Pocket 4K Question - Confused by Off-Speed

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Kays Alatrakchi

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Pocket 4K Question - Confused by Off-Speed

PostSat Oct 20, 2018 4:33 pm

Hello all,

I'm getting ready to shoot a music video on the Pocket 4K, and I'd like to shoot the whole thing at 60fps.

I'm a bit confused by the settings in the camera menu, particularly the Project Frame Rate vs the Off-Speed frame rate. I read the manual and watched videos about it and yet I'm still confused.

Basically, if I want to make sure that the camera is actually recording at 60fps, and in Resolve I want the footage to playback as a slow motion file at 24fps, what settings do I actually need to put in the Pocket 4K menu?
>>Kays Alatrakchi
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John Paines

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Re: Pocket 4K Question - Confused by Off-Speed

PostSat Oct 20, 2018 4:40 pm

If your Resolve project is going to be 24fps and you want the 60fps material to play back in slow motion in that project, then set the camera to a project rate of 24fps and an offspeed rate of 60fps.

Then, if you want to shoot in 60fps instead of 24, hit the "HFR" button, and you should see the mode you're in on the upper left of the screen -- "60/24fps".

If you want to shoot straight 24fps, then hit the button again and you'll see "24fps".
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Kays Alatrakchi

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Re: Pocket 4K Question - Confused by Off-Speed

PostSat Oct 20, 2018 6:22 pm

Ok, so if I understand this correctly, the Project Frame Rate is just so that I don't need to change the Clip Attributes in Resolve right? So the Off-Speed setting is what is actually telling the camera how many frames to capture in 1 second, right?

I gotta say that this is still quite confusing and unnecessary IMHO. I think I will set the camera for 60fps Project and 60fps Off-Speed just to be on the safe side.
>>Kays Alatrakchi
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Re: Pocket 4K Question - Confused by Off-Speed

PostSat Oct 20, 2018 6:45 pm

The point of this feature is the convenience of toggling between normal 24fps speed and 60fps slow motion, by hitting one button.

But nothing's stopping you from setting the camera's project frame rate to 60fps, and changing the setting to 24 in clip attributes.
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Re: Pocket 4K Question - Confused by Off-Speed

PostSat Oct 20, 2018 8:01 pm

Kays, for the segments that are intended to play at 24fps, do you need audio from the original capture? If you are capturing audio in camera, then you should record with the project settings at 24 fps. The audio always records in camera at the project frame rate I believe.

If you capture audio with an external recorder, it will be fine.


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Kays Alatrakchi

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Re: Pocket 4K Question - Confused by Off-Speed

PostSun Oct 21, 2018 3:40 am

I'm recording MOS on this project, so I'm not too concerned about audio from the camera.
>>Kays Alatrakchi
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Re: Pocket 4K Question - Confused by Off-Speed

PostSun Oct 21, 2018 8:57 am

Kay, FYI recording off-speed in camera will always de-sync audio from video. Just keep that in mind for those projects where you need the audio.

I'm not sure why you find the concept confusing.

If you want to shoot a project to a certain frame rate without slow or fast motion, then just choose the frame rate like for example 60 fps, or 24 fps. You could always change the 60fps interpretation later in post to let's say 24fps for slow motion.

If you want to shoot fast motion, for example 15 fps into a 24 fps project, then set off-speed to ON and you will get the 15 fps speedup to 24fps.

If you want to shoot slow motion, for example 60fps into a 24 fps project, then set off-speed to ON and you will get the 60 fps slowed down to 24fps.
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Tristan Pemberton

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Re: Pocket 4K Question - Confused by Off-Speed

PostSun Oct 21, 2018 9:52 am

I think it helps if you can understand where it all came from - film.

When shooting on film, for motion, there was a certain length of film used per second depending on the frame rate. The higher the frame rate, the more film used (and the faster it would pass through the camera). The lower the frame rate, the less film used (and the slower it would pass).

In other words, a film shot at 25fps would use more film than one shot at 24fps - one more frame per second.

So when changing the "delivery" speed - the speed at which the action will appear to the audience, sped up or slowed down - the camera would need to be "over-cranked", or "under-cranked". This terminology comes from a time when motion film cameras were manually cranked - a handle on the side which, when turned, would move film through the camera exposing it. If the crank was turned faster, more frames would be exposed every second. If it was turned slower, fewer frames would be exposed per second.

However, regardless of how much length of film ("foot"age) was exposed every second, when the film was projected to an audience the speed (and length per second) would be constant. Usually 24 fps.

So if a shot has been over-cranked, then the film passes faster during exposure that when projected. So would be slowed down for the audience. If under-cranked, the opposite occurs. This change in speed would be added to the slate (the clapped board) so the editor would need to know how to treat the footage.

What BMD has done is imbedded this information into the clip's metadata. For example, with a 60/25fps clip, when an edit program (like Resolve) imports the file onto a 25fps timeline, it understands that even if a clip has been exposed at 60fps, it's to play back the clip at 25fps "without dropping frames." In other words, slow it down.

So there's a difference between exposing a clip at 60fps for a 60fps timeline, and exposing a clip at 60fps for a 25fps timeline.
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Kays Alatrakchi

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Re: Pocket 4K Question - Confused by Off-Speed

PostSun Oct 21, 2018 5:18 pm

Robert Niessner wrote:I'm not sure why you find the concept confusing.


What I find confusing is that there are two settings that both seem to indicate the same thing, and if I want to make absolutely sure that the camera is recording at 60fps, I just want one simple setting like most other cameras out there.

Maybe it's a nomenclature issue.

But for instance, if my Project setting is 24fps, and my Off-Speed is engaged at 60fps, what effective fps is my camera actually recording at?

Now let's reverse that, Project settings at 60fps, Off-Speed at 24, what is the camera recording at?

Ok, last example, Project setting at 60fps, Off-Speed turned off?

See how it can be confusing? Also, is Project referring to my Resolve Project, or a "camera project"? What is this Project exactly?

I'm sorry, but if you're on set, on a mission critical shoot, and time is short, this can be rather confusing as opposed to what a RED menu or hell, even a GH5 menu shows you. (And the manual isn't any help either).
>>Kays Alatrakchi
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Re: Pocket 4K Question - Confused by Off-Speed

PostSun Oct 21, 2018 5:41 pm

Kay, it is simple, the camera “films” at the frame rate you select, regardless of the project speed. Somin your first examp,e the frame rate is 60fps. In yiur second example, the frame rate is 24fps,
And the third, frame rate is 60fps.

The ”Project” rate controls how the camera or post production timeline plays back the recorded footage.
So if you shoot 60fps at a 24fps project rate, your 60fps receding will automatically playback at 24fps, giving a slow motion effect. Turn the Off Speed off, and then project and camera frame rate will match, as in your theirs example, and the footage will playback at 60fps, giving a normal mention look.

You can always record at 60fps (good for fast moving subjects) will a 60fps project rate (off speed turned off) and later if you want part of the shot to be slow motion, yiu can change the timeline in your editor to 30 or 24fps formthat segment at get slow motion as Robert pointed out.
Cheers
Last edited by Denny Smith on Sun Oct 21, 2018 8:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Mark Grgurev

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Re: Pocket 4K Question - Confused by Off-Speed

PostSun Oct 21, 2018 6:52 pm

Think of project frame rate as the playback frame rate while the sensor frame rates are the recording speed.
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Re: Pocket 4K Question - Confused by Off-Speed

PostSun Oct 21, 2018 9:57 pm

Kays Alatrakchi wrote:
Robert Niessner wrote:I'm not sure why you find the concept confusing.

Also, is Project referring to my Resolve Project, or a "camera project"? What is this Project exactly?

It's just metadata.

First you need to know what your delivery frame rate is - that is the project frame rate. It's the frame rate your editor will have on the timeline, regardless of the NLE.

The off-speed frame rate is anything above (over cranked) or below (under-cranked) the project frame rate. Then the metadata is carried over to the NLE to tell it to play at the project/timeline frame rate and not the captured frame rate.

So the difference between a one second clip captured at 50fps, and another at 25/50fps off speed, is metadata. Both clips contain 50 frames.

The first clip will play for one second at 50fps - (1 x 50 = 50).
The second will play for two seconds at 25fps - (2 x 25 = 50).
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Robert Niessner

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Re: Pocket 4K Question - Confused by Off-Speed

PostSun Oct 21, 2018 10:05 pm

Kays Alatrakchi wrote:
Robert Niessner wrote:I'm not sure why you find the concept confusing.


What I find confusing is that there are two settings that both seem to indicate the same thing, and if I want to make absolutely sure that the camera is recording at 60fps, I just want one simple setting like most other cameras out there.

Maybe it's a nomenclature issue.

But for instance, if my Project setting is 24fps, and my Off-Speed is engaged at 60fps, what effective fps is my camera actually recording at?

Now let's reverse that, Project settings at 60fps, Off-Speed at 24, what is the camera recording at?

Ok, last example, Project setting at 60fps, Off-Speed turned off?

See how it can be confusing? Also, is Project referring to my Resolve Project, or a "camera project"? What is this Project exactly?

I'm sorry, but if you're on set, on a mission critical shoot, and time is short, this can be rather confusing as opposed to what a RED menu or hell, even a GH5 menu shows you. (And the manual isn't any help either).


Sorry, but are you trolling me? Three people have explained this to you now, even with exact the same examples you are asking again an answer for - didn't you care to read?
I am not a native speaker, but the concept is so easy to grasp and so easy to execute even in stressful shooting environments, even the young group of teens working the first time with that camera in a film workshop I held had no problems to grasp that concept.

Why don't you take 5 minutes of your time and just try it out, learn to know your camera?
I mean, before I take a new camera to a mission critical shoot, I test drive it for some weeks until I know it inside out...
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Re: Pocket 4K Question - Confused by Off-Speed

PostSun Oct 21, 2018 10:15 pm

BTW an excerpt from the "not helpful" manual (p. 67/68 URSA Mini & p.29/30 PCC4K):

Project frame rate
The project frame rate is URSA Mini's recording format frame rate and provides a selection of common frame rates used in the film and television industry. This frame rate is normally set to match your playback speed used in your post production workflow.

Your Blackmagic URSA Mini has 8 project frame rate settings including 23.98, 24, 25, 29.97, 30, 50, 59.94 and 60 frames per second.

To adjust your URSA Mini's project frame rate while in the ‘FPS' menu, tap the left or right arrows next to the current frame rate at the bottom left of your touchscreen. Alternatively, you can drag the slider left or right.

Sensor frame rate
The sensor frame rate sets how many actual frames from the sensor are recorded every second. This frame rate will affect how fast or slow your video will play back at your set project frame rate.

By default, your URSA Mini's project and sensor frame rates are matched for a natural playback speed. However, by tapping the ‘off speed frame rate' switch icon in the bottom right hand side of your URSA Mini's ‘FPS' menu, you can independently set your sensor frame rate.

To change your sensor frame rate, tap the arrows next to the sensor frame rate indicator in the lower left of your touchscreen. You can also drag the slider left or right to increase or decrease the frame rate. Once you release the slider, the sensor frame rate will be selected.

You can create dynamic and interesting speed effects in your clips by varying the sensor frame rate. Setting the sensor frame rate higher than your project frame rate will create slow motion during playback. Alternatively, the lower your sensor frame rate, the faster your clips will appear. The principle is similar to overcranking and undercranking a film camera. Overcranking speeds up the sensor frame rate so you can stretch out moments in time during playback to enhance emotion. Undercranking slows down the sensor frame rate so you can increase the action in fast moving scenes. The creative possibilities are endless and entirely up to you!

NOTE When 'off speed frame rate' is selected your URSA Mini's audio and video are no longer synced. This is true even if you set the same project and sensor frame rate. For this reason, 'off speed frame rate' should never be selected if you want to guarantee audio syncing.
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Re: Pocket 4K Question - Confused by Off-Speed

PostMon Oct 22, 2018 12:17 am

Might be easiest visually just to watch this:

http://www.focuspulling.com/bmpcc4kguide/#5
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Re: Pocket 4K Question - Confused by Off-Speed

PostMon Oct 22, 2018 2:49 am

Robert Niessner wrote:Sorry, but are you trolling me?


Robert…nobody is trolling anyone. If you're not patient enough to explain things as long as it takes for me to understand them, just unfollow the thread, there is no need to get frustrated — what can I say? I'm a slow learner.


Now…getting back to the thread:

I just want to be clear since I don't own the camera yet so I can't quite experiment, but I will be shooting a music video with one in 2 days.

So the way I understand it is is the Off-Speed setting is off, then the camera will shoot at whatever the Project Frame rate is (24, 30, 60, etc.) and for all intents and purposes, the Off-Speed setting automatically matches the Project rate. However, if the Off-Speed is engaged, then the Off-Speed setting will override the Project Frame rate (so a Project setting at 24, but an Off-Speed setting of 60 will still result in the camera capturing footage at 60 frames each second).

When the Off-Speed is engaged, that becomes the master setting for how many frames the sensor is recording, while the Project Setting simply becomes the Metadata that's paired with the footage to instruct Resolve (or other NLEs) how to interpret the incoming footage.

I think that's right? :?
>>Kays Alatrakchi
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Re: Pocket 4K Question - Confused by Off-Speed

PostMon Oct 22, 2018 2:51 am

focuspulling wrote:Might be easiest visually just to watch this:

http://www.focuspulling.com/bmpcc4kguide/#5


I did, thank you. Maybe my brain just works different than y'all's…but it really didn't make things any clearer!
>>Kays Alatrakchi
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Resolve 18.1.4, Mac OS X 12.6.3 (Monterey), iMac Pro 64Gb RAM, Decklink Mini 4K, LG C9

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Re: Pocket 4K Question - Confused by Off-Speed

PostMon Oct 22, 2018 4:00 am

You’ve got it now!


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Robert Niessner

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Re: Pocket 4K Question - Confused by Off-Speed

PostMon Oct 22, 2018 5:35 am

Kays Alatrakchi wrote:
Robert Niessner wrote:Sorry, but are you trolling me?


Robert…nobody is trolling anyone. If you're not patient enough to explain things as long as it takes for me to understand them, just unfollow the thread, there is no need to get frustrated — what can I say? I'm a slow learner.


Kays, you didn't mention that you won't have the camera before shooting, so I was assuming you'd be one of those lazy guys on the internet wanting to get everything handed over...

So please take my apologies.
Saying "Thx for help!" is not a crime.
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Kays Alatrakchi

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Re: Pocket 4K Question - Confused by Off-Speed

PostMon Oct 22, 2018 5:41 am

Thank you all, I feel much more confident going into my shoot on Wednesday.
>>Kays Alatrakchi
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Resolve 18.1.4, Mac OS X 12.6.3 (Monterey), iMac Pro 64Gb RAM, Decklink Mini 4K, LG C9

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Re: Pocket 4K Question - Confused by Off-Speed

PostFri Oct 26, 2018 4:33 pm

If anyone is interested, we ended up shooting on the Pocket 4K for my video the other night. Everything went pretty smoothly and I ended up just using the Project FPS and leaving the Off-Speed setting completely off. We did a combination of shots at 24 and 60 in 4K DCI and when I brought it all into Resolve, all I had to do is make sure that the footage shot at 60 was being interpreted by Resolve at 24fps so that it would be played back as a slow motion clip.

I'm happy with the experience of shooting with the Pocket 4K and it was a sad feeling to have to return it the next day, but I look forward to getting a phone call from Hot Rod Cameras soon once my pre-order arrives.
>>Kays Alatrakchi
Filmmaker based in Los Angeles, CA
http://moviesbykays.com

Resolve 18.1.4, Mac OS X 12.6.3 (Monterey), iMac Pro 64Gb RAM, Decklink Mini 4K, LG C9

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Re: Pocket 4K Question - Confused by Off-Speed

PostSat Oct 27, 2018 8:07 pm

Excellent Kays. With the project set at 60 fps, you’d also have real-time audio for the 60 fps clips that you could use if you wanted to have some of the 60 fps material redefined to 24 fps.


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Re: Pocket 4K Question - Confused by Off-Speed

PostSat Oct 27, 2018 9:46 pm

Good point.

I am itching to get my hands on the camera full time so that I can experiment more with it, but overall the experience of working with the Pocket 4K was extremely positive. I think this camera is a game changer.
>>Kays Alatrakchi
Filmmaker based in Los Angeles, CA
http://moviesbykays.com

Resolve 18.1.4, Mac OS X 12.6.3 (Monterey), iMac Pro 64Gb RAM, Decklink Mini 4K, LG C9

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Re: Pocket 4K Question - Confused by Off-Speed

PostSat Oct 27, 2018 11:34 pm

Ray (that's what it is) wrote:I discovered a funny thing today while testing things out. If I have Off Speed turned on in the record panel, the camera will record at 60fps regardless (it shows 60/24 on the screen). If I have it turned off, I can toggle between 24fps and 60fps using the HFR button.



That's the feature of the HFR button - the ability to quickly toggle between full and slow motion. You set the off speed as you want it in the menu and leave it off and the HFR button allows you to grab a slomo take without going into the menu.
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Re: Pocket 4K Question - Confused by Off-Speed

PostSun Oct 28, 2018 10:03 am

Ray (that's what it is) wrote:
Jim Giberti wrote:That's the feature of the HFR button - the ability to quickly toggle between full and slow motion. You set the off speed as you want it in the menu and leave it off and the HFR button allows you to grab a slomo take without going into the menu.


That's what I understood it to be, but I found that if the Off Speed setting in the menu was tuned on, it would immediately default to the higher frame rate (it actually reflected this in the amount of time remaining display). It works better by turning the Off Speed setting to 'off' and just toggling the HFR button.

Toggling the HFR button IS turning "Off Speed" recording on and off. Another way of describing the HFR button is that it's the on/off button for Off Speed recording.
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