Black Magic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K Super Slow Motion

Hi!

There is one thing that is stopping me from buying the new Pocket Cinema Camera and it's the same thing that stopped me from buying Sony mirrorless camera. That is the crop for Super Slow Motion. I know there is crop in other cameras, but ie. Red cameras have a small crop to achieve 100fps. 2x crop is just too much (lens resolution reasons, lens focal length reasons).

Do you think it's an easy software update for BlackMagicDesign to give us full sensor 100fps?

No, the issue is the sensor read out time, which full sensor, 4K (17.9) is 16.2ms, but it is 7.8ms for HD crop. 16ms is too slow for full 120fps, but you can overcrank to around 80fps in UHD 16:9, which should be around 14ms. This is the same reason the Sony and Panasonic GH5S all crop for higher speed frame rates — it is the sensor thst is the bottleneck.
Cheers

I think the crop in GH5S is only above 200fps.
I'd like to see 100fps with no crop, or minimal crop (ie. 10-20%), but thank you for telling me about 80fps in UHD. I will test it as soon as someone in my area buys one.

Cheers!

There is one thing that is stopping me from buying the new Pocket Cinema Camera and it's the same thing that stopped me from buying Sony mirrorless camera. That is the crop for Super Slow Motion. I know there is crop in other cameras, but ie. Red cameras have a small crop to achieve 100fps. 2x crop is just too much (lens resolution reasons, lens focal length reasons).

Depends on the Red. On mine the crop to get to 100fps is HUGE -- 25% of my sensor. It hasn't been a problem though; I just plan ahead for slow motion shots.

Try it out; you'll probably find it to be more usable than you'd expect. Plus, even 60-80fps gives you a surprisingly pleasing slow motion effect.

If you start with a decent slo-mo and the associated shorter exposure times, some further slowing down by optical flow will give you nicer results than the same from standard fps.

And then one day there'll be the Nvidia stuff…

No, the issue is the sensor read out time, which full sensor, 4K (17.9) is 16.2ms, but it is 7.8ms for HD crop. 16ms is too slow for full 120fps, but you can overcrank to around 80fps in UHD 16:9, which should be around 14ms. This is the same reason the Sony and Panasonic GH5S all crop for higher speed frame rates — it is the sensor thst is the bottleneck.
Cheers

So you're able to go up to 80fps in UHD 4k on the Pocket? Is that what I'm understanding?

If you start with a decent slo-mo and the associated shorter exposure times, some further slowing down by optical flow will give you nicer results than the same from standard fps.

And then one day there'll be the Nvidia stuff…

Nah... Lert's not get too crazy, I'm an not expecting 200fps or anything like that. I just want 100fps with no crop or minimal crop - that is all I'm asking for.

Page 15 of the BMP4K manual says the maximum frame rate at 4k if 60fps and at HD it is 120fps

No, the issue is the sensor read out time, which full sensor, 4K (17.9) is 16.2ms, but it is 7.8ms for HD crop. 16ms is too slow for full 120fps, but you can overcrank to around 80fps in UHD 16:9, which should be around 14ms. This is the same reason the Sony and Panasonic GH5S all crop for higher speed frame rates — it is the sensor thst is the bottleneck.
Cheers

So you're able to go up to 80fps in UHD 4k on the Pocket? Is that what I'm understanding?

Now that the new PCC4K manual is out, looks like UHD is also capped at 60fps, even in off Speed recording, at this time. The rumored 80fps is not listed in the manual, so it looks like no higher than 60fps, except in HD window which goes from 61-120 FPS. Sorry for any confusion.
Cheers

So I just found out that it's the same sensor as in GH5S and that camera can have 100fps FullHD on full sensor read-out. So if it's possible - BlackMagic - please enable 100fps FullHD from the full sensor.

So I just found out that it's the same sensor as in GH5S and that camera can have 100fps FullHD on full sensor read-out. So if it's possible - BlackMagic - please enable 100fps FullHD from the full sensor.

The sensor can do 4K @ 120 fps and 1080p @ 240 fps but only when the sensor is in 10-bit readout mode. Blackmagic only uses 12-bit modes.

Also, the only way you'd get full sensor HD is in ProRes so even if Blackmagic decided to use the 10-bit readout modes, we do not know if it could debayer a 4K image, scale down, apply a LUT, encode, and write to the card at twice the rate that it's currently able to.

I'm more than happy to trade of 12-bit for 100fps full sensor read-out. 10-bit would be enough.

I see your points - there are many uncertainties.

Is there a way that someone from Blackmagicdesign can shed a little light on this subject?

Once you get used to that 12-bit footage, you might change your mind.

Once you get used to that 12-bit footage, you might change your mind.

That's not the point. The point is to have an option if the hardware is capable of doing full sensor 100fps FullHD at 10-bit.

I used to shoot 96fps all the time with my GH4, now I have a GH5 and having been shooting 60fps. I plan to use 4k 60 on my new pocket.

96fps looks SO SLOW now. It's kind of ridiculous unless you're shooting sports or watching a bowling ball smash a watermelon. 60fps is plenty for music videos. I don't know if I've ever seen slow motion in an actual film other than action movies. 120 or 240fps may have a place for very short dramatization but anything over 2-3 seconds at that speed is overkill imho. Even for music videos... It can also become a crutch very quickly.

The only time 90fps is useful, is if your project frame rate is 29.97 or 30fps, then 90 gives about the same X3 slowmo effect as 60fps with a 24/25 FPS project frame rate. But, I think this is beyond the capacity of the new PCC4K camera to process. Most slowmo is done at X2 anyway, which 60fps will cover.
Cheers

I used to shoot 96fps all the time with my GH4, now I have a GH5 and having been shooting 60fps. I plan to use 4k 60 on my new pocket.

96fps looks SO SLOW now. It's kind of ridiculous unless you're shooting sports or watching a bowling ball smash a watermelon. 60fps is plenty for music videos. I don't know if I've ever seen slow motion in an actual film other than action movies. 120 or 240fps may have a place for very short dramatization but anything over 2-3 seconds at that speed is overkill imho. Even for music videos... It can also become a crutch very quickly.

Great point of view, but again it's not about proving anyone what kind of shots are good, bad, useful or not.

I'm asking if the hardware can do it because for my purpose Pocket 4K would replace my GH5 cameras and I use them for run and gun situations where I very often switch between normal framerate and 100fps and the crop is cumbersome (tested it with the A7SII).

So again: just to be clear, it's not about if it's overkill or if it's useful. The question is: can the hardware record 100fps FullHD with full sensor read-out.

Andrew, that is a question only BM can answer, and you need to direct it to them via their Support Page.
We can only speculate on what the camera can or can not do, as we do not have enough data to respond.
Cheers

I don't know if I've ever seen slow motion in an actual film other than action movies. 120 or 240fps may have a place for very short dramatization but anything over 2-3 seconds at that speed is overkill imho. Even for music videos... It can also become a crutch very quickly.

I'm with you on that. I *can* record up to 240fps, but I've yet to find a use for it other than when I was trying it out to see what it looked like. 120fps is actually very nice, but even so I've only used it a few times in the last year.

It does get overused a lot. It looks cool, so a lot of filmmakers try to use slo mo to make up for mediocre storytelling and otherwise low production value. Kind of like the gimbal and drone madness...

I'm asking if the hardware can do it because for my purpose Pocket 4K would replace my GH5 cameras and I use them for run and gun situations where I very often switch between normal framerate and 100fps and the crop is cumbersome (tested it with the A7SII)

Why on earth do you even consider moving from GH5 to a bmpcc4k camera if you do mostly run n gun work? The only reason in my mind is to get a more cinematic image.. right? Well I beg the differ. It’s much easier to get a cinematic image with the GH5 in a run n gun situation. And that’s all about IBIS. With IBIS you can use a speed booster and any lenses that will produce better results. with bmpcc4k you only got micro 4/3 lenses with built in stabilisation, and those are super sharp and look far from cinematic. Bmpcc4k with a speed booster and other lenses = shaken and stirred. You also got better slowmotion capability with the GH5. The Bmpcc4k camera is a cinema camera that can do run n gun in an ok fashion, but only ok, not great like the Gh5. And we are not even talking about battery time... Different tool altogether IMO.

I would pay for a "no crop HFR" upadate! I really like 100/120fps but I just hate this crop factor

I would pay for a "no crop HFR" upadate! I really like 100/120fps but I just hate this crop factor

Yes! Yes! Exactly!