3rd party LP-E6 Batteries in Pocket 4K

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MarcusWolschon

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3rd party LP-E6 Batteries in Pocket 4K

PostMon Oct 08, 2018 4:30 pm

I just saw this video

and at t=8m50s he says that 3rd party batteries don't seem to work in the Pocket 4K.
Swit and Canon are reported to work just fine.

Can anyone with a Blackmagic Pocket 4K confirm, deny or clarify this?
Last edited by MarcusWolschon on Thu Oct 11, 2018 7:58 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Denny Smith

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Re: Batteries in Pocket 4K

PostMon Oct 08, 2018 4:35 pm

I gave up with third party batteries with my Micro cameras, and use only original Canon LPE6 batteries, they work much better snd for longer times. The charger works better, and you get a percentage battery readout on the camera.
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MarcusWolschon

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Re: Batteries in Pocket 4K

PostMon Oct 08, 2018 4:43 pm

Well, 70-100€ for a single, small BATTERY (each lasting about 1 hour) is not an option after spending a lot of money on the new camera.
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rick.lang

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Batteries in Pocket 4K

PostMon Oct 08, 2018 5:02 pm

The option I favour is using my Cinegears 270Wh battery in a satchel with appropriate D-tap to 2-pin connector when I’m out and about handheld. When on a tripod I’ll suspend the heavy battery across the mid-level spreader. Sure having $750 worth of batteries to get through a day is an alternative but like Marcus, not going to happen. The supplied BMD battery and a genuine Canon LP-E6N battery will suffice when there’s no other option.

So far many of those testing the camera with the BMD battery report that the camera shuts down without warning when the juice is gone too low to operate the camera. No warning because the BMD battery doesn’t support a percentage display of the remaining capacity. Another reason not to use the cheap batteries.

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Denny Smith

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Re: Batteries in Pocket 4K

PostMon Oct 08, 2018 5:08 pm

I second Rick’s idea of using a normal,camera bstterynwithnthe DTap cable for long shoots.
I get my Canon LP batteries slightly used or as B Stock off eBay, for less thst $40 each.

Another more compact option to the large 15/16 VDC battery, is to get a Sony NP battery plate (Ikan makes one as does IndiePro) and use larger Sony NP style batteries, more choice in getting theses, and they will last several hours per battery. Anton Bauer makes two models of the Sony NP battery for a good price, and two or three of these batteries should cover you for a day’s shooting.
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Last edited by Denny Smith on Thu Oct 18, 2018 12:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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rick.lang

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Batteries in Pocket 4K

PostMon Oct 08, 2018 5:11 pm

Thanks, Denny; I’ll take a look at that option.

Is this what you recommend? I’d need two of them running in serial to power the BMPCC4K. Problem finding anything on Ikan that will hold a pair of these and provide a D-tap connector for BMD’s D-tap to 2-pin cable. If I could find the right holder, my total cost of this exceeds $300 and would be simpler to buy a couple of genuine Canon batteries.

2 Sony NP970 $160
http://ikancorp.com/mobile/productdetail.php?id=45

1 IndiPro dual battery regulated 12VDC $150
—the solution for the BMPCC4K not available yet
https://www.indiproco.com/dual-sony-l-s ... r-systems/

1 IndiPro dual battery regulated 12VDC to Dummy Canon LP-E6 $150–plug’n’play on BMPCC4K
https://www.indiproco.com/dual-sony-l-s ... y-battery/

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AdamTV

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Re: Batteries in Pocket 4K

PostMon Oct 08, 2018 10:05 pm

Canon batteries have a great reputation but I note that the power rating on the BM battery is greater than the Canon battery. On the other hand I have heard bad reports on the BM batteries.

Canon is the safe bet but higher power batteries at the same size would be desirable if they we’re reliable?


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Robert Baker

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Re: Batteries in Pocket 4K

PostMon Oct 08, 2018 10:14 pm

rick.lang wrote:Thanks, Denny; I’ll take a look at that option.

Is this what you recommend?


I think he is referring to something like this:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B077X ... W90K&psc=1

I have a lot of NP-F batteries for my portable lights so I plan on giving this a try.
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rick.lang

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Batteries in Pocket 4K

PostMon Oct 08, 2018 10:49 pm

Robert, I am thinking that won’t work as it only has one Sony NP970 battery which would make it about 7.4VDC. The last item in my post uses dual batteries to produce regulated 12VDC. What do you think? Or is the genuine Canon LP-E6 only 7.4VDC?

Edit
I see the LP-E6 is only 7.2VDC so obviously only one battery is needed. Originally I was thinking two batteries and feeding power in through the 2-pin connector. Then I saw the dummy option but wasn’t thinking clearly! Too much Canadian turkey?

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Chris Chiasson

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Re: Batteries in Pocket 4K

PostMon Oct 08, 2018 11:30 pm

In my experience, the ones that Blackmagic sells lasted the longest. The third party ones always lasted a half hour or 45 minutes, while the original battery lasted me an hour an a half. It’s why I ordered two of them, and use them with my Video Assist, for 3 hours of use.
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Re: Batteries in Pocket 4K

PostMon Oct 08, 2018 11:48 pm

Don’t forget this newer, cheaper Sony NP-L alternative:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/bl ... ect_update
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Re: Batteries in Pocket 4K

PostMon Oct 08, 2018 11:52 pm

Canon - 1865mah
BM - 2000mah

- so the BM battery will last longer in use. But battery quality determines how the perform over time and Canon has an excellent reputation in this regard.


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Leon Benzakein

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Re: Batteries in Pocket 4K

PostTue Oct 09, 2018 12:52 am

Rick

On the other hand Denny may be suggesting this adapter that takes the 7.2/4 volts Sony batteries and converts to the 12 volts that can be plugged via the 2 pin power plug.

https://www.smallrig.com/smallrig-dv-ba ... -1765.html

SmallRig DV Battery Plate Adapter for BMPCC/BMCC/BMPC 1765 is a battery adapter which fits securely on the back of F970/F750/F550 battery on the rear of the panel. It gives users the ability to convert voltage to 12v easily and could attach camera battery normally used with BMPCC/BMCC 2.5K/BMPC 4K. It helps to support 12V DC power input and extend battery life. This device offers red led indication to show power on. There is a 1/4’’ threaded hole at the bottom for rig attaching, and a velcro for tripod connection.
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Re: Batteries in Pocket 4K

PostTue Oct 09, 2018 12:59 am

Both would work, and are in the range of what I was referring to. If you are going to add a top mounted monitor, than the Small HD Focus would also work, as it uses a Sony NP battery by Anton Bauer, which makes a great little NP battery in two sizes.
Cheers
Last edited by Denny Smith on Thu Oct 18, 2018 12:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Batteries in Pocket 4K

PostTue Oct 09, 2018 1:35 am

Denny Smith wrote:Sony NO battery by Anton Bauer, which makes a great little NP battery in two sizes.


Denny, do you recommend the Anton Bauer Sony NO batteries?

I see that B&H has specials on them every now and then.

e.g.
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/ ... tml?sts=pi
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Re: Batteries in Pocket 4K

PostTue Oct 09, 2018 4:15 am

Yes, I have one of the 6600 batteries, works great.
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rick.lang

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Re: Batteries in Pocket 4K

PostTue Oct 09, 2018 4:45 am

Thanks, Leon. Comes with cables for previous Pocket but not the Pocket4K. So still would need the special cable with the 2-pin connector. One of the options I posted even has a 4-pin XLR so it could be used on the URSA Mini.

I’m beginning to think there will be various solutions in the next month or so that specifically support the BMPCC4K either through a dummy Canon LP-E6 connector (easy standard) which will require one NP-F970 battery or through the 2-pin connector (careful you get the right version of that 2-pin) that will require 2 NP-F970 batteries in series.

The single battery solution is likely more secure and less weight and will probably power the camera for three hours. The dual battery will power the camera for five or six hours without having to think about the battery power.

Until BMPCC4K specific solutions appear, I can just go with my first option of hanging the Cinegears 270Wh with D-tap to the camera 2-pin and not think about power all day.


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Re: Batteries in Pocket 4K

PostTue Oct 09, 2018 5:07 am

So this discussion is completely derailed and nobody with the few Pocket 4K already out there can provide any insight or real world experience into the statement made in the video,
that for some reason it is claimed to not even power on with 3rd party LP-E6 batteries.
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Re: Batteries in Pocket 4K

PostTue Oct 09, 2018 5:57 am

Most people I know only recommends Canon batteries only. Others have a spotty life time. That said the Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K battery is new I believe and as stated above have a higher power rating. But these are untested in terms of life expectancy unless BM has done their own study - so but at your own risk.


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Wayne Steven

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Re: Batteries in Pocket 4K

PostTue Oct 09, 2018 7:59 am

Any mountable 6-10 hour battery solutions? Something that mounts under and into the present battery compartment or on a cage?

Thanks.
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Re: Batteries in Pocket 4K

PostTue Oct 09, 2018 9:35 am

Wasn't there a battery with a tripod mount that goes under the Pocket? At least for the Pocket 1..?
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Re: Batteries in Pocket 4K

PostTue Oct 09, 2018 11:08 am

Yes Tim, that sort of thing.
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Re: Batteries in Pocket 4K

PostTue Oct 09, 2018 11:12 am

Would that not prevent the use of a cage?

If it were not for that you could make something like the grip on the canon 5D that would hold 2 batteries https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/ ... p_for.html


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Re: Batteries in Pocket 4K

PostTue Oct 09, 2018 11:51 am

As a current owner of PCC4K I can say that the BMD battery is not my favorite with this camera. At least mine does shut off quite early - while camera shows the bar having around a third of the charge left.
In comparison the genuine Canon LPE6N battery lasts longer and shows exact percentages.
But I have yet to test how much longer they last.

On Amazon.de I get the Canon LPE6N for around 60 EUR + VAT, on Amazon.fr for around 57 EUR + VAT

The Hedbox battery is very likely to work too - but I haven't tried yet:
https://www.videodata.de/shop/products/ ... -LPE6.html

For 28 + VAT the price is ok.

EDIT:
I have ordered two of the Hedbox for the team ;-) from my dealer for testing purposes. Will report as soon as I get a chance to test those.
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Re: Batteries in Pocket 4K

PostTue Oct 09, 2018 12:05 pm

Adam, you would have to work without, work around, or get a cage that fits it. I would consider bolting a battery pack to a cage in a way that worked in with handeling it.
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Re: Batteries in Pocket 4K

PostTue Oct 09, 2018 12:39 pm

Eigenschaften:
- 7,4 V / 2 Ah / 14,8 Wh

- that’s even less than the Canon - see above.

The only reason I would consider the BM is the slightly larger power - but I would need to be convinced they are as durable over time as the Canon.

These are a small fraction of total cost and the last thing you want is a battery issue during production.


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Re: Batteries in Pocket 4K

PostTue Oct 09, 2018 12:57 pm

AdamTV wrote:Eigenschaften:
- 7,4 V / 2 Ah / 14,8 Wh

- that’s even less than the Canon - see above.


Why is that even less than the Canon?
Canon LPE6N: 7.2 V * 1.865 Ah = 13,8 Wh
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Re: Batteries in Pocket 4K

PostTue Oct 09, 2018 1:03 pm

Robert Niessner wrote:
EDIT:
I have ordered two of the Hedbox for the team ;-) from my dealer for testing purposes. Will report as soon as I get a chance to test those.



Thanks a lot!
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Re: Batteries in Pocket 4K

PostTue Oct 09, 2018 1:07 pm

You are correct - I should have said less than the BM battery but the same as the Canon. What makes the BM battery interesting is the slightly higher power. Other than that I would stick to Canon - based on recommendations. People tend to not trust 3rd party based on bad experiences.


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Re: Batteries in Pocket 4K

PostTue Oct 09, 2018 1:19 pm

Tim Lota wrote:Wasn't there a battery with a tripod mount that goes under the Pocket?


having problems posting this video


http://www.coreswx.com/how-to-power-any ... mcc-bmpcc/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... -36LQgrM7k

@0:25 tripod to battery to camera

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/ ... _form.html
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Re: Batteries in Pocket 4K

PostTue Oct 09, 2018 1:43 pm

AdamTV wrote:You are correct - I should have said less than the BM battery but the same as the Canon. What makes the BM battery interesting is the slightly higher power. Other than that I would stick to Canon - based on recommendations. People tend to not trust 3rd party based on bad experiences.


As I am one of the few early owners of the PCC4k I repeat what I have written above:

I can say that the BMD battery is not my favorite with this camera. At least mine does shut off quite early - while camera shows the bar having around a third of the charge left.
In comparison the genuine Canon LPE6N battery lasts longer and shows exact percentages.
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Re: Batteries in Pocket 4K

PostTue Oct 09, 2018 4:56 pm

The Atomos Power Station uses two NP batteries in parallel, so you can hot swap one battery at a time, and connects to the camera with a Dummy battery. Th eunit csn be attached to the bottom of the camer and still allow tripod connection. No 12VDC output though, 7.4VDC only.
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Re: Batteries in Pocket 4K

PostTue Oct 09, 2018 6:00 pm

Denny Smith wrote:The Atomos Poer Bank uses two NP batteries in parallel p




a) It's called "Atomos Power Station".
b) It's surprisingly inefficient. Especially considering it's rather "premium" price tag.
c) It can not be switched off. Thus whenever there are batteries in there, it starts to drain them.
d) It's very bulky.
(I have 2 of them)
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Robert Niessner

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Re: Batteries in Pocket 4K

PostTue Oct 09, 2018 7:36 pm

Markus, have a look at this kickstarter project:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/bl ... blind-spot

I've backed 3 of those and I think that will be a good addition to the PCC4k.
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Re: Batteries in Pocket 4K

PostTue Oct 09, 2018 8:04 pm

Robert Niessner wrote:Markus, have a look at this kickstarter project:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/bl ... blind-spot

I've backed 3 of those and I think that will be a good addition to the PCC4k.


Very nice.
Thanks for the link.
I'm tempted.
However I won't back it.
* No output between 12 and 20V for the BMPCC4K externally. So it can only replace the internal battery.
* no on/off switch
* Handheld or on a mobile tripod a single battery inside the camera is fine.
* On the shoulder rig multiple devices want to be powered, so a V-mount plate with serveral outputs and a dual NP-F to V-mount adapter is find and provides a nice counterweight.
* On the stationary tripod it replaces the internal battery of the camera yet does not have a second battery-slot to hot-swap for long events.

With a 12V output and 2 NP-F mounts on eiter side and/or a small internall battery to hot-swap
and an off-switch, it would be very interesting.

(and of cause it strays from the topic. "Batteries for the Pocket 4K" and if the statement that the camery body does not even turn on with (some?) 3rd party batteries is true. Not alternative power solutions for the Pocket 4K.)
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Re: Batteries in Pocket 4K

PostWed Oct 10, 2018 12:03 am

rick.lang wrote:Edit
I see the LP-E6 is only 7.2VDC so obviously only one battery is needed. Originally I was thinking two batteries and feeding power in through the 2-pin connector. Then I saw the dummy option but wasn’t thinking clearly! Too much Canadian turkey?


I hope the Turkey was good!
I had the dual battery option from IndioPro for my GH4 and it worked really well. Might also be an option here if not for the much higher price.
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Re: Batteries in Pocket 4K

PostWed Oct 10, 2018 12:27 am

Yes, I prefer the dual battery in serial approach as I’ve never had to shoot longer than that setup will allow. I don’t want to be thinking about batteries when I’m preoccupied with shooting. And if I do run out of power once in awhile, then the camera can use the Canon LP-E6N to get it done. YMMV.


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Re: Batteries in Pocket 4K

PostWed Oct 10, 2018 7:12 am

Finally found it! I was talking about this one:

http://juicebox.direct/product/jbmp-02/


Has anyone here experience with this battery?
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Re: Batteries in Pocket 4K

PostWed Oct 10, 2018 8:56 am

Tim Lota wrote:Finally found it! I was talking about this one:

http://juicebox.direct/product/jbmp-02/


Has anyone here experience with this battery?



58Wh for >$100? Just because it has a 1/4-20 UNC thread?
(a 12V output is a common thing in larger power banks)
For comparison: Anker PowerCore 20100 has 75Wh for <$45 and a perfect reputation.
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Re: Batteries in Pocket 4K

PostWed Oct 10, 2018 11:55 am

So that would be an option for the Pocket4K, too?
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Re: Batteries in Pocket 4K

PostWed Oct 10, 2018 11:58 am

Tim Lota wrote:So that would be an option for the Pocket4K, too?


If you build a mount for it. Sure.
This is however still off topic for this thread.
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Re: Batteries in Pocket 4K

PostWed Oct 10, 2018 12:01 pm

Ok, thanks. I was wondering, since the Anker doesn't have a 12V output..

I'm half way between an external solution, or just buying a lot of cheap LP-E6 alternatives. Has anyone tried the Axxon ones?
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Re: Batteries in Pocket 4K

PostWed Oct 10, 2018 12:10 pm

Tim Lota wrote:Ok, thanks. I was wondering, since the Anker doesn't have a 12V output..

I'm half way between an external solution, or just buying a lot of cheap LP-E6 alternatives. Has anyone tried the Axxon ones?


Since the one question of this entire thread is "has anyone tried any of them"
and we have no answer yet,
the answer to your question is obviously:
"no. nobody HERE has tried these specific ones yet.".
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Re: Batteries in Pocket 4K

PostWed Oct 10, 2018 4:12 pm

I just ran a continuous C4K shot on raw 3:1 to a Samsung T5 drive using the included Blackmagic LP-6 battery (7.4v 2000mAh 14.8Wh).

The camera shut off at 43:45, though the battery bar showed plenty remaining. No phantom power, one of the onboard mics recording. Brought the DNG sequence into Resolve, all's well.

Hot battery when ejected!

No dropped frames.

Now testing a big AB-mount battery.
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3rd party LP-E6 Batteries in Pocket 4K

PostWed Oct 10, 2018 7:46 pm

WmsRan, it would seem the Pocket4K was consuming 20W. Good to know. My old V-mount battery is 250Wh, so I might be able to run for 12 hours! Just a standard fresh 98Wh battery will run nearly 5 hours and that’s all I ever shoot in a day.
Last edited by rick.lang on Sat Oct 13, 2018 1:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Batteries in Pocket 4K

PostThu Oct 11, 2018 12:10 am

Hot battery. Do any of the battery packs out there have sub batteries with the ability to auto swap between them when the battery is overheating?
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Re: Batteries in Pocket 4K

PostThu Oct 11, 2018 12:46 am

A hot battery is troubling when we are talking Lithium batteries. How hot are we talking? That can kill the lifetime of the battery as well as the potential danger.


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Art Roberts

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Re: Batteries in Pocket 4K

PostThu Oct 11, 2018 2:16 am

I think we have failed to define how the camera will be used in relation to the kind of battery needed. Because IMHO, each style will require a particular type of battery.

If you are tripod mounted, there won't be a need to worry about any other alternative than a brick. Some can take you from dawn to dusk. Usually good for well composed and continuous shots.

Handhelds will probably require the NPF adapters and such.

Being on a gimble, which I believe most people will be using their cameras, will certainly require the trusty old LPE6. Because of weight issues mostly associated with handheld gimble use, you want to go as light weight as possible. You also may be doing short takes and as such frequent battery change. My two cents.
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WmsRan

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Re: Batteries in Pocket 4K

PostThu Oct 11, 2018 2:37 am

Hot enough that I was surprised. I've not shot with LP-6 batteries before, but this was past "warm" I would say, and I set it down pretty quick. I have noticed that the QR baseplate and the the screwmount on top get pretty hot during extended recording. I wonder if the battery was not heated up by the camera, rather than the draw, though I am frankly ignorant of how such things work.

New test: recorded ProRes HD LT with one internal and one external mic (no phantom), screen brightness at 31%, off an Ikan 98wH (14.8v 6800mAh 12 A) AB-mount battery through d-tap again to the Samsung T5 over USB-C.

Recording time? Well over 6 hours, closer to 6 1/2. Not sure on the precise time b/c the last file, which I think was about 30 minutes, I just accidentally deleted before logging the runtime. The first three were 6 hours even.

And the external battery in this test was as cool as it was at the start.
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rick.lang

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Batteries in Pocket 4K

PostThu Oct 11, 2018 2:44 am

Wayne, I’ve seen dual battery packs but none that monitor temperature. But just because the dual packs are external with exposed batteries, I think heat would dissipate.

I’ll stay with my all day brick approach with short takes when I’m mobile so I suspect the Canon LP-E6N battery will need occasional checking when able.

I also feel safe with that dual NP-F970 approach I posted earlier using the dummy battery connector as there’s little chance of that overheating compared to an internal battery.

By the way, regarding the PowerEdge option: unless I’m wrong, that battery by itself, with all its attractive features, is not the best option for me as it’s less than 50Wh. So at most you can expect about 2 ¼ hours or so. Less depending what you are adding to its draw. Having two batteries would work.

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