Blackmagic RAW for BMMCC?

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Dmitry Shijan

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Blackmagic RAW for BMMCC?

PostSat Sep 15, 2018 1:54 am

Will Blackmagic Micro Cinema Camera have BRAW support in future?
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Denny Smith

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Re: Blackmagic RAW for BMMCC?

PostSat Sep 15, 2018 2:22 am

According to the latest from BM only the UM Pro and Pocket Camera 4K, have Braw in the works.
Info about the new M Raw on the older cameras is not available.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: Blackmagic RAW for BMMCC?

PostSat Sep 15, 2018 2:48 pm

He does talk about bringing it to other BM cameras. Remember they talked about RAW on a micro. Even HDMI is just streams of data you can pack file data into. I wouldn't hold your breadth for BRaw on the microstudio, say, but the idea of putting uncompressed Raw over SDI, and then HDMI, kicked off a long time ago. I knew the guy trying to do a SDI raw recorder format around 14 years ago, and somebody else suggested doing over HDMI.
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George Leon

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Re: Blackmagic RAW for BMMCC?

PostSun Sep 23, 2018 9:40 am

Would love to see BMMCC support. I suspect it's capable as it already supports compressed DNG and uses an FPGA (which can be reprogrammed for new processing tasks) - so more a question of whether it's a priority for BMD.
Last edited by George Leon on Sun Sep 23, 2018 10:29 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Ryan Payne

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Re: Blackmagic RAW for BMMCC?

PostSun Sep 23, 2018 9:52 am

+1 for micro cinema support. Would love to get it even at a reduced compression, not sure how much compression 1080 could take?

Especially when the pocket 4k in Braw will be putting out similar file sizes to 1080p prores HQ. Would be lovely to shoot hours of 1080p raw on a 64g card.

Would be great to clean up moire, noise and reduce file sizes, the reduced detail/sharpness is slightly concerning but looks no worse than prores. (I guess that's the reason for better moire)

The extended video profile would be immensely helpful also!
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Dmitry Shijan

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Re: Blackmagic RAW for BMMCC?

PostThu Mar 07, 2019 10:06 am

So maybe we'll see BRAW for BMMCC see soon? Ii seems BM calmed that after P4K they will put braw to the rest of 4.6K cameras and looking forward to other cameras if it will be possible. My guess BRAW may fix Cross-Hatching and produce less FPN.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: Blackmagic RAW for BMMCC?

PostThu Mar 07, 2019 2:05 pm

Well, presumably maybe they will have to replace cdng on all the cameras. As it presumably is lighter and more compact, does that mean the Pocket will get new firmware with 50fps now? :)
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George Leon

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Re: Blackmagic RAW for BMMCC?

PostThu Mar 07, 2019 2:09 pm

Another massive +1 for the BMMCC. BRAW is so utterly superior in every way, it's totally the way to go. I'm sure the cams can handle it as it's lighter weight than DNG and the FPGA in there most likely makes it very possible.

I shoot 3:1 RAW regularly, and DNG files are SUCH a pain. I would happily pay a reasonable amount for a firmware upgrade, because the benefit would be immense.

EDIT:

btw, a tool that can re-encode DNG footage to BRAW would be so useful for archiving.
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George Leon

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Re: Blackmagic RAW for BMMCC?

PostThu Mar 07, 2019 2:17 pm

Wayne Steven wrote:Well, presumably maybe they will have to replace cdng on all the cameras.


Yes I was wondering about that too due to the apparent patent claim that BM was advised of (which caused them to remove DNG altogether from the P4K). Of course that probably sucks for BM, but maybe it will accelerate BRAW implementation for their older cams? I would have no problem to lose DNG, as long as Resolve continues to decode it off course (why wouldn't it).
Last edited by George Leon on Thu Mar 07, 2019 3:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Blackmagic RAW for BMMCC?

PostThu Mar 07, 2019 3:22 pm

First: it's unlikely that the older cameras (pre-Ursa Mini) have the hardware to handle the Blackmagic raw processing. Definitely not enough cooling in the OG Pocket to run at 50 fps.

Second: It's likely that BMD won't have to touch the legacy products in terms of CDNG - more than likely it will be removed in future firmware updates, which legacy products that are more likely to be replaced than updated won't have to be touched.
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George Leon

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Re: Blackmagic RAW for BMMCC?

PostThu Mar 07, 2019 3:26 pm

michaeldhead wrote:First: it's unlikely that the older cameras (pre-Ursa Mini) have the hardware to handle the Blackmagic raw processing. Definitely not enough cooling in the OG Pocket to run at 50 fps.


I think you're wrong there, de-bayering is already in the cams for the non-RAW formats, so the partial-debayer (whatever they exactly do for BRAW) should be less work than that.

The rest is typical RAW format storage, except writing a continuous file is more efficient than individual DNGs (which also each need their own header/metadata). So speaking as a programmer, I see no technical reason why BRAW couldn't be implemented on older cams. It's really a question of priority. As they're still selling the BMMCC for example, it's likely that the patent claim would affect it too. You may be right about discontinued models though.
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Re: Blackmagic RAW for BMMCC?

PostThu Mar 07, 2019 3:35 pm

George Leon wrote:I think you're wrong there, de-bayering is already in the cams for the non-RAW formats, so the partial-debayer (whatever they exactly do for BRAW) should be less work than that.



And a Windows 3 computer can run Anthem at full resolution.
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George Leon

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Re: Blackmagic RAW for BMMCC?

PostThu Mar 07, 2019 3:43 pm

michaeldhead wrote:
George Leon wrote:And a Windows 3 computer can run Anthem at full resolution.


You don't seem to understand how this works technically. A RAW format takes less processing power than a non-RAW format, as those need far more processing (including a full debayer). There is compression going on in both types, and recent DNG capable cams (like the BMMCC) already implement an optional form of RAW compression.

This isn't about camera processing power, it's about software development resources.
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Re: Blackmagic RAW for BMMCC?

PostThu Mar 07, 2019 4:00 pm

George Leon wrote:
michaeldhead wrote:First: it's unlikely that the older cameras (pre-Ursa Mini) have the hardware to handle the Blackmagic raw processing. Definitely not enough cooling in the OG Pocket to run at 50 fps.


I think you're wrong there, de-bayering is already in the cams for the non-RAW formats, so the partial-debayer (whatever they exactly do for BRAW) should be less work than that.

The rest is typical RAW format storage, except writing a continuous file is more efficient than individual DNGs (which also each need their own header/metadata). So speaking as a programmer, I see no technical reason why BRAW couldn't be implemented on older cams. It's really a question of priority. As they're still selling the BMMCC for example, it's likely that the patent claim would affect it too. You may be right about discontinued models though.


That's right.
I also don't understand what people are referring to when they say that the BMMCC/BMPCC can't do it? Not true! The FPGA chip from older cameras can do more than some people think.
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Re: Blackmagic RAW for BMMCC?

PostThu Mar 07, 2019 4:03 pm

michaeldhead wrote:
George Leon wrote:And a Windows 3 computer can run Anthem at full resolution.


Please deal with FPGA technology.
There are heigh speed cameras that work with the same FPGA chip as older Blackmagic cameras.
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Dmitry Shijan

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Re: Blackmagic RAW for BMMCC?

PostThu Mar 07, 2019 4:28 pm

I am not a tech specialist but i hear that FPGA is one of the most complicated things ever possible. The main problem is -> more different cameras -> more different firmware updates -> more months to coding.
So my guess BM just don't interested to update cameras that are no longer manufactured.
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George Leon

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Re: Blackmagic RAW for BMMCC?

PostThu Mar 07, 2019 4:40 pm

Dmitry Shijan wrote:I am not a tech specialist but i hear that FPGA is one of the most complicated things ever possible.


I've never coded for those, I'm sure it's pretty complex. But they already have the code from other cameras, so that's not the main problem.

The main problem is -> more different cameras -> more different firmware updates -> more months to coding.
So my guess BM just don't interested to update cameras that are no longer manufactured.


Yes that's the issue. They don't just have to code it, but then also support it with new press releases, documentation, support queries etc. But with the patent action, it might become a priority for them (I hope), at least for currently shipping cameras.
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Xtreemtec

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Re: Blackmagic RAW for BMMCC?

PostThu Mar 07, 2019 4:52 pm

Don't forget that the BMPCC 4K has a much heavier FPGA in there that has much more processing power then the FPGA that is into the BMMCC. (Which i guess is a Spartan 6, same as the old Pocket cam)

I'm not that deep into FPGA's but everybody can do the math that a much more powerfull processor which does Braw against a older (8/9 year old architecture FPGA) can not handle. ;)

Not sure what FPGA is in the Pocket 4K. But from the video i have seen i guess the Virtex or Kintex series which are much much more powerfull..
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Re: Blackmagic RAW for BMMCC?

PostThu Mar 07, 2019 8:40 pm

George Leon wrote:You don't seem to understand how this works technically. A RAW format takes less processing power than a non-RAW format, as those need far more processing (including a full debayer). There is compression going on in both types, and recent DNG capable cams (like the BMMCC) already implement an optional form of RAW compression.

This isn't about camera processing power, it's about software development resources.


I'm pretty sure I fully understand that partial in-camera demosaicing takes more processing power than simple raw acquisition.

But I also watched this:

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Re: Blackmagic RAW for BMMCC?

PostThu Mar 07, 2019 8:42 pm

lee4ever wrote:Please deal with FPGA technology.
There are heigh speed cameras that work with the same FPGA chip as older Blackmagic cameras.


Ok - show me that those cameras have the same processing pipeline and COOLING as older Blackmagic cameras.

Or just double overclock your computer without adding any extra cooling and watch it melt.

Or don't, because this has been discussed before and got locked. It's not going to happen.
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Re: Blackmagic RAW for BMMCC?

PostThu Mar 07, 2019 8:53 pm

I see a few potential signs pointing to either 1) a new micro cinema camera and new Video Assists to be announced at NAB, or 2) an announcement that the micro cinema camera will be discontinued, or 3) new firmware for these products, or 4) BMD-branded SD cards, or 5) some combination of the above possibilities.

1. There are almost no new SD cards commercially available that work in the BMMCC or the Video Assist, so people who buy those units today are effectively stuck with an unusable product (it kind of amazes me that BMD is still selling them, in fact).

2. The BMMCC and the Video Assists record cDNG so if BMD continues to sell the current models they'll presumably need to do something about that, either through firmware changes or by discontinuing the current models and replacing them with new ones (that add the ability to record to SSD or some other medium and can record BRAW).
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Re: Blackmagic RAW for BMMCC?

PostThu Mar 07, 2019 11:10 pm

If you don't see an update for Braw support anytime soon, that means you'll probably see a new version of the Micro at NAB. The reason why is because if they're getting into legal problems with CDNG, they're not gonna want to keep selling a camera that still supports it. And I doubt they'll just do an update that'll remove it, because many probably aren't gonna update it if they aren't given a replacement like BRAW.
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George Leon

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Re: Blackmagic RAW for BMMCC?

PostFri Mar 08, 2019 2:22 am

michaeldhead wrote:I'm pretty sure I fully understand that partial in-camera demosaicing takes more processing power than simple raw acquisition.


Yeah, and less than a full debayer for non-RAW formats, which all the cameras support.
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Re: Blackmagic RAW for BMMCC?

PostFri Mar 08, 2019 3:15 am

George Leon wrote:
michaeldhead wrote:
George Leon wrote:And a Windows 3 computer can run Anthem at full resolution.


You don't seem to understand how this works technically. A RAW format takes less processing power than a non-RAW format, as those need far more processing (including a full debayer). There is compression going on in both types, and recent DNG capable cams (like the BMMCC) already implement an optional form of RAW compression.

This isn't about camera processing power, it's about software development resources.


Don't bother arguing with Michael George, he is one of the handful.

The Rest:

Pocket4k handles 4x or so the data, if course they are using a beefier FOGA, but that 100% doesn't prove that braw is too much at 1/4 the datarate to handle on the old chip.

I'll pain the picture, Braw shares a lot with prores, unless a newer type of JPEG is used, like JPEG xs. If so, there still might be a lot of processing sections shared. If not it goes like this:

JPEG -> Prores, CDNG, Braw
Live Bayer for view or complete debayer -> Prores, Braw.

So, Braw becomes a slightly more sophisticated but similar in processing load to DNG, but in effect, as live view debayer is still performed under dng, but used for recording here, likely even more similar.

It becomes maybe slightly less then prores intensive modes.

So, yes, it could well be.

Another interesting fact. That as far as FPGA processing sections on their own goes, data is data, despite the camera. How much of it, and the formating of the data matters. The bits that matter per camera is the interfaces to the camera system between the processing and the camera system, and those systems, which don't do so much work or are the same (recording and HDMI sections as an example).

So, the older camera would need to likely be close to being tapped out for serving similar to be impossible.

Now, the other thread has been closed, likely, the sort of thing which happens due to legal concerns.

If the older cameras are built after the legal document in question, then they are caught up. If they were built before the they are prior art so that type of recording on newer caneess shouldn't be caught up (except in the resolution recorded question, but seriously, ever jurisdiction has there own option to deny this).

So, there is motivation to change older cameras, but that is past concern and hopefully is between the cameras new owners and the offending do documentation since.

Now, I would love to see new optional firmware with feature improvements and Braw, and an optional firmware with improvements but without Braw that could try to insert itself around cdng, for those who want to keep their cdng everybody very happy.
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Re: Blackmagic RAW for BMMCC?

PostFri Mar 08, 2019 4:17 am

Wayne Steven wrote:[
Don't bother arguing with Michael George, he is one of the handful.

.


:D

You're such a nice, thoughtful person. Especially since if by "handful" you mean "everyone but you and one other who understands how computer systems actually work and know how to avoid melting computer circuits".
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Re: Blackmagic RAW for BMMCC?

PostFri Mar 08, 2019 4:26 am

I haven't been able to find the Bayer recording patent covered on Wikipedia yet (in order to get a better idea if there is need to replace cdng on the BMCC etc). It's like it should he there, but has been removed.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: Blackmagic RAW for BMMCC?

PostFri Mar 08, 2019 4:28 am

Like so much else, I think you might have misunderstood that Michael. :)
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Re: Blackmagic RAW for BMMCC?

PostFri Mar 08, 2019 4:54 am

Wayne Steven wrote:I haven't been able to find the Bayer recording patent covered on Wikipedia yet (in order to get a better idea if there is need to replace cdng on the BMCC etc). It's like it should he there, but has been removed.


The BMCC has an option for uncompressed raw. So I thought that was safe.


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Re: Blackmagic RAW for BMMCC?

PostFri Mar 08, 2019 4:57 am

You know, I had this candidate trying to argue with me on the one once, saying you can't develop on a certain area because it was a flood plain (not that it was too low, but took massive overflow in backup). Bewildering, he didn't consider the answer is "engineering" like they have dine in other places. Wide drainage moving the soil to the extremities making a development zone along low parkland next to the creek which could take flood water. It is farm land which might flood s few times a year, or not. He is a system analyst. I had a ... reply to me in the paper about how I was wrong about how a certain channel moved etc (I was quoting a history record) and I think about how you couldn't control the shoreline. He had the wrong historical event and again no consideration of engineering. I think he might have been one of those minor TV interview personalities, as I overheard one sprouting similar things after a conference soon afterwards. No consideration such things have been done in the world for a long time.

So, engineering around, through and moving problems does do more, but so many 'experts' don't seem to be good at figuring it.

I'm not getting into the higher frame rate stuff (except in the last I was going to suggest if the old target is not possible, people say the new camera might have a 120fps sensor, as a joke, we don't know which it has). But, if the BMCC can run Braw, more power to them. I definitely would think a lot more of BM if they did that as a pure option. It would show them as nice guys giving quality service even after all that time. What more could you ask for in reputation?

So, leave them to it Michael, don't need to rain on things. Try figuring out how it could he done instead.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: Blackmagic RAW for BMMCC?

PostFri Mar 08, 2019 5:00 am

Rick, good point.
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George Leon

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Re: Blackmagic RAW for BMMCC?

PostSun Aug 04, 2019 9:05 pm

Anybody heard anything new?
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Dmitry Shijan

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Re: Blackmagic RAW for BMMCC?

PostWed Aug 07, 2019 6:19 pm

Probably we will know it for sure tomorrow

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George Leon

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Re: Blackmagic RAW for BMMCC?

PostWed Aug 07, 2019 6:26 pm

cool, missed that. fingers crossed.
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Dmitry Shijan

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Re: Blackmagic RAW for BMMCC?

PostWed Aug 14, 2019 2:17 am

So i just watched this video and it seems that dumb RED patent is related to only at least 2K cameras. So BMMCC cameras could easy have DNG and BRAW at same time. Wonder why there are no any firmware updates yet.


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George Leon

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Re: Blackmagic RAW for BMMCC?

PostFri Oct 25, 2019 5:47 pm

any news either way?
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Re: Blackmagic RAW for BMMCC?

PostFri Oct 25, 2019 7:24 pm

Dmitry Shijan wrote:So i just watched this video and it seems that dumb RED patent is related to only at least 2K cameras. So BMMCC cameras could easy have DNG and BRAW at same time. Wonder why there are no any firmware updates yet.


Image


People might claim, it's an old product, BM shouldn't care about it, it's not worth their time, or at least about the pocket, but the micro is in a similar boat as the pocket was back then, which was on sale after Braw.
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