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Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2019 9:42 am
by Kim Janson
I am repeating my self, but from the inexpensive EFV point of view HDMI is everything than a standard.

It can output many different resolutions and frame rates, even interlased/progressive. That makes making the inexpensive EFV using HDMI interface difficult. I guess it is possible, but needs big resources and true demand to make such product.

Also the HDMI does not provide power. That is much bigger problem to make an inexpensive product that I hear people thinking in here.

Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2019 10:11 am
by Kim Janson
That is the exact thing. You can not just add HDMI connector. You need processor and SW to do it.

Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2019 1:59 pm
by Kim Janson
What I said is

1. Inexpensive EFV using HDMI interface, I guess it is possible, but needs big resources and true demand to make such product.

2. You can not just connect HDMI connector to some existing EVF that does not have HDMI. Processor and SW for interfasing and video scaling is needed.

Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 2:51 am
by Kim Janson
It is not about being wrong or right and I am happily wrong if some indie company with low or no resourses makes sucsesful bussines with such low cost EFV or if you sucseed to find low cost EVF to witch HDMI can be just wired DIY.

And only happy if some bigger company makes such product. That said personally I do not care of EVF that is very small and difficult to see in. I hope the efforsts are put to provide lower cost proper EVF. The size of normal reasonably small lens is just fine.

I do think HDMI is ancient interface that should already go away I hope USB C will replace it in few years.

Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 3:15 am
by Denny Smith
Ray, you need to try a real cine full size EVF like the BMD one, and then you will understand what Kim and I are taking about. Yes I can use my Nikon Z6 EVF but for video shooting it is hard to use, hard to see the entire shot, and as you mentioned is in the wrong place to use easily. I end up using the LCD screen on thr bsckmof my mirrorless cameras, including the Oly PenF. The Nikon Z6 EVF is bigger snd better than the Oly, but neither are something I would want to try and use to shoot a video scene.
Cheers

Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 3:18 am
by Kim Janson
I have Canon Eos R. It has pretty good EVF, but too small look in area for my taste.

Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 5:00 am
by Denny Smith
Ray, I didn’t say it was wrong to have a small EVF, but it was a option I did not want.
And using a small EVF like the one in a mirrorless Camera even for 5 minutes does not work of me.
Glad it can work for you, but it is not what others like me and Kim want.
Cheers

Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 5:29 am
by Denny Smith
Yes, that is about the same size as the new Zacuto and not much smaller than my Wooden Camera mod of the BMD EVF. They are keeping the size down by having the video processor and lower boards in the camera, so fewer components in the actual EVF.
Cheers

Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 6:11 am
by Kim Janson
Originally that was as there was huge demand for that. Now I do not think GoPro is doing that well. Anyway, to get to that it took years and many models, huge development budget and miljons of sold cameras.

I have some of the first models, and at the time they where the best. Today I would not use them.

Technically the EVF you are asking, I am sure is possible, and even inexpensive one, if there is huge demand for that, like there was for action cameras.

BTW, just think of 100 euro smart phone, It is far more complex than EVF exept for optical part. The optical part is no more complex than 100 euro lens... it is just question of demand.

The KineEVF Pro looks perfect size.

Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 8:55 am
by Kim Janson
Just something to think about, when wishing low cost gear :D

Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 9:43 am
by Kim Janson
yeah, ask from anyone that was a drone pilot 10 years ago.

Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:51 am
by Kim Janson
Yes it is happening on other areas too, today you can get the Davinci resolve for free, even the full version when it comes with the camera and ok computer starting at 1000 euro. How much would that editing station have cost 10 years ago...

I am just saying think about it, and I do not think it is all good, mostly because the change is awful fast.

Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 1:41 pm
by kalinska
Australian Image wrote:The EVF has been around for a decade or more, there's no development required other than to re-think the form-factor and features.

I totally agree with Ray. Someone here only see by luxury goods or very expensive. This is a big mistake. I have an old used Evf Cineroid which is ample with a strong sun.

Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 2:57 am
by ricardo marty
Got tired of waiting. Got a good price for a sidefinder. Almost purchased the portkeys but its only powered by dtap.

Hopes this works

Ricardo Marty

Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 1:00 pm
by Kim Janson
It has taken some time, the 3D printable loupe idea is not dead. It has now sun cover, still some work on this, but starting to be pretty happy to it. This one was printed with Prusa i3 MK3 using PETG so it will not deform under sun.



Loupe.jpg
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The first versions will attach directly to the camera, later on maybe to cages. Also there will be version that has attachment for Samsung T5, this will be available at the same time with the first non T5 version.

Loupe2.jpg
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Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2019 6:04 pm
by FIlmboy
Hi Guys
I too have been working on a Viewfinder for the P4k "Blackeye". I'm about a month away for production. I'm trying to work out a few minor issues with the lens as it has a High eyepoint diopter adjustment +- glass eyepiece. I will be sending out a few for reviews shortly.

Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 9:16 pm
by ricardo marty
FIlmboy wrote:Hi Guys
I too have been working on a Viewfinder for the P4k "Blackeye". I'm about a month away for production. I'm trying to work out a few minor issues with the lens as it has a High eyepoint diopter adjustment +- glass eyepiece. I will be sending out a few for reviews shortly.


Any news about your product?

Ricardo Marty

Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 12:12 am
by rick.lang
Well, the product name is great.


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Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 5:05 pm
by ricardo marty
No answer. hopefully he is busy working on this project or on a gig.


Ricardo Marty

Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:38 am
by Kim Janson
The summer was really busy, I finally had some time for this project. This is the version we will send for first testers. The sun cover has been improved, there is additional support for Arca Swiss plate.



If there is interest there will be many versions, for different gages, with battery, with attachment for SSD etc. but you need to print them your self. We will make an assessory bag that provides, lens, magnets screws etc.

Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:33 pm
by Jim Giberti
Count me in when the're ready Kim.

Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:10 pm
by ricardo marty
Kim Janson wrote:The summer was really busy, I finally had some time for this project. This is the version we will send for first testers. The sun cover has been improved, there is additional support for Arca Swiss plate.



If there is interest there will be many versions, for different gages, with battery, with attachment for SSD etc. but you need to print them your self. We will make an assessory bag that provides, lens, magnets screws etc.


Its sounds great for many and your product seems good but id rather buy it done or almost done. I think Filmboy seems to be thinking in a finished product. I definitely won't buy a 3d printer nor do I know of any such service. I know it would probably be more expensive so let's see.

Ricardo Marty

Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:15 pm
by Kim Janson
The beauty of 3D printing is that yesterday this was an idea, now I can test how it feels, and yes, there will be few small changes, but this should be nice, should provide 2+ hours operational time.

IMG_5050.jpg
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IMG_5046.jpg
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This is great for prototyping, but 3D printing makes possible also to have many different version, so something that fits perfectly your needs.

This kind of loupe is quite ideal for 3D printing, the DIY pack (lenses, magnets, screws etc.) can be send as a letter, and the printing material does not cost much.

There is many public places where it is free to 3D print (in Finland at lest)

I understand though perfectly that 3D printing / DIY is not for every one, it is great there will be alternatives.

For us this is a test project, we will be selling the DIY pack. If that provides enough income we will keep developing the loupe, version for different cages etc. also for Video Assist etc. and provide the printable files for anyone to print.


Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 2:14 pm
by ricardo marty
Kim Janson wrote:The beauty of 3D printing is that yesterday this was an idea, now I can test how it feels, and yes, there will be few small changes, but this should be nice, should provide 2+ hours operational time.

IMG_5050.jpg


IMG_5047.jpg


Great idea. I think you should place it on left side to counter balance.

Ricardo Marty

IMG_5046.jpg


This is great for prototyping, but 3D printing makes possible also to have many different version, so something that fits perfectly your needs.

This kind of loupe is quite ideal for 3D printing, the DIY pack (lenses, magnets, screws etc.) can be send as a letter, and the printing material does not cost much.

There is many public places where it is free to 3D print (in Finland at lest)

I understand though perfectly that 3D printing / DIY is not for every one, it is great there will be alternatives.

For us this is a test project, we will be selling the DIY pack. If that provides enough income we will keep developing the loupe, version for different cages etc. also for Video Assist etc. and provide the printable files for anyone to print.


Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 5:16 pm
by Phil999
very impressive. A loupe for the Pocket cameras is a good idea. Handheld footage will become much more stable.

Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:00 pm
by Peter J. DeCrescenzo
Kim Janson wrote:I understand, I saw your rig on some other post.

However, I find this prety good for a very simple rig. It provides very good visibility on the screen and 3rd support point from the head when shooting. The camera buttons come easy to use blindly after some practise, everything is nicely acessible without taking eye from the loupe.



Touch screen needs to be operated only when accessing the camera menu, not needed during normal shooting. The loupe provides access to the touch screen when needed.


Looking good, Kim! Keep us up to date! Cheers.

Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 3:25 pm
by Kim Janson
Still some updates during this week, now printing the first units


Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:40 pm
by ricardo marty
Kim Janson wrote:Still some updates during this week, now printing the first units



Does it have an adjustable diopter?

Is it sent whole?

Does it have space underneath to touch the screen?

Ricardo Marty

Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 5:20 pm
by Kim Janson
We are making now first samples for testers after we will make a do it your self kit available. This will include lens, screws and magnets. It will be roughly 50 euros + shipping with normal post around 10 euro.

The idea is that people 3D print it them self or find locally someone who can do that.

We will make some of them available ready build, That will be somewhat expensive, likely around 150 euro + shipping and shipping is expensive also as it is big box, and for that we use only DHL, so around 60 euros to Europe and 80 to 100 euro elsewhere.

It does not have a diopter it remains to be seen if adjustment is needed. The lens is big and relatively far away from the screen, I think this helps. (However for sure more than +-1 diopter will be out of focus) If diopter adjustment is needed, it is simply changing the distance of the lens from the screen. We plan not to do it adjustable, but can make different length loupes available to print.

As the lens is big, it is easy to use eyeglasses with it.

It has sun cover for the magnifying class.

it has hole at the bottom to access the touchscreen, see the videos above.

Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 10:02 am
by Kim Janson
The 3D printable files are available. I made a separate post about the 3D printable loop viewtopic.php?f=2&t=99285

And as related to the integrated SSD holder, request if you know good short USB C cables viewtopic.php?f=2&t=99280

Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 5:05 pm
by Andy Coulthurst
Kim Janson wrote:The 3D printable files are available. I made a separate post about the 3D printable loop viewtopic.php?f=2&t=99285

And as related to the integrated SSD holder, request if you know good short USB C cables viewtopic.php?f=2&t=99280


Excellent - I intend to try and print them as soon as can get in front of my printer !
Many thanks for the files

Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 3:01 pm
by ricardo marty
Denny Smith wrote:Yes, that is about the same size as the new Zacuto and not much smaller than my Wooden Camera mod of the BMD EVF. They are keeping the size down by having the video processor and lower boards in the camera, so fewer components in the actual EVF.
Cheers


This guy is using the bmd evf on a p6k without a mod He shows it at close to the end of the video.





Ricardo Marty

Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:17 pm
by rick.lang
Ricardo, I thought he specified the BMVF was modded by Tilta.


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Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:32 pm
by Denny Smith
He did, and this is the Tilta mod of the EVF. ;)

Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:53 pm
by Leon Benzakein
Denny Smith wrote:He did, and this is the Tilta mod of the EVF. ;)


agree

Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 5:52 pm
by ricardo marty
rick.lang wrote:Ricardo, I thought he specified the BMVF was modded by Tilta.


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Yes, I stand corrected.

Ricardo Marty

Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 5:57 pm
by Denny Smith
One is not really any better than the other, they accomplish the same thing, but with a slightly different body configuration. Thr WC mod you can do yourself (not very hard, I did one) but while the Tilta started out a user mod, it quickly became a Tilta mod, requiring you to send them your EVF, adding the cost of postage and labor to the total cost.
Cheers

Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 6:08 pm
by ricardo marty
Denny Smith wrote:One is not really any better than the other, they accomplish the same thing, but with a slightly different body configuration. Thr WC mod you can do yourself (not very hard, I did one) but while the Tilta started out a user mod, it quickly became a Tilta mod, requiring you to send them your EVF, adding the cost of postage and labor to the total cost.
Cheers



It's still in the Zacuto price range but for something like that, I would not pay more than 900. I just purchased a sidefinder in the box for 650. and works great with my p4k but mainly purchased for the fs700. Still looking for a loop. I contacted Hoodman and they are working on something for a 5-inch screen. Don't know why it's so difficult specially for a company that specializes in hoods for cameras. With one for the 4-6pk they would make a ton of money, Thet had one for the original pocket.

Ricardo Marty

Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 6:16 pm
by Denny Smith
Yes, by the time you add the cost of the mod to a new cost of the EVF it is. I got my BMD EVF used for $900, got one of the last WC mod kits on sale, and ended up with a total cost less than the new cost of the BMD EVF. I had a Side Finder, it was nice, but not a fan of its mirror setup and it is more bulky.

The new Zacuto Kameleon looks like it would just fit the bill, but it is too expensive, a slightly used Gratical HD is a better buy, even if a little larger, and one can be had for $900-1200. It takes HDMI in, gives SDI Cross conversion out and has its own battery, checks all the boxes, except size is still on the large side, but still smaller than the Side Finder.
Cheers

Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 7:01 pm
by rick.lang
Every good option seems to cost as much as or more than the Blackmagic Video Assist 12G 7” which you may consider even more flexible on various cameras than the modded BMVF. I’m leaning that way for the film shoot next year as the director might be able to watch that monitor too whereas the VF is an operator tool only.


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Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 7:49 pm
by ricardo marty
rick.lang wrote:Every good option seems to cost as much as or more than the Blackmagic Video Assist 12G 7” which you may consider even more flexible on various cameras than the modded BMVF. I’m leaning that way for the film shoot next year as the director might be able to watch that monitor too whereas the VF is an operator tool only.

Ill wait and see how the new bmd va works as a monitor.

Ricardo Marty



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Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:35 pm
by Denny Smith
I agree Rick, I find I am using a monitor more these days, and with the zoom to focus feature, a monitor is just as quick and easy to focus with. Mi ran several tests with my BM EVF and a SmallHD Focus OLED, the OLED monitor was just as easy to pull focus with.

I did some outdoor interviews at a local car show, and used the LCD more than the EVF, it was quicker and just as accurate.
Cheers

Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:52 pm
by rick.lang
And 2500 nits when you need it ain’t bad!


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Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2019 9:36 am
by Kim Janson
So maybe something like this :D

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IMG_5103.jpg
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Ps. the BMPCC4k upper attachment point can not take this heavy load, just carefully used it for these pictures and do not have a cage.

Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:50 am
by Kim Janson
BTW, is there a way to get the magnified image that is available on camera LCD from HDMI? I know the VA has magnifier too, but the camera button is much easier to use.

Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 5:26 am
by Robert Castiglione
Hi,

My first post on this forum. I am a long time Red camera user and currently own the Red Epic X which I have been using for years. It still works flawlessly despite being dropped once. In fact it seemed to work better after it was dropped. I am quite astonished by the fact that a little inexpensive 4k camera is making its way into professional cinematography.

Anyway, a viewfinder is critical for the work I do and I have been doing research. In fact I am not really sure how people shoot without one. Forget the portkeys viewfinder. The fan noise on it is VERY loud. The only really viable option at the moment appears to be the Zucuto line and they are of course pricey. However, I am going to stump up the cash for the new Kameleon which is very light and has a small form factor. It is worth the cost because the Kameleon is vesatile and is usable on many cameras - it can receive both an HDMI or SDI signal. I am sure it will outlive the pocket 4k and be used on furture blackmagic cameras and others. .

Anyway, once I have the evf and and all the bits and pieces to set the camera up on a balanced proper shoulder rig I will let you all you know how I go.

Cheers

Rob Castiglione

Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 5:12 pm
by Denny Smith
I agree Rob, I also was brought up using a good pro EVF, and when shooting hand held or outdoors, You really need one. A good one like the BMD or Zacuto Gratical Line are a joy to use, and are effective.

However, for indoor shoots, the newer high definition monitors available today work very well also, are are actually easier and quicker to use.
Cheers.

Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 7:47 pm
by rick.lang
That’s a very appealing EVF. Looking forward to your review of the Kameleon which was top of the wishlist until the relatively economical and flexible Blackmagic Video Assist 12G 7” 2500 nits appeared.

The BMVM12G7’s extra weight may be a challenge, but the ability work with a larger bright screen on an articulating arm has its place. My eyes need all the help they can get and it might serve as a director’s monitor too as well as an insurance recording. I’m almost always working from a tripod so it works for me.


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Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 8:11 pm
by Kim Janson
With the above posted sunhood + loupe the 5" VA apears like 32" monitor at about 1 m. I can see the pixels on the FHD monitor. I quite like it. I tested also with dual lense, viewing with both eyes, and it provides good view to the monitor, but eyes get too much twisted.

On both cases eye can be some cm of the lens, not very accurate how the eye is positioned. When the lense is not needed, it is easy to but aside and just have the sun hood.

I wonder if the new 5" VA has the same mechanical dimensions as the older one.