BRAW & NLEs

There's been some discussion about support for "the new kid on the block" in all our favorite NLEs (for those of us who don't use Resolve end-to-end.

The standard answer had been "well it will be up to the developers to support it". But what I am wondering is what about BMs responsibility to ensure usability in other NLEs.

Personally I use FCPX for my work - and to read Canon Cinema raw (not my camera a friend's who I cut & grade for) I had to install a plug-in from the Canon support site. Would BM not be able to do the same?

I realize they want world domination - and to have everyone use Resolve for everything - and now Apple might be pissed that ProRes Raw has a competitor, so the question is - who's responsibility is it too make sure the new codec can be used.

Don't know the situation with Premiere - but I would assume that there are at least as couple of people wanting the ability to use them there to

But what I am wondering is what about BMs responsibility to ensure usability in other NLEs.

BMD already made the BMDraw SDK available - for free. They basically said, "Here's how you incorporate two years of development into your editor. No, no, put away your wallet. Just take it."

What else do you want BMD do to? Code Premiere for Adobe?

First of all - relax with the tone. I never said that BM had done ANYTHING wrong or unexpected in today's business market - or that the owed us any more than what they have given.

Second of course I don't expect then to code Premiere/FCP X/Avid for them. But there has been a history of codec producers creating their own import/support plugins for various NLEs - that's why I mentioned Canon Cinema raw.

Personally I can edit in Resolve - do I want to, not if I'm can avoid it - I'm faster in FCP X. But my post was a question not a demand. The easiest way to ensure that the most people use the new codec would be to supply plugins for the leading NLEs from the get go. All I want is widespread adoption of the codec and watch it bury ProRes raw.

The standard answer had been "well it will be up to the developers to support it". But what I am wondering is what about BMs responsibility to ensure usability in other NLEs.

The SDK Blackmagic released for BRAW includes API documentation for integrating it into the NLE and DLLs for decoding so it should have the same decoding performance in any NLE.

I was using hyperbole - an exaggerated statement not meant to be taken seriously. I thought the "wallet" part would get that across, but next time I'll use a smiley.

the weakness of online communication, lack of body language and tone...

The answer to the question is this: BMD has already made it incredibly simple for other companies to include Braw decoding in their programs - they could not have made it any easier. It is just a matter of the other companies incorporating the SDK into their next update. I might be wrong, but I would think there would be enough user demand that it should be a no brainer.

Personally, I know Premiere best, I'm learning Resolve, and I just don't like FCPX (personal preference). But I've done very unscientific Prores raw tests when it was released, and when I get the P4k and Braw I plan to do some side by side comparisons.

I'm still thinking about the logistics of video comparisons from two raw formats that work in different programs... If you have any recommendations, I would welcome any advice.

I agree that BM made it easy to integrate, but we’re still dependent on a third party (Adobe, Apple) to do that. If it was a plug-in like the one for Canon as mentioned above already, it could just work. Or am I mistaken?

I aagree that BM made it easy to integrate, but we’re still dependent on a third party (Adobe, Apple) to do that. If it was a plug-in like the one for Canon as mentioned above already, it could just work. Or am I mistaken?

I think the difference is that Canon doesn't make an NLE so they have nothing to lose by writing plugins for NLEs to use Canon Cinema raw. But why, from a business perspective, should BMD spend its own money to write plugins for competing products?

Do I think that BM owes us anything more than the great codec & SDK that they have given us - not by a long shot.

But as Maarten Butter writes

we’re still dependent on a third party (Adobe, Apple) to do that

and their motivation for supporting a new codec is demand. And let's not kid ourselves, we are very active and loyal group of owners, but I'm pretty sure that if you looked at the total amount of footage ingested daily to NLEs, BM cameras are down the list. So until we own the camera market, their implementing a new codec is... "if they feel like it" - especially Apple - and yes I'm an Apple fanboy, but also realistic

I guess for me the basic question is - and let's make the question a little more generic - if you invent something that requires an adapter, to insure widespread use - would it not be better to make the adapter yourself, than hope that uninvested third parties do it sooner or later.

The only thing - and it's a big thing that muddies the whole situation, and was previously mentioned by a couple of people is - BM is also now in the NLE business.

Now I hope that this thread becomes moot with next release of updates for FCPX and Premiere, I guess we'll just have to see what happens.

I guess for me the basic question is - and let's make the question a little more generic - if you invent something that requires an adapter, to insure widespread use - would it not be better to make the adapter yourself, than hope that uninvested third parties do it sooner or later.

BMD DID provide that adapter. That's precisely what the SDK is.

Both Adobe and Apple have working version of Red's SDK...

The only thing - and it's a big thing that muddies the whole situation, and was previously mentioned by a couple of people is - BM is also now in the NLE business.

Ignoring Braw would only entice more people into trying Resolve...

It's definitely coming. Adobe must provide it otherwise they will lose some people purely due to lack of BM RAW support. Same applies to other NLE makers maybe with just slightly with different "importance".
Don't get it why people are so inpatient. Looks like BM kept it as secret, so there was no talking between companies and no time to implement ahead.
There was some post showing Lightworks implementation is already happening.

I’ve been looking for a way away from Adobe since the went subscription. This might be the straw that canceled the subscription.

I’ve been looking for a way away from Adobe since the went subscription. This might be the straw that canceled the subscription.

You now have access to one of the few NLEs that is a direct competitor with Avid's, has a clean workflow and quality color, audio and FX tools, all for a whopping $300... and you still need an excuse?

Just drop CC and dive into Resolve. Save money, be happier.

You now have access to one of the few NLEs that is a direct competitor with Avid's, has a clean workflow and quality color, audio and FX tools, all for a whopping $300... and you still need an excuse?

Just drop CC and dive into Resolve. Save money, be happier.

It's not even for $300 when I get my P4k....

You now have access to one of the few NLEs that is a direct competitor with Avid's, has a clean workflow and quality color, audio and FX tools, all for a whopping $300... and you still need an excuse?

Just drop CC and dive into Resolve. Save money, be happier.

It's not even for $300 when I get my P4k....

Exactly

Besides, why do you think Adobe's trying to revamp its color tools? It's because Adobe knows that Resolve is its biggest threat...

... and that Resolve is winning.

What Adobe doesn't realize is that Resolve isn't winning because of the fact that it doesn't cost enough. It's winning because Black Magic is listening to what the high end folks want, and giving that to everyone for next to nothing.

Adobe must provide it otherwise they will lose some people purely due to lack of BM RAW support.

I think you're overestimating the importance of "Blackmagic" in the grander scheme of things. Adobe hasn't even adopted their flavor of compressed CDNG for 5(?) years now, why should they care about BRAW? If Blackmagic wants BRAW to gain traction, THEY will have to ensure it is widely supported in NLEs... I'm sure they are working on it with Adobe and others...

I think you're overestimating the importance of "Blackmagic" in the grander scheme of things. Adobe hasn't even adopted their flavor of compressed CDNG for 5(?) years now, why should they care about BRAW? If Blackmagic wants BRAW to gain traction, THEY will have to ensure it is widely supported in NLEs... I'm sure they are working on it with Adobe and others...

BMD released an SDK for Braw so anyone - including Adobe - can just drop in Braw support into their next update.

Lightworks already has working BRAW: viewtopic.php?f=12&t=79307 More info and video on the Lightworks forum

I'm honestly more worried about AVID working with it than anything else-- though we could always DNxHD it on set via DIT then come back to it later on post edit.

I think you're overestimating the importance of "Blackmagic" in the grander scheme of things. Adobe hasn't even adopted their flavor of compressed CDNG for 5(?) years now, why should they care about BRAW? If Blackmagic wants BRAW to gain traction, THEY will have to ensure it is widely supported in NLEs... I'm sure they are working on it with Adobe and others...

It's the other way around. Adobe knows full well how big a threat Resolve is to the post world. Anyone who's not been living off grid since before NAB knows that.

Avid is looking into it from Avid's forum:


Looking into it but nothing to share yet

Marianna

Adobe doesn't sell cameras, so they better integrate it or they loose more clients.

I think you're overestimating the importance of "Blackmagic" in the grander scheme of things. Adobe hasn't even adopted their flavor of compressed CDNG for 5(?) years now, why should they care about BRAW? If Blackmagic wants BRAW to gain traction, THEY will have to ensure it is widely supported in NLEs... I'm sure they are working on it with Adobe and others...

It's the other way around. Adobe knows full well how big a threat Resolve is to the post world. Anyone who's not been living off grid since before NAB knows that.

I wouldn't say Resolve is a threat - if anything, Resolve has more in-roads in the post world that Adobe did for a long time. Resolve has been the defacto color grading software for a long time - Adobe tried to get a piece of that market with Speedgrade, but that didn't go anywhere.

When Apple messed up after Final Cut 7, Adobe did jump into pro-level post in a big way, but Resolve has been just as fast to capitalize on the more open field of pro-post - and it seems like they are making a lot of progress.

Nuke isn't an NLE but just for fun I started writing .braw reader plugin. Currently I have image and metadata, next thing is to add knobs for changing settings. A quick overview video from yesterday (no sound, choose music yourself):

I wouldn't say Resolve is a threat - if anything, Resolve has more in-roads in the post world that Adobe did for a long time.

From Adobe's point of view, that makes Resolve a threat. A huge one, given that if it were priced at $30,000 rather than $300, it would be a bargain compared to its actual competitors.

To be honest; I really' don't think Adobe is worried about video at all. Their bread and butter is, and always has been, Photoshop/Illustrator. Dreamweaver and Premier are nice ancillaries; but they are in no way the main drive of the company.

If anyone should be worried it's Avid; who are basically ONLY video editing. As Resolve slowly, makes a kind-of-workable-though-not-really-never-bet-the-farm-on NLE, they might start to worry-- though thus far, still have little to worry about.

Hello,

You can use BRAW Studio to import .BRAW into Adobe Premiere Pro (https://autokroma.com/BRAW_Studio/), only for windows as of now but OSX and others hosts will come at some point.

Regards,
Antoine

Hello,

You can use BRAW Studio to import .BRAW into Adobe Premiere Pro (https://autokroma.com/BRAW_Studio/), only for windows as of now but OSX and others hosts will come at some point.

Regards,
Antoine

This is worth you making a new thread for so people don't miss it

This is worth you making a new thread for so people don't miss it

Here it is : https://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=85454

To be honest; I really' don't think Adobe is worried about video at all. Their bread and butter is, and always has been, Photoshop/Illustrator. Dreamweaver and Premier are nice ancillaries; but they are in no way the main drive of the company.

The weddings industry is pretty much dominated by Premiere, and there are a also enterprise customers who use the CC suite -- often using custom Premiere builds, since the regular ones are so buggy...

Adobe's been trying to get into the Hollywood market... and was making some inroads when Black Magic hit the industry over the head with v14. The writing is clearly on the wall; Black Magic wants Resolve to become a powerhouse in the entire post production pipeline, and is willing to put whatever work it needs to into doing that... except for buying its way in. Which means that it's making headway because customers want it, not because they're being bribed into wanting it.

Its insanely low price tag certainly doesn't hurt though...

...The weddings industry is pretty much dominated by Premiere, and there are a also enterprise customers who use the CC suite -- often using custom Premiere builds, since the regular one's are so buggy...

Adobe's been trying to get into the Hollywood market... and was making some inroads when Black Magic hit the industry over the head with v14. The writing is clearly on the wall; Black Magic wants Resolve to become a powerhouse in the entire post production pipeline, and is willing to put whatever work it needs to into doing that... except for buying its way in. Which means that it's making headway because customers want it, not because they're being bribed into wanting it.

Its insanely low price tag certainly doesn't hurt though...

+1

BmD is more interested in selling cameras with braw than resolve but if others dont pick-up braw better for resolve.

Ricardo Marty

Lightworks NLE has had a working BRAW Beta virtually within 24 hours of BMD's announcement. We expect BRAW to be a feature of the new Lightworks v15 release next week.

BmD is more interested in selling cameras with braw than resolve but if others dont pick-up braw better for resolve.

Cameras aren't the only hardware that BMD sells, and more Resolve users encourages more people to buy that other hardware in addition to BMD cameras.

BmD is more interested in selling cameras with braw than resolve but if others dont pick-up braw better for resolve.

Cameras aren't the only hardware that BMD sells, and more Resolve users encourages more people to buy that other hardware in addition to BMD cameras.

Yes, but if braw takes off they will sell more cameras and the content will be worked on only braw capable nle's.

Ricardo Marty

Yes, but if braw takes off they will sell more cameras and the content will be worked on only braw capable nle's.

I suspect that most people buying Pocket 4K cameras will end up working in Resolve since it's included, and those who get serious about their color will hence be enticed into acquiring control surfaces and I/O hardware, mostly from BMD... so again, BMD wins, and so do BMD's customers...

I'm still a fan of Lightworks also though

And now our plugin BRAW Studio is available for Adobe Media Encoder, add that to the list of NLEs !

https://autokroma.com/BRAW_Studio/

I aagree that BM made it easy to integrate, but we’re still dependent on a third party (Adobe, Apple) to do that. If it was a plug-in like the one for Canon as mentioned above already, it could just work. Or am I mistaken?

I think the difference is that Canon doesn't make an NLE so they have nothing to lose by writing plugins for NLEs to use Canon Cinema raw. But why, from a business perspective, should BMD spend its own money to write plugins for competing products?

If I made a camera I'd want the recording format supported as widely as possible. Prores raw is making inroads daily across multiple platforms and devices from Sony, Panasonic, and Canon to name a few. The only thing BMraw is going to bury is it's head in the sand as it's bypassed by Prores raw.

Resolve is mostly free, what are they protecting by not writing plug-ins for other Mfrs. Conversely what do they gain by not including Prores raw in their cameras and NLE. Is this another pissing contest that only hurts the consumer?

The standard answer had been "well it will be up to the developers to support it". But what I am wondering is what about BMs responsibility to ensure usability in other NLEs.

The SDK Blackmagic released for BRAW includes API documentation for integrating it into the NLE and DLLs for decoding so it should have the same decoding performance in any NLE.

As far asI know it's not 1 day process of implementing BRAW to given product. It still requires bit of work, but definitely it's way easier than not having SDK at all.

If BRAW stays supported only in Resolve then it's not good at all. Its actually very bad.
Fortunately it's not the case. Assimilate Scratch supports it already and it's also coming to Edius. Will it come to Adobe- maybe. I think Adobe will support ProRes RAW first.
So far we also have only few cameras which actually can record BRAW, so to be honest globally need for it is not that big at all.

Support for Braw is being worked on at Grassvalley for Edius 9 and will most likely be in the 9.40 update in early May.

Lightworks already has working BRAW: viewtopic.php?f=12&t=79307 More info and video on the Lightworks forum

And I heard that edius is next. But i.m.o.p. if Blackmagic wants BRAW to gain traction and the only way is to make it available to other cameras via a braw capable video assist.

Ricardo Marty

Fact that every NLE will support BRAW with just 2 cameras using it will be about as bad as no NLEs supporting it, but many cameras recording it

And now our plugin BRAW Studio is available for Adobe Media Encoder, add that to the list of NLEs !

https://autokroma.com/BRAW_Studio/

Is there a reason older CCs like 2014/2015 are not supported by your plugin?
I am pretty stuck with 2014 because of ongoing projects over several years and because I know the ins and outs of that version, while Adobe brings a pile of bugs with every new release which I don't have to the time to work around. And you always stumble first over those bugs as soon as you are very deep into a project and there's no way back. Or they just somehow kill an established workflow because they decided to rebuild the underlying engines to something new while removing the old.

I'm sure the Premiere team watches Resolve closely and wants to support as many cameras as possible, but you have to keep things in perspective:

Adobe has a market cap of $132 BILLION on $9B in revenue. They worry about competitors like Microsoft, not BMD.

So are they going to focus more on sexy features that make good headlines and are applicable to everyone, or supporting a niche codec, recently out of beta, used by 2 cameras?

Support will likely come, but if not, all the more reason to try Resolve. (Premiere is a bloated kitchen-sync of an app. It's the Microsoft Word of NLE's. Hell, with the new page, I even get back much of what I lost migrating from FCPX.)

Problem is that for such an analogy Resolve is not an OSX (yet).

You have to make it known to developers that you really want this. This codec isn't exactly in massive use.
For adobe go here and add yourself (https://adobe-video.uservoice.com/forum ... kmagic-raw) every upvote counts

Remember that Adobe knows that people can create a plugin for it (and have), so they need to be pushed.

Problem is that for such an analogy Resolve is not an OSX (yet).

It's not an analogy. The market considers Microsoft to be Adobe's top competitor. As a public company, Adobe is more beholden to the market than users of any one product.

The Premiere team might care somewhat about BMD camera users, but to the entire Adobe org, we are of little consequence. Conversely, each one of us is much more important to BMD.

I agree with this. For Adobe BRAW atm. is nothing of that special attention (I would actually do the same). I predict ProRes RAW will be supported before BRAW as potentially it can bring huge amount of users to Premiere. Resolve should support it as soon as possible as well if BM wants to push Resolve and "best" NLE.

And now our plugin BRAW Studio is available for Adobe Media Encoder, add that to the list of NLEs !

https://autokroma.com/BRAW_Studio/

Is there a reason older CCs like 2014/2015 are not supported by your plugin?
I am pretty stuck with 2014 because of ongoing projects over several years and because I know the ins and outs of that version, while Adobe brings a pile of bugs with every new release which I don't have to the time to work around. And you always stumble first over those bugs as soon as you are very deep into a project and there's no way back. Or they just somehow kill an established workflow because they decided to rebuild the underlying engines to something new while removing the old.

Hi Robert, Sorry to have overlooked your question ! I've answered you here https://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=79658#p521468

BMD have already made it very simple to integrate.

There might be other reasons that companies aren’t adopting. They may be making a choice not to implement it for their own strategic reasons.

Think about it. Apple just launched their own RAW codec based on their own codec that has reaped them a huge income in the last (ProRes).

Why would they effectively endorse a competing product ?

And errr customer demand isn’t enough here if it’s about global company strategic goals. Adobe and AVID have also have long shown that kind of distain for their own customers.

JB

If maybe BMD made the Braw available in a future video assist and make it available a full-featured in studio resolve for non-bmd cameras then they might disrupt the market again.


Ricardo Marty

Yes, I Know it will piss-off a lot of competing companies, so what.