to maintain perspective and then you have a much more even test.

I AM impressed with what ML is doing! However, 12.5 fps or 25 fps (frame skipping) until buffer fills? The hardware will never let you shoot 1080p 24fps for 5 minute takes reliably. There's nothing ML can do about the camera's hardware limitations. Just like BM can't do anything about the limitation of some SSD drives.

Fulgencio, why are you still here? Go get your 5D and see how green the grass really is on that side of the fence.


Maybe BMD could use Sean as head of marketing....
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sean mclennan

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Re: BMCC Killer?

PostTue May 14, 2013 7:45 pm

Facts are facts Andrew...no marketing spin needed. The debbie downers just like to ignore them when they whine.
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Andrew Deme

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Re: BMCC Killer?

PostTue May 14, 2013 7:52 pm

sean mclennan wrote:Facts are facts Andrew...no marketing spin needed. The debbie downers just like to ignore them when they whine.


Yeah they need to be told hey....just the other day I bought a Casio watch and rang Seiko to tell them and they were really really upset....geez, hate to think what Levi's are gunna say when I tell em about my new Jeans.

Seriously Sean, ML are doing an outstanding job as are BMD......skin tones on the BMC are to die for and the idea of a much improved Canon is hugely exciting and people are gunna compare the detail to the n'th degree.

Good on em as I for one am super interested, just as I am by what BMD do next......my vote is for an SDK, but that is starting to sound repetative I know.
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Taikonaut

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Re: BMCC Killer?

PostTue May 14, 2013 7:53 pm

Kholi wrote:
Taikonaut wrote:
iamoui wrote:http://www.cinema5d.com/news/?p=17976

Mark III RAW vs. BlackMagic RAW


That video appears to show the details are pretty close but the 5DMkIII looks warmer and better DR at ISO 160 compare to the BMCC at ISO 800.
It kind of confirm what I saw in EOSHD sample. Sensationalism about the latest ML hack? I don't think so.


THey clearly say that they hadn't any idea how to utilize Blackmagic, how is this test definitive in any way?

It confirms that people are impressionable and refuse to read the fine text, or even print it.

I don't understand why people attempt to shoot "tests" but have no idea how to use the camera they're testing.


Read what I said, I'm refering to "that video". Jumping into conclusion with your own brand of impressionable then calling others impressionable. Sheesh.
How do you know if he is doing in right or not just because he admitted he had issue with getting BMCC to work. It doesnt mean he is using it incorrectly. Get out of the fanboy mentality for once and judge a video for what it is. When you get a chance to play with both then you can slate other people being impressionable. :roll:
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Taikonaut

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Re: BMCC Killer?

PostTue May 14, 2013 7:59 pm

Peter J. DeCrescenzo wrote:
Taikonaut wrote:... FF which is very good to have ...


Extremely rarely for cinema & video.

"If it's not in focus, it's not HD."

Cheers.

-


Don't just assume FF automatically mean very shallow DOF. It just means I can use a not so fast lens or shoot at optimal f5.6-f8 and it gives me moderately shallow DOF. Also who decides how cinema should look anyway? There are time and place for very shallow DOF video.
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Christian Schmeer

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Re: BMCC Killer?

PostTue May 14, 2013 8:10 pm

Peter J. DeCrescenzo wrote:"If it's not in focus, it's not HD."


Where's that quote from? :mrgreen:
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Peter J. DeCrescenzo

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Re: BMCC Killer?

PostTue May 14, 2013 8:11 pm

Taikonaut wrote:... There are time and place for very shallow DOF video.


That's true: Almost never.


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Dillan Stockham

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Re: BMCC Killer?

PostTue May 14, 2013 8:12 pm

Well I think i'm leaning toward sticking to my 5D3 with Raw and canceling my pocket camera pre-oreder
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Christian Schmeer

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Re: BMCC Killer?

PostTue May 14, 2013 8:13 pm

João Gomes wrote:No doubt the hacked 5D looks very good but... come on... Canon 24-105mm L glass vs Tokina´s...


True – when using both the Canon 17-55mm F/2.8 and Tokina 11-16mm F/2.8 on the BMCC for my last project, I ended up with similar differences in chromatic aberration and moiré in the pattern of some tiles on the ground. They need to redo the test with the same lens...
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sean mclennan

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Re: BMCC Killer?

PostTue May 14, 2013 8:19 pm

Andrew Deme wrote:
sean mclennan wrote:Facts are facts Andrew...no marketing spin needed. The debbie downers just like to ignore them when they whine.


Yeah they need to be told hey....just the other day I bought a Casio watch and rang Seiko to tell them and they were really really upset....geez, hate to think what Levi's are gunna say when I tell em about my new Jeans.

Seriously Sean, ML are doing an outstanding job as are BMD......skin tones on the BMC are to die for and the idea of a much improved Canon is hugely exciting and people are gunna compare the detail to the n'th degree.

Good on em as I for one am super interested, just as I am by what BMD do next......my vote is for an SDK, but that is starting to sound repetative I know.


Dude...I never said anything bad about ML. Let's be clear. I run ML on the 5DII I have. However, taking a few short clips, in a poorly orchestrated test isn't a good (or fair) comparison and it confuses a lot of novice shooters who don't know any better.

I'm unimpressed with the test...not what ML is doing.

and Taikonaut....it's not "fanboy mentality", you can't judge the image in a video unless it's created properly. I could easily make a 5d3ML VS BMCC test and make the 5D footage look quite weak in comparison. There are so many variables that effect the output. This is why really good tests are completely boring test charts, with even lighting in controlled environments. Eliminate as many variable as possible (as long as they're not characteristics of the test)

The bottom line is the 5D platform was/is amazing. It changed the industry and empowered the people! You can still make excellent videos with the camera. However, it's technology is dated. Magic Lantern is all about unlocking added potential in the hardware. They've done that with great success but in my mind...and from all the examples I've seen (including what they're written on their website) they've taken that camera as far as they can go. It's reached it's potential.

The BMCC is an evolutionary move forward. It has it's own limitations and issues, but frankly, it does indeed surpass what the technology in the 5D3 can do. Period. Maybe Canon will drop a 5D4 on us shortly that will leapfrog, it's entirely possible...but waving a "BMCC killer" flag about a technology that really isn't on the same level, in a BMCC forum, is going to pull some negative remarks. Shouldn't be a surprise. Who's being a fanboy anyway?

Is there such a thing as reverse fanboyism? There must be a word for that, what is it?
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JerryBruck

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Re: BMCC Killer?

PostTue May 14, 2013 8:22 pm

Marc? mhood?? You out there anywhere? Tell me if you can then, geezer-to-geezer, just why these fellows can't love one another? Especially since these hacks & gizmos don't even exist yet, who knows when or if they ever really will? Or is it time for another Grant Petty Update? Maybe he can put the Smile back.
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Re: BMCC Killer?

PostTue May 14, 2013 8:22 pm

sean mclennan wrote:
Andrew Deme wrote:
sean mclennan wrote:Facts are facts Andrew...no marketing spin needed. The debbie downers just like to ignore them when they whine.


Yeah they need to be told hey....just the other day I bought a Casio watch and rang Seiko to tell them and they were really really upset....geez, hate to think what Levi's are gunna say when I tell em about my new Jeans.

Seriously Sean, ML are doing an outstanding job as are BMD......skin tones on the BMC are to die for and the idea of a much improved Canon is hugely exciting and people are gunna compare the detail to the n'th degree.

Good on em as I for one am super interested, just as I am by what BMD do next......my vote is for an SDK, but that is starting to sound repetative I know.


Dude...I never said anything bad about ML. Let's be clear. I run ML on the 5DII I have. However, taking a few short clips, in a poorly orchestrated test isn't a good (or fair) comparison and it confuses a lot of novice shooters who don't know any better.

I'm unimpressed with the test...not what ML is doing.

and Taikonaut....it's not "fanboy mentality", you can't judge the image in a video unless it's created properly. I could easily make a 5d3ML VS BMCC test and make the 5D footage look quite weak in comparison. There are so many variables that effect the output. This is why really good tests are completely boring test charts, with even lighting in controlled environments. Eliminate as many variable as possible (as long as they're not characteristics of the test)

The bottom line is the 5D platform was/is amazing. It changed the industry and empowered the people! You can still make excellent videos with the camera. However, it's technology is dated. Magic Lantern is all about unlocking added potential in the hardware. They've done that with great success but in my mind...and from all the examples I've seen (including what they're written on their website) they've taken that camera as far as they can go. It's reached it's potential.

The BMCC is an evolutionary move forward. It has it's own limitations and issues, but frankly, it does indeed surpass what the technology in the 5D3 can do. Period. Maybe Canon will drop a 5D4 on us shortly that will leapfrog, it's entirely possible...but waving a "BMCC killer" flag about a technology that really isn't on the same level, in a BMCC forum, is going to pull some negative remarks. Shouldn't be a surprise. Who's being a fanboy anyway?

Is there such a thing as reverse fanboyism? There must be a word for that, what is it?


Easy (;->
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Re: BMCC Killer?

PostTue May 14, 2013 8:23 pm

Say it in my left ear Marc
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Kholi Hicks

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Re: BMCC Killer?

PostTue May 14, 2013 8:26 pm

Taikonaut wrote:
Kholi wrote:

THey clearly say that they hadn't any idea how to utilize Blackmagic, how is this test definitive in any way?

It confirms that people are impressionable and refuse to read the fine text, or even print it.

I don't understand why people attempt to shoot "tests" but have no idea how to use the camera they're testing.


Read what I said, I'm refering to "that video". Jumping into conclusion with your own brand of impressionable then calling others impressionable. Sheesh.
How do you know if he is doing in right or not just because he admitted he had issue with getting BMCC to work. It doesnt mean he is using it incorrectly. Get out of the fanboy mentality for once and judge a video for what it is. When you get a chance to play with both then you can slate other people being impressionable. :roll:


We're referring to the same video. What are you talking about?

And CLEARLY one hasn't researched if you have no idea how to utilize zebras on the camera: it's simple, set to 100, choose to clip or do not clip. This is 101 with the camera.

The term fanboy is a weak attempt at copping out of an actual, factual debate. It invalidates anything that you're saying immediately. If you don't actually care if anyone takes anything away from your "contributions", which by constantly spouting fanboy as an easy way out of being incapable of articulating a solid counter-point in debate, why post?
Last edited by Kholi Hicks on Tue May 14, 2013 8:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Peter J. DeCrescenzo

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Re: BMCC Killer?

PostTue May 14, 2013 8:26 pm

dcameraman wrote:Well I think i'm leaning toward sticking to my 5D3 with Raw and canceling my pocket camera pre-oreder


Whew! That was close!

:lol:

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Re: BMCC Killer?

PostTue May 14, 2013 8:27 pm

sean mclennan wrote:
João Gomes wrote:No doubt the hacked 5D looks very good but... come on... Canon 24-105mm L glass vs Tokina´s...


Exactly!! Chromatic aberrations and refraction are a result of the lens...not the sensor. That opening shot with the wet pavement makes the BMCC look like sh*t. What I don't understand is why do that? Why not use the same lens on both cameras? You can adjust the zoom and/or camera placement to maintain perspective and then you have a much more even test.

I AM impressed with what ML is doing! However, 12.5 fps or 25 fps (frame skipping) until buffer fills? The hardware will never let you shoot 1080p 24fps for 5 minute takes reliably. There's nothing ML can do about the camera's hardware limitations. Just like BM can't do anything about the limitation of some SSD drives.

Fulgencio, why are you still here? Go get your 5D and see how green the grass really is on that side of the fence.


A couple days ago time limit was 1 second.. now it is 1 minute
According to Magic Lantern time limit is in the code and will not be an issue
you will be able to shoot until the card gets filled (128gb cards.. that´s 32minutes!!)
Why am i still here?
I´m enjoying the moment.. I´ve been suffering for 14 days and 5 months.. BM said i would have my camera for december.. as i can see BM lied... As i can see Magic Lantern does not lie
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Christian Schmeer

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Re: BMCC Killer?

PostTue May 14, 2013 8:28 pm

New demo video by Neumannfilms: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... m8A7FH2Qg4

Interesting comment:
BTW, any chance this new hack will fry the sensor? Someone from Canon was posting on Twitter that the heat warning were designed for H.264 video and they won't work with this new RAW and that sensors are going to end up damaged. My first thought was Canon doing some damage control, but have you had any issues as of yet? Hope you guys really put it through a lot to show its safe to use. BTW, any chance you could do a low light high iso test...very low light...maybe even against the BMCC? lol.
I share your "first thought" as well. I wasn't pushing it though. I wouldn't feel great about letting it record for minutes at a time. I just filmed for 10-15 seconds, got my shot and then cut. I doubt that puts too much wear and tear on it.
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Re: BMCC Killer?

PostTue May 14, 2013 8:36 pm

Fulgencio Martínez wrote:Why am i still here?
I´m enjoying the moment.. I´ve been suffering for 14 days and 5 months.. BM said i would have my camera for december.. as i can see BM lied... As i can see Magic Lantern does not lie

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Joe Gonzalez

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Re: BMCC Killer?

PostTue May 14, 2013 8:54 pm

I really hope this Mark3 raw bandwagon weeds outs being on the fence. Jumping ship and jumping on bandwagons real quick just makes you look real amateur. Im sticking with Blackmagic, they are a new company with their first camera with two newer ones on the way. Yes there has been hiccups with production and features but this is a company that i think will and have listened to the indie filmmaker. I just shot my first short with my BMCC and it worked flawless. If It takes a third party to hack a camera to make it function the way they want to thats great, but that just makes the Canon look even worse. Why would you just accept that? I wont. Ill use what canon is good for, stills and the BMCC for my filmmaking needs with a global shutter, Pro-Res,4k and not have to pull crazy focus on a full frame sensor.
Last edited by Joe Gonzalez on Tue May 14, 2013 11:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: BMCC Killer?

PostTue May 14, 2013 9:08 pm

dcameraman wrote:Well I think i'm leaning toward sticking to my 5D3 with Raw and canceling my pocket camera pre-oreder


Who says you can't have both? I can't believe the amount of people becoming polarized by this development. Why do people feel compelled to pick 5D III over BMD, or vice versa? Especially since we're still in the very early stages for all of this. The Production 4k and PocketCam aren't even out yet and people are already dismissing them. Everyone take a deep breath and a step back. There is no reason for anyone to get upset at another over a CAMERA. We have choices, people! This is a good thing. Life is short, enjoy it.
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Re: BMCC Killer?

PostTue May 14, 2013 9:12 pm

iamoui wrote:Why do people feel compelled to pick 5D III over BMD, or vice versa?


Moneys.

For the average user who already has a 5D Mark III, this development may seem enticing. I think it's way too early to tell. Who knows.. maybe 1-2 months down the road, hacked 5Ds will fail.
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Re: BMCC Killer?

PostTue May 14, 2013 9:33 pm

As I mentioned in my earlier post, I'm waiting to see what's happening.

One thing is definitely clear: There's absolutely no reason to decide to change today.
Still a long way to go with this hack.
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Re: BMCC Killer?

PostTue May 14, 2013 9:54 pm

Christian Schmeer wrote:New demo video by Neumannfilms: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... m8A7FH2Qg4

Interesting comment:
BTW, any chance this new hack will fry the sensor? Someone from Canon was posting on Twitter that the heat warning were designed for H.264 video and they won't work with this new RAW and that sensors are going to end up damaged. My first thought was Canon doing some damage control, but have you had any issues as of yet? Hope you guys really put it through a lot to show its safe to use. BTW, any chance you could do a low light high iso test...very low light...maybe even against the BMCC? lol.
I share your "first thought" as well. I wasn't pushing it though. I wouldn't feel great about letting it record for minutes at a time. I just filmed for 10-15 seconds, got my shot and then cut. I doubt that puts too much wear and tear on it.


Interesting comment about the heat warning. I doubt it's a scare tactic. The best scare tactic would be to say nothing and wait for the blogs to report the fried sensors or other chips that Canon won't replace under warranty if the camera has been hacked.

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sean mclennan

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Re: BMCC Killer?

PostTue May 14, 2013 10:01 pm

Christian Schmeer wrote:
iamoui wrote:Why do people feel compelled to pick 5D III over BMD, or vice versa?


Moneys.

For the average user who already has a 5D Mark III, this development may seem enticing. I think it's way too early to tell. Who knows.. maybe 1-2 months down the road, hacked 5Ds will fail.


Definitely! If you already own and were thinking about dropping $3K to get RAW...ML hack would be a huge godsend right now!

Personally, I love what ML is doing. Hacking a device, sticking it to the corporate machine who holds back features to protect their fat wallets. It's strangely fulfilling :mrgreen:

Professionally, I will admit I do worry about using my hacked 5DII. Well, not using it so much as depending on it for paid gigs where I cannot fail. I also waited several months after the last release before installing just to make sure there were no gotchas. ML is a hack after all...and frankly, they're being "allowed" to provide this hack without any legal persecution from Canon. (they were warned to never touch the 1D...and they said they never would) I don't think I would use the new RAW function for paid gig yet. I would want to film a bunch of tests first..better still, wait for someone else to do some long tests and make sure the worries of sensor damage are unfounded.

So for now I enjoy this gravy boat of added functionality while I can get it. I will admit, it is nice to be running a 2 cam setup! 8-)
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Re: BMCC Killer?

PostTue May 14, 2013 10:14 pm

Everyone, please remember not to call each other names. Fan boys, posers, haters, etc, etc... You're all just cinematographers trying to figure out what product is right for you. You should choose whichever product best allows you to reach your creative potential.

Please remember to keep this discussion civil. I don't want to lock it!

Also, for those who aren't, please use your real name as your username or in your signature. You can update your username here: ucp.php?i=profile&mode=reg_details

Thank you!
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Pete Proniewicz-Brooks

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Re: BMCC Killer?

PostTue May 14, 2013 10:20 pm

Taikonaut wrote:
Soeren Mueller wrote:
Taikonaut wrote:Let say the 5D and BMCC produce equal quality video and both equally gradeable I would choose the 5D. The FF sensor make more sense.


Agreed, but that's pure theory. Reality is sooo far from it "sadly". Still love my 5D - but once you've used a BMC you won't look back anymore, I can promise you that!

It's kinda sad.. I think if the "availability issue" wouldn't still plague the BMC this topic would be sort of a non-issue anyways...


I was replying to another theory.
You answered with a theory because basically you havent used the latest ML hack for the Canon 5DMkIII. Until you do then you can make an informed opinion based on fact.
There is nothing sad about it. This is interesting time not a time to mourn about anything.
EOSHD seems pretty excited and think it is more than a match for BMCC and he uses both.
We now have a camera or cameras capable of shooting 14bits in RAW or something close to it at dSLR FF including anamorphic. No more investing in new lens to work around a small sensor.


It wasnt a theory it was a question, there are places where being offered the choice of a BMCC and a 5dMk3 are reality.

The 5DMk3 ML mod has produced adequate looking footage, thats it. It's a vast improvemnt over the H264 out of the 5D, but thats not actually that difficult. In the right hands even a poor camera can produce stunning results. But for the sake of your theory and the RAW ouput is identical in quality (extremly unlikely), the BMCC has a great second string codec set of choices. One of the most common complaints about REDs is theres no inbuilt ProRes/DNxHD in them so they lose jobs to Alexia on workflow. And ProRes/DNxHD is leagues better for editing and grading than H264. Even if your convinced that FF is the one true sensor size thats a massive blow to the 5Ds case that it's better than the BMCC.

If you are looking for a budget video camera from canon then a C100 with an external recorder is likely a much better bet than the MK3. I'd love to see what ML could do with the C100 et al. I suspect if they put their minds to it they could drag alot more out of it video wise.

If FF is a trump card for someone this discussion is meaningless anyway, no BMD camera that we know of offers it. The ML advancement doesn't improve the 5D against any BMD products in such a comparison as BMD doesnt produce a camera that passes the entry requirements.
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