BRAW for P4K—days, weeks or months?

Does the BMPCC4K shoot RAW right out of the box?

Some of the literature I've read says it does.

Is this Black Magic Raw's proprietary codec, or BRAW, or is the onboard RAW capability a different kind of RAW?

I am assuming that ProRes RAW is something else that may/could be added later if they are able to get Apple licensing?

I'm a little confused as there are different kinds of RAW but it is my understanding that shooting ProRes RAW is the best choice for 4K since it can be graded using the DaVinci Suite included with purchase of the camera?

I'd like to know if someone in the community has heard any bird whispers about this.

Or, naturally preferably, if someone from BMD could make a non committing statement to what they are aiming for.

For the way I'd like to use the camera, I'd like to get the file sizes down.

It's already been out for a while for the URSA and if I understand things correctly, the P4K was planned since the beginning. I''d expect most of the dev work to be done already. What's the holdup?

No one in the community has heard anything about a release date. As it relates to BMD’s timeline, they announced and started shipping the 4K pocket before they even announced BMD Raw.

Looking at the UMP, BMD Raw 3:1 and CDNG 3:1 are identical in size and you can start shooting that in the meantime.

Looking at the UMP, BMD Raw 3:1 and CDNG 3:1 are identical in size and you can start shooting that in the meantime.

Only problem is, I'm interested in minimum, not maximum file size. The more compressed braw shows lots of promise for what I need.

The holdup may be finishing 6.0beta BRAW on the URSA Mini Pro. They have committed to bringing BRAW to other cameras if possible. The first on the list will be the BMPCC4K. No timeframe, but I’d expect it to be near the end of 2018 at the earliest and before NAB2019. Likely BRAW will also appear on the URSA Mini 4.6K next with no timeframe in mind.

If you’re interested in minimal file sizes for your video recording, is ProRes an option? ProRes Proxy certainly is minimal and may suffice until BRAW 12:1 or Q5 is available.


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Does the BMPCC4K shoot RAW right out of the box?

Yes, you have CinemaDNG raw, raw 3:1, and raw 4:1 on the BMPCC4K as well as ProRes 422 HQ etc.

...Is this Black Magic Raw's proprietary codec, or BRAW...

Not yet. CinemaDNG raw (uncompressed lossless) I believe is a term invented by BMD to refer to a clip as a folder containing DNG frames. DNG raw was originally created by Adobe, but has been made open source. BMD’s 3:1 and 4:1 lossy compression was invented by BMD to save recording space and is not supported by Adobe generally.

I am assuming that ProRes RAW is something else that may/could be added later if they are able to get Apple licensing?

ProRes raw was created by a few partners of Apple including Atomos and DJI who had a six month exclusive rights to the codec. That period is over. Anyone can pay license fees to Apple and use the codec subject to Apple’s approval of each iteration of the codec in a vendor’s cameras. I think the consensus here is that BMD will never implement ProRes raw in their cameras although the official word at NAB2018 was they would “take a look at it.” BRAW trumps ProRes raw for various reasons.

...ProRes RAW is the best choice for 4K since it can be graded using the DaVinci Suite included with purchase of the camera?

DaVinci Resolve supports many different codecs. That’s completely apart from whether or not a given codec is used to capture video in a BMD camera. Of course BRAW will also be available in Resolve. The rather impressive results so far in the 6.0beta BRAW indicate this codec will be ideal for any resolution codec going forward.

It’s great there are so many options on different platforms. Most are proprietary meaning they need to be licensed if used by a third party. BMD has stated they want BRAW to be a successful and available codec used by other camera manufacturers, but we are not privy to any discussions they may have regarding its widespread adoption by the industry. It’s very early days given it is still being tested and not generally available even on BMD cameras. So too soon to judge if BRAW will succeed broadly, but it will be a popular choice here. It appears BMD will continue to offer CinemaDNG raw alongside BRAW and ProRes.


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The holdup may be finishing 6.0beta BRAW on the URSA Mini Pro.

If you’re interested in minimal file sizes for your video recording, is ProRes an option? ProRes Proxy certainly is minimal and may suffice until BRAW 12:1 or Q5 is available.

Yes, I'm using flavours of ProRes now, since that is what we've got.

I just want to poke the fire/stir the pot on this topic to see if I can provoke some kind of response. It's already official that support is coming (in Grant's video). And since it's no secret, I just wish they were a bit more open about the rough time frame.

I just want to poke the fire/stir the pot on this topic to see if I can provoke some kind of response. It's already official that support is coming (in Grant's video). And since it's no secret, I just wish they were a bit more open about the rough time frame.

That is one thing that BMD needs to improve. Talking to customers... it doesn't have to provide any sort of specifics like release dates, but even just replying to say, "Yes, we are working on it, we haven't forgotten you" would go a long way with customers.

The thing is that if you go silent, people start to assume the worst, even if everything is going according to plan.

Understand your enthusiasm, Andree. Nothing seems simple though with so many irons in the fire. Once they get passed September, the camera division may also be heavily invested in getting ready for NAB 2019. On the other hand, if they can’t provide updates that are implied, and if people haven’t received cameras before the end of the year, they know they may see many cancellations of orders and a drop off of sales while people wait it out for NAB 2019 with the feint hope that things will be different then (announced hardware products available for order).

We’ve had this conversation on the forum before. The “same old, same old” story can wear thin as the years go by. Wouldn’t it be nice to anticipate new gear shipping at NAB as the new normal? Get off the treadmill BMD if that’s what it takes. Or switch to IBC as your launch party since that buys you 5 more months. Even the automobile industry that for decades launched and shipped all new vehicle models in September has relaxed that and expanded the window to be somewhere from September to April.

All easier said than done of course, primarily due to the extensive reliance on suppliers and the sheer complexity of the requirements and perhaps I’m being too harsh given their inexperience due to a relatively short history of making cameras compared to all their major competitors.



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Thank you for great answers, but I'm still a little confused:

Just to clarify on the current RAW capability of the P4K::

P4K shoots RAW right out of box, and it's CinemaDNG, and currently no ProRes or BRAW?

You mention BRAW has advantages over ProRes, what are those advantages and is BRAW just as good
or better than CinemaDNG?

It currently shoots CDNG raw, from 4:1 to lossless, and a few varieties of Prores, from HQ to Proxy, in either "film" or video/LUT modes.

The camera will eventually support BRAW, but it remains to be seen whether braw, which is something of a hybrid, "quasi-raw" format, offers compelling advantages over Prores, and for what exactly. The main advantage I see for braw is UHD 12:1 -- which doesn't require much high data rates than Prores HQ HD. If it's as good as Prores UHD HQ, then its a real boon.

The camera will eventually support BRAW, but it remains to be seen whether braw, which is something of a hybrid, "quasi-raw" format, offers compelling advantages over Prores

It's already obvious that the answer is, "Yes, it does."

The advantages of shooting CinemaDNG or eventually BRAW relate to the latitude of changes available to you in post processing both in terms of breadth and depth. Usually your best images will begin with raw acquisition. Speaking of stills, every CinemaDNG is a sequence of frames or stills and is complete and lets you generate beautiful prints if you wish.

When the greatest precision is required raw usually triumphs as each pixel independently defines it’s character completely. So it may be much easier when doing visual effects and composites with green screens. Not essential but easier.

The advantages of ProRes are many including typically having easier post processing because the codec is much less processor intensive to work with on the Timeline. The quality of ProRes can be quite high and it’s used all over the place in production of film and television.

But it does require greater care in terms of the scene lighting and camera settings that determine colour temperature and tint. Because those things are baked into the image. You can manipulate temperature and tint in post, but in baby steps, not banana steps. In raw, you can more easily do Day for Night shoots for example with the right lighting.

ProRes uses more compression and that can be an advantage on a BMD camera at times. For example in a scene with a potential for moiré, raw will usually bite you whereas ProRes may suppress most of the effect.

ProRes is often used as the codec of choice on your post Timeline in editing and grading. So if you shoot ProRes you don’t have to transcode footage before editing. If you shoot BRAW it appears to be less processor intensive and may not require transcoding.

ProRes is a single file per clip including audio. CinemaDNG is a file per frame so much more processor and I/O intensive to create and use.

ProRes is licensed and tightly controlled by Apple and the benefit of that is everyone understands it, it’s interoperable. Therefore if you only shoot the images and someone else does the post, they may ask for ProRes files because they don’t want to deal with the sundry variations. Raw is often proprietary and sometimes is open but began as proprietary like CinemaDNG and BMD’s proprietary use of DNG in raw 3:1 and raw 4:1.

I’m sure there are other benefits of either codec, but the primary advantage of raw is your flexibility in post and the primary advantage of ProRes is your ease of use in post. Many purposes truly benefit from ease of use, especially when deadlines are frequent and tight. But raw puts the image quality front and centre, but may require longer timeframes.

Edit
BRAW is different than CinemaDNG and different from ProRes raw. BRAW is a single file per clip but also retains the flexibility of adjustments you have with CDNG. So BRAW is less I/O intensive to Write the media but more intensive in camera as it is like a pre-processor of some functions normally done with raw in post-processing. BMD proprietary but so is Apple’s ProRes raw. BRAW will prove to be very flexible in post compared to ProRes raw. Both are likely playable on the Timeline without transcoding. BRAW is designed to retain the good features of raw and add some of the good features of ProRes such as moiré handling.


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But raw puts the image quality front and centre

We'll leave aside the self-evidently trollish objections -- will raw rescue the bad performances and lousy direction and writing characteristic of low budget movies? -- but I've never understood this argument on its own terms, either.

For rudimentary shoots which will lack both the production values and the professional grading skill to exploit what advantages may persist for raw, as implemented in BMD cameras, what's the point? What do people expect to gain -- in the real world? I know this is akin to saying someone's dog is ugly, but come on.... Highlight recovery aside, what difference is raw going to make, under these circumstances? Any marginal improvement you manage to eek out will be swamped by the production's other deficiencies.

Shooting ProRes or Raw, you need to know what you are doing to get the best results from any codec on a BM Cine Camera. A point and shoot it is not!
Cheers

John, when all you’ve got are a bunch of broken eggs, you can still make scrambled eggs. When everything that you thought would be great looks like a lemon, you can still make lemonade. You just do the best you can do and sometimes that means using raw and sometimes using ProRes in the context of the question that was asked.

With all those broken items you mentioned, the right editor and colourist might surprise you with a soufflé. Sounds like a challenging film school project.


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John, when all you’ve got are a bunch of broken eggs, you can still make scrambled eggs. When everything that you thought would be great looks like a lemon, you can still make lemonade. You just do the best you can do and sometimes that means using raw and sometimes using ProRes in the context of the question that was asked.

With all those broken items you mentioned, the right editor and colourist might surprise you with a soufflé. Sounds like a challenging film school project.


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Well said Rick.

Okay, I think that answers my question. CinemaDNG is the on-board RAW image file format and that should give plenty of flexibility in post.

Additionally, we are waiting for the wizards at Black Magic to make BRAW available as a firmware upgrade, but that is in limbo.

Got it!