Lenses For Pocket Cinema 4K

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rick.lang

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Lenses For Pocket Cinema 4K

PostThu Nov 08, 2018 7:35 pm

Justin, I can’t think of any lenses from the traditional photo lens manufacturers that meet your criteria. The focal lengths can be done but not that combination in a f/1.8 lens kept constant through the zoom range anywhere close to $1,000.

To put that in perspective remember the Sigma 18-35mm f/1.8 Zoom is the fastest zoom in that range of focal lengths. Doing that feat with a considerably wider zoom is difficult to do in a budget lens.


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Iain Philpott

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Re: Lenses For Pocket Cinema 4K

PostThu Nov 08, 2018 11:47 pm

I have the Panasonic Lumix Vario 12-35 and aside from it being a 'throw it on covers everything' lens I don't think its a great lens and I certainly would not want to shoot a job on it. That was on the original pocket. I've only just taken delivery of my pocket 4K so have not tried it on that yet. So as I was thoroughly unimpressed with the Panasonic I bought 3 Voigtlanders, 17.5, 25 and 42. They transformed the camera so Im really interested to see how they perform on the 4K. They were so good on the original pocket that footage would cut well with the Ursa. However I'm now looking at trying to collect a set of used Veydra's.
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rick.lang

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Re: Lenses For Pocket Cinema 4K

PostFri Nov 09, 2018 2:54 am

Iain, those focal lengths are a good starter set on the BMPCC4K.


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Justin Jackson

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Re: Lenses For Pocket Cinema 4K

PostFri Nov 09, 2018 6:43 am

Rick.. seems like the Sigma 18-35 is still the best option so far. I think with the .75 reduction it would be what, a 13.5 or so? I would hope that is wide enough for most anything, right?
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Re: Lenses For Pocket Cinema 4K

PostFri Nov 09, 2018 6:56 am

I find that 12mm (24mm in FF) is the sweet spot at the widest end, but around 14mm (28mm in FF) works OK as well.
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rick.lang

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Lenses For Pocket Cinema 4K

PostFri Nov 09, 2018 2:59 pm

Justin, minimum focal lengths are a mix of practicality and personal taste in terms of your preferred artistic perspective. When you are working in close quarters and have a need to cover many subjects, on the BMPCC4K with its horizontal crop factor of 1.9x, 18mm behaves like a 35mm lens in terms of stills 135 film dimensions. That’s middle of the road for a wide angle and I would find that lacking at times, particularly shooting indoors. If you were using a Metabones SpeedBooster Ultra, the 0.71x focal reduction brings it to a 24mm equivalent angle of view. You’re right that is likely wide enough to suit nearly every purpose. And using a 12mm lens gets you there without the expense and complications of adding the SpeedBooster.

However there are times when artistic choices may require a much wider view (or even for practical purposes for real estate video). Then you may reach for a 10mm or even 8mm on MFT. Personally though if you’re shooting that wide and moving the camera, you’d better be careful as it can be disorientating for your viewer—which might be your intent.

Edit
A caution though, putting a SpeedBooster on the Sigma 18-35mm may result in a serious vignette. The lens with cover Super 35, but 1.9x 0.71x = 1.35x and that crop isn’t going to allow the lens to cover the frame.

On the original BMCC with 2.28x horizontal crop, even the SpeedBooster XL stays at Super 35 and could be a good choice, but the BMPCC4K is a little wider than normal MFT when shooting DCI 4K. If you shoot UHD on the BMPCC4K, the SpeedBooster and the Sigma 18-35mm may be acceptable with some falloff in the corners.

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Justin Jackson

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Re: Lenses For Pocket Cinema 4K

PostSat Nov 10, 2018 5:15 am

Dang.. you know your boosters and math Rick! So I got that LensRegain on order, which is .75, I was doing the math in my head wrong.. forgot about the 1.9x crop of the camera. I was thinking the Sigma 18-35 would reduce to like 13 or so.. but with the almost 2x crop like you said, it is more like 24.. which is not nearly wide enough in my opinion. I did see (or read...cant remember now) a review of the LensRegain + Sigma that indicate there was no (or maybe little) vignetting. Not sure how true that is yet. At any rate, I have my 28mm canon L F1.8 that I hope will be decent to use for now. I was hoping to keep the booster on the camera to gain that extra stop and purchase EF lenses for now. I also wanted to take advantage of the LensRegain focus/iris controls via the wireless module. But I can see/agree that a 12mm MFT lens might be necessary for something like real-estate video to avoid the crop and potential vignetting issues. Ill have to figure out what lens to get for that down the road.
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Re: Lenses For Pocket Cinema 4K

PostSat Nov 10, 2018 6:12 am

Thanks, Justin, but I did miss seeing that SpeedBooster Ultra for PL-MFT that I had been waiting for. Can’t keep up with everything! I’m on the B&H Photo wait list for that but no idea how I can pay for it. It’ll be around $1,000 Cdn. It will need to wait until 2019.


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Re: Lenses For Pocket Cinema 4K

PostSun Nov 11, 2018 2:54 am

I think I see one.. says .71x, PL to MFT, $719 USD. Is that the one.. or is that not ideal for PL lens? Cant remember all this info!! I think .71 is for APS-C lens and .64 is for full frame?
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Re: Lenses For Pocket Cinema 4K

PostSun Nov 11, 2018 5:13 am

Is anyone using the Canon EF-S 17-55mm f2.8 IS with a Metabones 0.71 adapter and can comment on how this combo works, any vignetting at the wide end and especially if IS works well? Thanks.
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rick.lang

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Re: Lenses For Pocket Cinema 4K

PostSun Nov 11, 2018 3:22 pm

That’s the one, $719 Ultra 0.71x.

The business of saying an Ultra 0.71x focal reducer is intended for APS-C lenses and a XL 0.64x focal reducer is intended for ‘full frame’ is misleading and could easily cause problems. So best to forget that mantra and determine which is best being guided by the image circle of a given lens and the sensor size in question (that determines its crop factor) and with what effective focal lengths you want to work.

When thinking of sensor size, it’s really the physical dimensions of the open gate active area or could also be a window of the sensor. So shooting open gate DCI 4K on the BMPCC4K, with a crop factor 1.9x, might be a problem with some lenses and SpeedBoosters. But the UHD window and its crop factor 2.025x may just make everything perfect.

Regarding image circles, that’s a royal PITA when you’re using photo lenses for Cine purposes. Very few photo lens manufacturers include the physical dimension of the image circle which you need to know. The just say full frame (1.0x crop), APS-C Canon (1.6x sensor crop factor) or APS-C Nikon DX (1.53x sensor crop factor) so as not to overwhelm the unsophisticated consumer with knowledge that really doesn’t matter to them.

But it does matter a lot to Cine shooters that have several different sensors and coverages to contend with especially since the advent of the SpeedBooster. That said even Cine lens manufacturers targeting professional shooters pull a similar stunt when they say their lens has an image circle of 43.3mm. That’s just not true in some cases. They’re using that number just because that’s what is needed to cover a traditional Super 35 film gate. And they now might say full frame or even the larger VistaVision rather than overwhelming the Pro with real numbers.

To illustrate the Rokinon 10mm and 16mm photo lenses are both listed as APS-C lenses. So you might think you can’t use those on the larger URSA Mini 4.6K sensor since that needs a Super 35 lens. The truth is the image circle of the Rokinon 16mm does cover Super 35 and the 10mm does not.

If you want to shoot with the full sensor of the BMPCC4K, the sensor crop factor us 1.9x and all APS-C lenses work of course. But if you add the Ultra 0.71x focal reducer, your net crop factor becomes 1.349x. 1.9x 0.71x = 1.349x which is beyond the Super 35 image circle of the 16mm lens. So you can’t use that lens with the DCI 4K sensor area. You need a full frame lens with the Ultra or the XL on the BMPCC4K.

If you wanted to record raw or ProRes HD in a window, the crop factor of the HD window is a very large 4.05x. 4.05x 0.71x = 2.88x and you can shoot with any APS-C lens or larger with any SpeedBooster.

The slightly larger than traditional MFT sensor on the BMPCC4K presents a challenge for Super 35 lenses whose image circles are close to the limits of Super 35. Notably the Sigma lenses that are said to have an image circle of 28.4mm. We know Sigma is playing it safe and perhaps even slightly understating the diagonal because many people use those lenses on the URSA Mini 4.6K sensor with a diagonal of 29.08mm. The diagonal of the BMPCC4K is 21.44mm and naturally the lens has no issues. But if you apply the Ultra 0.71x SpeedBooster, the Image circle of those Sigma lenses is reduced to 20.164 and it will vignette on the BMPCC4K full sensor. The image circle of the UHD window is 20.4mm and although that’s a bit larger, the Sigma will likely be fine. The diagonal of a traditional MFT sensor shooting with 16:9 aspect ratio is 19.55mm and the Sigma is going to work without any issue.

Usually I just consider horizontal crops because all BMD sensors previously were using the 16:9 aspect ratio. But having to take into account the DCI 4K active sensor area of the BMPCC4K, I should start using the actual sensor diagonals and lens image circles to make accurate apples-to-apples comparisons. The math may be precise but the numbers are always suspect compared to the actual experience of people shooting with the lenses and adapters. The Sigma lenses with 28.4mm image circles illustrate where the numbers are suspect because we know it works on the URSA Mini 4.6K sensor for example.

All these issues disappear if you are using full frame lenses with any SpeedBooster as the coverage of the BMPCC4K is fine. Super 35 lenses may be fine with an Ultra 0.71x SpeedBooster but they may not provide bright corners if their image circle is strictly traditional Super 35 like some Sigma lenses.



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Denny Smith

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Re: Lenses For Pocket Cinema 4K

PostSun Nov 11, 2018 6:04 pm

To be safe, I would only consider using either SB (my favorite for MFT being the 0.71) with Full Frame 135mm lenses. Many DX/APS-C lens image circles are just too close to the traditional S35 sensor (not the UM 4.6) to get a clean image at the edges. Many photo lenses do not fair well at their edges of their image circle, either, and especially the less expensive DX/APS-C crop lenses. Theses lenses, I would just use without a SB. I do not use a SB with my Tokina 11-16, even though from 14-16mm it will work with the 0.71 SB, but to what advantage? At 11mm it covers most of my UWA shots on the MFT format.
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Justin Jackson

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Re: Lenses For Pocket Cinema 4K

PostSun Nov 11, 2018 6:40 pm

So first.. BH has some crazy prices right now on the black friday lenses.. But I have no idea what would be good or not. There is a Zeis 25mm Distagon at $900 off.. $800. Not sure if that is photo or cine.. doesnt say cine so guessing its for photo.

Anyway, so I bought the LensRegain booster because in comparisons it is "comparable" to the MetaBones, but it was only $150, for $700 or so. I figure.. for my current EF lenses (Rokinon 85mm cine, Canon 28mm USM, and kit lenses for my old T2i and a nifty fifty), this speed booster is good enough. Some of the lenses I think are full frame and some APS-C. I still havent learned if APS-C is bigger/smaller than S-35, etc. You guys got the science and math down for lenses to sensor sizes, and crop. I just want a couple lenses that work well. :D

As a hobbyist who hopes to get lucky to shoot some fun project for someone willing to let me do it for free just to get some footage and practice, I am thinking the Sigma 18-35 may do the trick in EF.

The crazy side of me though.. thinks.. get the MFT-PL booster, and buy a couple $4K PL cine lenses.. and then my bank account gives me call and slaps me upside the head with a bit of reality...

Plus I really want (and am hoping) the Mova AIR X gimbal lives up to all the hype (and pricing is on part with LAB 3).. and want to get a few c-stands and 2 Aperture 120d or 300d lights. So thinking.. 1 cine lens, or all that other gear.. all the other gear makes more sense to me to be able to do more than just one good cine lens.
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Justin Jackson

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Re: Lenses For Pocket Cinema 4K

PostSun Nov 11, 2018 10:07 pm

Is the Sigma 18-35 a good buy at $687?? right now on Amazon for this price.. normally $800. Seems like a worth while purchase. With the booster, it should provide good low light wide angle video right?
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rick.lang

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Lenses For Pocket Cinema 4K

PostMon Nov 12, 2018 6:44 am

On the BMPCC4K, the Sigma 18-35mm, with the 0.75x focal reducer you have, may vignette slightly shooting DCI 4K, but it will have bright corners shooting UHD. It will be quite fast, about T1.5, and a good wide angle.


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Re: Lenses For Pocket Cinema 4K

PostMon Nov 12, 2018 6:11 pm

Tristan Pemberton wrote:I recently received my Metabones Speedbooster EF to MFT BMCC (0.64x) to use on my Pocket 4K.

The first lens I tested with it was the Canon 24-105mm f/4. Works great. The IS & Iris work as expected. The autofocus doesn't' work, but that's of no concern as I always manual focus anyway. Maybe a future firmware update may fix it.

It becomes a 15.4-67mm f/2.6 lens - a vey useful range and speed for for the Pocket 4K.


Great to know - thanks. I have the 24-105 and use it often on the Ursa Mini - so good to know I can use it on the Pocket 4k with the Metabones Speedbooster. Haven't ordered the camera yet - but getting all of my ducks in a row. I would prefer to use my existing lenses as opposed to getting new MFT lenses... 8-)
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