Blackmagic Forum

Sat Nov 17, 2018 5:08 am

Hi

Sorry if this isn't right for this forum, but I find everyone on this forum always has valuable advice!

I'm a freelance videographer, photographer and musician. I do everything myself, two camera interviews, sound, editing etc.

I only started doing this for work a few years ago, but I have used cameras all my life and worked with tech, computers and music production all my life too.

I am trying to work out what to charge for creating shortish promo videos for business. So usually a 3 to 5 minute video with talking head interviews and cutting away to B roll. I treat it like a very mini documentary, so it has that feel more than an advert or promo I guess.

I have read so many websites and forums, and I know it varies drastically what people charge. I just can't even decide whether to charge a flat rate for the whole project or hourly rate. I feel there is something simple about a project rate that I like. I also have undersold myself in the past and worked for nothing for charities. It gets a bit tiring to lose out when you feel you are doing skilled work.

The other issue is I'm from the UK but travel, and have done work in Europe and in Thailand. When I'm in Thailand I have worked for Rehabs who charge huge prices to their clients, yet they are reluctant to pay western prices.

I came to a base rate of £30 an hour, and if charging a project rate then I worked it out around this rate beforehand.

Would you consider this a reasonable price, or am I under selling myself? The most frustrating thing is knowing that the employer will never see the hours of sorting, editing, grading, composing etc. And I am extremely obsessive so I dont just do the bare minimum!

Any advice would be very welcome, although I appreciate its very hard advice to give!
Thanks

Sat Nov 17, 2018 7:59 am

Everything under 50 € (without VAT) is sponsoring/charity/special-price/educational for any kind of freelance work (woodworker, musican, editor, graphic designer ...). I may not get this on every job and money is not everything. But it is a good starting point, when everybody involved (including myself) knows where charity starts.

I do my calculation rarely in hours but in days: 2 days shooting, two days cutting, one day music. 500 € a day.
An other rule of thumb for simple projects: each minute film needs 1000 €

Hope that helps. Looking forward what other have to say.

Johannes

Sat Nov 17, 2018 8:04 am

Alex, I know how difficult that is in the beginning (and even later too).
We had a good discussion with lots of advices here 4 years ago, which I had bookmarked:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=23567

Sat Nov 17, 2018 8:12 am

Some further help:

Rate calculator: https://www.videomaker.com/video-rate-calculator
https://www.videomaker.com/article/f10/ ... calculator

https://freelancinghacks.com/how-much-s ... nce-rates/

https://www.and.co/blog/freelance-knowl ... reelancer/

Sat Nov 17, 2018 8:14 am

And about working for free: print this out onto a big poster:
http://www.shouldiworkforfree.com

Sat Nov 17, 2018 8:39 am

Oh and what most people forget when calculating a project:

Your time for acquisition, writing quotes, writing invoices, phone work, meetings with clients, planning and organizing. All those activities take time and have to be payed somehow too.

Sat Nov 17, 2018 11:19 am

I don't work in this field so can't comment on rates, but I do have thoughts on charging by the hour/day vs. charging by the project.

I worked for a while as a freelance writer (and still do some freelance work on the side), and my experience with charging by the project was that I always ended up making less. There are so many unknowns: on one project I accepted a flat fee and finished the first draft in about a week. But this was for a chapter of a government report that went out to multiple agencies for review and comment. By the time I finished making revisions to address all the comments that came in, my income per hour was lower than if I'd been flipping burgers at McDonald's.

I currently work for a consulting firm and everything's billed by the hour or day, including the work done by our video studio -- they will estimate total project costs for budgeting purposes of course, but actual work is billed by the hour. In my experience, responding to client comments can easily take as much time or more than completing the initial draft version of something, whether it's a report, a website, or a video. This is why charging a flat fee per project is risky. We take fixed-price contracts and time-and-materials contracts. The fixed-price contracts are always hard for us because that's essentially a flat rate for the project. We have to be very efficient and hope the client doesn't have many revisions to demand, otherwise we'll lose money. In contrast, time-and-materials contracts mean we just get paid for the hours we work and any materials we have to purchase. Those are much more flexible, and when you're creating things flexibility is helpful.

Sat Nov 17, 2018 11:27 am

I found flat fees always to be just for the benefit of the client, because they never give any thoughts about efficiency into their communication with you or about revisions.
If they know upfront that they have to pay more if they don't care about the flow of information, if they are not prepared for the shooting days, or if X executives/managers are giving in their contradicting inputs, they are more willing to cut the nonsense or at least you get compensated for their nonsense.

If you agreed to suck that up for free, then you have to suck that up - and it ain't gonna be fun.

You'd be surprised how often there is more budget appearing magically than they would agree upfront. Especially if it is about the ego of a CEO/manager to make a better impression in the video. You just have to communicate and talk about money before it is too late.

Sat Nov 17, 2018 6:27 pm

It’s complicated. If you’re doing things that you’ve done many times before, perhaps for the same business client, you have a good idea what you need to make and you might give that repeat client something close to a flat budget, such as €300/day assuming a minimum 3 full days billed for the project. Each additional full day would be €300. So the repeat client gets a flat rate for budgeting €900 because you know you can do the job well in two or three days. But if reviews and revisions are requested adding another 2 days beyond your minimum 3days, they know it’s a €1.500 project.

If it’s a new client, you and they won’t know what to expect in terms of fair compensation or time involved. An example of that is a wedding. Weddings could be well organized and brief or a mess and take forever. If you’ve done a few, you know how unpredictable it is. You need to be able to talk to the groom and bride and outline what needs to be done, the job’s spec, before giving them an estimate. You don’t charge for that time, if they don’t hire you, but if they do, you’ve already factored in what consultation expenses need to be. You can estimate costs, based on your historical efforts, but don’t give them a fixed cost because the bride will always be in control of your effort.

I’m always stunned by what Wedding photographers charge! Considering their equipment costs are less than yours and their digital editing is usually going to be ‘Auto’ everything. I’m sure you work twice as hard as they do but will earn half as much!

Sun Nov 18, 2018 3:09 am

Thanks for all the advice and links, I really appreciate it. It does seem most people struggle with pricing projects.

It's frustrating that nobody sees what happens after you shoot the project. Maybe we need to film a time-lapse of us doing the post work and give it to them

I agree that having a price for the whole project is more for the client. Projects of any kind go over the estimate 9 times out of 10 in my experience. I used to do building work and it was always the same! We are obviously optimistic about our capabilities and cant foresee the issues we will run into.

That said, I like defining a price because it means I work at it as efficiently as possible. Not that I would slack off on an hourly rate, but it changes the dynamic, and I prefer not to be thinking about it as much.

My issue is that I'm quite obsessive, and I would usually continue way past the point of it being very profitable. This is my own problem and I need to know when to stop and let go. I dont do a lot of projects as I do other things as well as video, so I like to do my best.

Also, if I am in a country like Thailand it gets more confusing. For instance I have the opportunity to work for rehabs who charge huge mounts to their clients, yet they dont want to pay western prices for anything as they are in Thailand. And when I'm in Thailand its far cheaper for me to live, but still I feel that if these places are charging western prices to their clients I can do the same to them.

I've also looked around at local photographers and videographers, and I'm shocked at the prices. Especially for photographers. It seems like most people charge $100 an hour to more, or $50 a photo. I also take photos and to me its a far easier and less intricate job than creating a mini doc/promo style video.

Anyway, I will read through the threads you linked to, and give it some more thought. Thanks very much for the help

Sun Nov 18, 2018 5:11 am

and if you want anyone to take you seriously don't call yourself a "Videographer" aim higher.

Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:15 am

Stephen Press wrote:and if you want anyone to take you seriously don't call yourself a "Videographer" aim higher.

Yeah, I cringe when someone introduces me as a videographer. I mean, what it that? Am I taking photos with a video camera?

Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:29 am

Alex Delfont wrote:I've also looked around at local photographers and videographers, and I'm shocked at the prices. Especially for photographers. It seems like most people charge $100 an hour to more, or $50 a photo. I also take photos and to me its a far easier and less intricate job than creating a mini doc/promo style video.

You are shocked at the prices because you haven't calculated your expenses needed to stay in a business, yet. If you undercharge you will always struggle and have to work overtime to be able to live from your income. If you charge accordingly, then you will get less of the sucker clients who want to get more and more for less, and you will find yourself having enough time for private life and also a nice income.

Sun Nov 18, 2018 12:57 pm

Yeah you are probably right, I'm just slowly feeling my way around it all. I'm also maybe a bit too 'nice'! I find it hard to stand my ground if another person is pushing for what they want!

But I'll get there

Sun Nov 18, 2018 4:01 pm

Alex Delfont wrote:Yeah you are probably right, I'm just slowly feeling my way around it all. I'm also maybe a bit too 'nice'! I find it hard to stand my ground if another person is pushing for what they want!

But I'll get there

Learning to say NO is the hardest part for most creative people. You don't have to please everyone, especially when they are trying to take advantage of you.

Mon Nov 19, 2018 1:45 am

Yeah you are right. I have a meeting with the Director of this rehab in Thailand tomorrow, to discuss what he wants. I've seen their other videos which are quite low quality and feel lifeless to me.

I think maybe I should hold off offering any price tomorrow and just say I want to think over what's involved before quoting. Then maybe I could post back here and see what people think! The Rehab charges western prices to their clients, something like $5000 pm. So they would be getting a good return on investment if I charged something similar to that, and even one person came because of the video.

I imagine they will want a 5 min or so promo video, maybe a couple of talking head interviews, b roll etc. I will likely compose and record the music too, unless they want stock music

Thanks again

Mon Nov 19, 2018 2:01 am

I do not take anything less than $100 per hour, with a two hour minimum, plus any equipment rental.
I get paid, the camera get paid, and any lighting equipment I take to the job get paid. :mrgreen:

Cheers

Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:52 am

Do you have a rental company near you? Have a look at what they charge to hire out. Break down your labor cost and equipment rate. Work out how long the shoot should take. Most freelancers don't do under a half day 5 hours at 60% of a full 10 hour day rate. Add editing cost and music if you are doing that. Once you have all that then you know what the job is worth. If you are willing to go lower then that is up to you but make sure the client knows if you are giving a special deal and what it should be costing, that way they will respect your work more and anyone who hires you at full rate won't feel like they got ripped of.
You are a business you have to act like one so you can play at filming

Mon Nov 19, 2018 7:49 am

I've read so many threads, and comments ts on related youtube videos and its just so varied what people charge it makes it almost impossible to say what something 'should' cost.

But I contacted a few video people in Chiang Mai, the closest big city. One charges about $350 a day, the other about $550 a day, for filming or editing. There work is mediocre, I'm certain I can do much better.

I found at today that the rehab actually charges clients $6000 for a 4 week stay. So I'm thinking even if my video gets one or two people to come its basically paid for itself. Their current video content is awful.

My issue is my obsessive nature! And the fact I dont do as many jobs as many people so I get obsessed with one! I imagine to make a 5 minute promo/interview video like this most people would spend maybe 2 days shooting and 3 or 4 editing, grading, finishing etc. I've always taken about 80 to 100 hours to finish them, and its not because I'm slow, I just tweak a lot! And the music as I said takes some time.

I just wonder if working this way means I cant charge more as they might see it as taking too long. But in a sense its all time put towards making something higher quality.

Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:35 am

Alex Delfont wrote:My issue is my obsessive nature! And the fact I dont do as many jobs as many people so I get obsessed with one! I imagine to make a 5 minute promo/interview video like this most people would spend maybe 2 days shooting and 3 or 4 editing, grading, finishing etc. I've always taken about 80 to 100 hours to finish them, and its not because I'm slow, I just tweak a lot! And the music as I said takes some time.

Seriously, stop tweaking around! If your potential client had accepted that awful videos as representing them until now, why do you think they will care about any twiddle-tweaks? Make it look 90% great and forget the 10% rest which takes the most amount of time. Use the free available time to go out into nature, read a book or learn something new. But don't waste it on a client who is neither paying for it nor does appreciate it.

Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:38 am

Yeah this is a big issue for me but you are probably right. I do it for me more, because I want to be happy with it. But I never am so its like filling a leaky bucket!

But yeah I need to let go when its good enough, and learn when that is!

Mon Nov 19, 2018 9:02 am

I know exactly how you feel, as I did the same. That worked out in the beginning, when I had less jobs and more time. Nowadays I am swamped with work and I had to do something about that.

What I take care of:

* When shooting interviews with CEOs and other important clients - always insist on lighting them when shooting indoors. On the outside, try to position them carefully.
I care less with vox pop (interviewing random people for a short statement).

* Always make sure audio is great.

* for image films (if budgeted accordingly) I care even more about light, so I bring in the bigger units

* let someone clean up the background in the office (or do it yourself)

* check white balance with color checker gray chart and also record a short clip of color checker chart for reference when possible

* in the edit I do a basic color correction I've prepared as a preset onto the important talking heads and then tweak that shots until skin color looks great and natural. Elderly women get some skin treatment by beautybox from digital anarchy - only very decent but enough that if they watch themselves are amazed how good looking you made them. Woman also always care about glossiness of the skin. That can be addressed on set by adjusting lights, makeup and using a polar filter (as a last resort).

* in the edit telling a story is the most important part, that gets most of my time

* I basic correct the rest of the shots after the edit is locked. Take care of shots where white balance/exposure is way off. Do some post-stabilizing if necessary. (I prefer to shoot from tripod, so there are only few shots to stabilize normally)

* choose great music, clients can spot bad music and bad audio immediately but not minor problems with the picture

* takle audio issues and mix voice, ambiance and music, priority is intelligibility

* create inserts and other gfx if necessary

Mon Nov 19, 2018 9:31 pm

Stephen Press wrote:and if you want anyone to take you seriously don't call yourself a "Videographer" aim higher.

I was wondering when that one would come up.

Videographer is the motion picture equivalent of a GWC, or what I often refer to as a camera dongle.

Mon Nov 19, 2018 9:41 pm

Denny Smith wrote:I do not take anything less than $100 per hour, with a two hour minimum, plus any equipment rental.
I get paid, the camera get paid, and any lighting equipment I take to the job get paid.
Cheers

Sounds like a good plan

Mon Nov 19, 2018 9:49 pm

The issue of price is mostly dependent on YOU. The market will adjust if your work is good enough.

Everyone wants to feel that they are getting MORE than their moneys worth (just look at the pocket 4k threads). They want to feel like they got a killer deal. The only way for you to get what you think you're worth AND they feel like they got the deal they're looking for is that YOU up the level of your work.

It's a hard fact that we all have to face. If someone is scoffing at your price, it's because they think it's not worth it. So you can either prove to them it's not worth it and lower your price OR move on and show them why your work IS worth the price you've set and you'll probably get to charge them more by the time they come around again.

Everyone you've ever heard of who pays crazy prices for things can only find solace in knowing that it was worth it. MAKE IT WORTH IT AND CHARGE WHATEVER YOU WANT!

If you need or want the money though, it puts you in a bit of a pickle. You may take something less than what you're worth and become stuck in a vicious cycle.

If you focus on the craft and not the money, you'll make way more money in the long run. Also, you may be the work horse and someone else should be trying to get the work. The highest paying job I'd gotten at one point was because a friend got it for me. Sold me to the client better than I ever could or would have. Maybe it's time to start building a team.

Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:01 am

Great thread - and a slippery slope these days. I remember making $1500/day as a commercial still photographer back when it actually required skill to load, properly light and expose a piece of 4X5 chrome film with a latitude of about 5 stops. There was a healthy mark-up on the film also - so the more film you shot the more money you made. Ah - the good ol' days!

I would like to say that over the years - I saw a lot of other people getting work that was not as good as what I thought I could do. And what I learned from that is that it is better to get out there and hustle what you have rather than stress over whether what you have is "good enough." Price yourself at a level that coincides with your skill. Also realize that time is not what is being paid for - it's skill level, equipment (including all of your computers and software) and experience.

I am shooting a promo right now that breaks down to $2500/minute. We priced it at a flat fee since it was a county services program and had a set budget. That price includes the editing though - but even so, I think we'll come out ahead on this one. I like to get $125/hour if shooting hourly (again - used to charge $150/hr for stills back in the day!!)

What I find incredible, is that I am now having to shoot full video production to get the same rate I used to get as a still photographer - but that's the trend with technology today. The up side is that there are great cameras and good equipment for less money now than ever, which helps. Thanks Black Magic! 8-)

Tue Nov 20, 2018 8:22 am

I'm right there with you, Alex. I feel the same way. I often feel like I'm not charging what I'm worth. I'm also a perfectionist. I tweak a lot. I'm learning to stop that though.

Adam

Wed Nov 21, 2018 3:25 pm

Thanks for everyone's advice and replies, really useful to heard where you are coming from.

So regarding this job, I went to the Rehab, beautiful place in the mountains, lots of land and facilities. The guys was nice, but I definitely got the impression he wouldn't notice a lot of the details I would care about. We were on the same page and he listened to my ideas. He asked me how much I charge and I said I dont charge a set price, it depends on the project. I said I like to go away and plan a bit, think it through and then quote. He asked for a rough estimate....so I felt obligated to not sound elusive! So I told him the last project I did was an 8 minute promo/short for some singing teachers, and I charged $5000. But I said this was also in exchange for lessons and they were just two people struggling to get by.

I asked him if he had a budget in mind, and he said 100,000 Thai Baht, which is about $3000. I said this was more the kind of rate I might charge a charity or tiny business.

I am now deliberating over sending him a quote. But I need to tomorrow! Now I know he only was thinking $3000, I feel I cant really go in with my original idea which was $5000. They charge clients $6000 for one month of rehab, so if my video gets even a few people to go it pays for itself. These rehabs make a lot of money, they are so expensive!!

So I'm going to sleep on it, and hopefully come up with something I feel comfortable asking for. Maybe $4000. He said there would be more work for me in the future, as if that justified me doing it cheaper! But that just means more cheap work in the future which I dont want.

Any advice very welcome. He is keen to go ahead with it, its as if he has said yes already but I just haven't given the quote!

Wed Nov 21, 2018 3:40 pm

Alex Delfont wrote:So I'm going to sleep on it, and hopefully come up with something I feel comfortable asking for. Maybe $4000. He said there would be more work for me in the future, as if that justified me doing it cheaper! But that just means more cheap work in the future which I dont want.

You're not exactly "just starting out" as a freelancer; you said in your first post that you've been doing this for a few years. When you're starting out, sometimes it's worth taking on lower-paying gigs just to build up your portfolio/showreel and to gain more experience. It sounds like you're beyond that stage, but on the other hand this could lead to similar work for similar clients. You could negotiate up a bit and see if he accepts it.

There is some value in having clients that will provide more work in the future. When I was freelancing I spent an inordinate amount of time trying to get work. When you have a few clients that send you steady work, freelancing becomes a lot more viable than when you're having to hustle to find new work all the time.

For my writing and editing work, I charge a lower hourly rate to some clients who don't have much money but who provide me with frequent jobs, such as a neurobiologist at a university who writes scientific papers for peer-reviewed journals and asks me to edit them (English isn't his first language). I'm also willing to accept slightly lower rates for clients who give me super-interesting work or work that involves travel to places I'd like to go. To some extent that work can be subsidized by full-price clients. This is a common business model, in fact.

I'm not trying to steer you toward one decision or the other, but just adding a few considerations to think about.

Wed Nov 21, 2018 8:16 pm

Alex Delfont wrote:I asked him if he had a budget in mind, and he said 100,000 Thai Baht, which is about $3000. I said this was more the kind of rate I might charge a charity or tiny business.

I am now deliberating over sending him a quote. But I need to tomorrow! Now I know he only was thinking $3000, I feel I cant really go in with my original idea which was $5000. They charge clients $6000 for one month of rehab, so if my video gets even a few people to go it pays for itself. These rehabs make a lot of money, they are so expensive!!

So I'm going to sleep on it, and hopefully come up with something I feel comfortable asking for. Maybe $4000. He said there would be more work for me in the future, as if that justified me doing it cheaper! But that just means more cheap work in the future which I dont want.

Any advice very welcome. He is keen to go ahead with it, its as if he has said yes already but I just haven't given the quote!

Well, I don't think he has only a budget of $3000. It seems more like a tactic to see what you are willing to give for less.

And promises for future work have always been empty promises, don't fall into that trap.

What I'd would do:

Make him a quote with 3 packages. The cheapest one is a bit more expensive than his stated budget, like the $4000 you mentioned. Describe it as the minimum work you will do, like short 2 CEO statements, only available light, some simple establishing and insert shots, 2 minutes runtime and they have to supply all necessary artwork like lower thirds design, intro logo etc. Music is extra payment. No retouching and other post work.

Then a second package at $5000 with some more goodies and better quality.

And a high quality package at $7500 with whatever you think makes it better than the other 2.

If they insist on the route of cheaper work now and future work:
Suggest that they pay for this job full and get a discount afterwards when future jobs are secured.

Wed Nov 21, 2018 8:31 pm

Robert knows his stuff! Definitely $3,000 is a negotiation ploy. A tiered approach is good meeting him halfway at $4,000 as your lowest package. I’d figure out how you can do something to get a start with the client at $4K minimum and a better package estimated to be $6,000 but billed based on actual work. If you give him a firm base of $4K, you need to be clear what that includes and any changes may require additional charges.

I would not talk about future discounts at all. Let him see your results on the first job and then ask if he’d like anything better on the second job.

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Thu Nov 22, 2018 2:05 am

Thanks for the advice everyone. You all must have a lot more confidence than me! It;'s not that I don't think I can do a good job, I'm just not a great business man!

I have been doing it a few years and I have spent my whole life on creative endeavours which obviously helps. But this is my first job for a rehab and there's a quite a few of them here in Thailand. It's important I do this first job right, as in actually creating a good film for them, and also charging the right amount. Because it will mean future work for various other places when they see it.

I think you are right, $4000 will be my minimum. I don't see how I can create tiers or packages unless its based on the video time. But to be honest I find it just as hard to squeeze a lot of info into 3 minutes as I do into 5, maybe harder. This is why I dont understand when people charge by the minute of video.

I can offer my own music which I would compose and record specifically for the video for an extra $500 maybe.

I might say to him that my original intention was to quote $6000 which is what they charge clients per month, and that I was a bit surprised when he mentioned he only wanted to pay $3000, as that was low by most peoples standards. And I'll say that if my film gets a few people to sign up then its paid for itself, and I imagine it will do much more than that. But I'll say as its the first job for them I will meet in the middle, as a sort of tester. And if he is happy and wants me to work more for him, I will have to charge more next time.

I feel if I go in cheap now, then its going to be really hard to up the price when he wants more work. So maybe its a good idea to say something like this? Or is there any reason you wouldn't do this?

God I need a shrewd manager or something, I worry too much

Thu Nov 22, 2018 5:27 am

Alex, please do not use that train of thought you suggested in why you were thinking the price should be $6,000. That may well be part of your rationale but don’t use that. They charge what they think is warranted and you must do the same based on your business model, not theirs. Just stick to what you need and the effort and added value you can bring to the project and how much you hope to build an ongoing business relationship. Just keep your thoughts on your business and never discuss their business in those terms. I think you’ll do well.

But don’t be afraid to let it go either. Sometimes you have to walk away and a good client will come back to you. You might lose this shoot, they get someone else for $3,000 and in a month they call you because they didn’t like the person and didn’t like their work. Relax.

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Thu Nov 22, 2018 8:42 am

Thanks Rick

Yeah you are right. I wasn't actually going to say 'I'm charging this because you charge that'. But I was going to mention regardless of my price that if the video gets a few people to come then its paid for itself. But I didn't end up saying it. I dont think its bad to remind someone of the value of such a thing, even if it's only in the digital realm!

I've sent him an email, I said $4300 is my baseline. I said $4600 if I do the music too. Normally I imagine you would spend much much more for someone to compose and record music specifically for something like this. Luckily its the part I enjoy the most, and I find the vast majority of stock music is so cheesy and awful.

Lets see what he says! Thanks again for all the advice. Hopefully after this project I'll gain more confidence in this area

Thu Nov 22, 2018 10:12 am

Alex Delfont wrote:Thanks for the advice everyone. You all must have a lot more confidence than me! It;'s not that I don't think I can do a good job, I'm just not a great business man!

What I do before business negotiations: I do try to imagine the meeting, what they will say and what I will answer. This is kind of a mind training session and preparation.

You have to find out why they want to make a video and then have the answers to their needs and even some more answers to their needs they even didn't know they have. Show them the benefits and what you can do for them to make more profit.

Give them some further ideas what could be done as an addon. Make your offer modular, so they have some positions they can throw overboard to save money. People love to save money - put them into the position to do that (even if that position in your offer made no big deal). Give them a small position which doesn't mean much work for you as a discount/bonus, so they feel they will get more out of it.

Alex Delfont wrote:I think you are right, $4000 will be my minimum. I don't see how I can create tiers or packages unless its based on the video time. But to be honest I find it just as hard to squeeze a lot of info into 3 minutes as I do into 5, maybe harder. This is why I dont understand when people charge by the minute of video.

Well, the art and science of squeezing lots of info into less time is what makes it more expensive. I find it always amusing when clients tell me it is just a short video and some fast cuts so I shouldn't have so much work to do and therefor it should be cheaper...
The shorter the cuts, the more I have to shoot and the more I have to tweak in the editing.

Or clients tell me to take less care on the result because it is only for Facebook.
Then I ask them where I should take less care: wobbly camera? inaudible interviews? pale/yellow/green faces/skintones? no light where everyone looks ugly? elevator music? no audio mixing? no editing out of ahems, stuttering, repetitions and wrong grammar? no care with the edit?
I always earn silence and then "ok, better do it the right way". Because people have egos and want to look great in camera. They just don't realize that it takes a lot of work to make them look good in any way.

Thu Nov 22, 2018 10:16 am

Alex Delfont wrote:I might say to him that my original intention was to quote $6000 which is what they charge clients per month, and that I was a bit surprised when he mentioned he only wanted to pay $3000, as that was low by most peoples standards. And I'll say that if my film gets a few people to sign up then its paid for itself, and I imagine it will do much more than that. But I'll say as its the first job for them I will meet in the middle, as a sort of tester. And if he is happy and wants me to work more for him, I will have to charge more next time.

Don't do that. If you are willing to do for less for the first job, why should they pay more later?
You are devaluating yourself.

If they can't afford or don't want to budget higher, then they get less. Give them options to save money by getting rid of some extra things (be creative).
They might even be willing to pay for the extra things if they feel it is worth it. And if not, you are not loosing anything.

Sat Nov 24, 2018 2:34 am

Thanks everyone, and Robert thanks for the advice. You are certainly a bit more hard than I am, probably from years of experience. I've always been a bit of a worried anxious person so I tend to let that get in the way of the right decisions.

Anyway, I emailed him and said that my absolute baseline was $4200 (the equivalent in Thai Baht). I said I would do the music too for $4600.

He said it was more than they had budgeted for but he said yes and that he would trust me! So I'm happy with that amount, and I hope I can do a good job now. I was going through some stock music sites today to see whats on offer, theres a lot of terrible music! I'm sure there is some good stuff too, but mostly not subtle enough for my taste. I also think if you write the music specifically for something of course its going to be more fitting.

I start in one week. Now I'm just trying to work out where to interview everyone! Thailand is a nightmare as its so noisy everywhere and the sun is so bright and intense. I use a 6 stop VND but its not enough, so hopefully my 10 stop fixed ND will come and help matters!

Thanks again everyone, really helped me

Sat Nov 24, 2018 4:40 am

Congrats Alex on the job win!

I am trying to break in to this a bit.. in my older age while I have been building up some gear. Still have a few things to get! My day job currently eats up almost all my time so I dont know where to being. I know I need some "free" work to start some sort of portfolio/demo reel right? I might have an opportunity to shoot a dance recital, not sure yet. Someone pointed out recording school plays and such can be a lawsuit waiting to happen.. so not really sure what to do about that.. can i record it and give the video away and that is ok.. so i can add it to my showreel.. though a stationary short clip from a play cant be worth while to put in a demo reel could it? If even allowed.

Some of you said we should not be called videographers.. what then is the right work to use? I assumed that was what we were called.

Alex, what sort of gear do you use if you dont mind sharing?

Sat Nov 24, 2018 6:42 am

Justin, I’ve asked about opportunities too. I attend large dance recitals where they now forbid any video cameras except their own. Same restrictions at the secondary school the girls attended. You may have local family oriented festivals that the public attends and generally no one would stop you from recording sessions, but they don’t sanction anyone to do that on their behalf. We live in a complicated world now. It’s sad but it’s the only world we have. And there are still opportunities you’ll find.

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Sat Nov 24, 2018 6:44 am

Congratulations, Alex! Remember that renowned philosopher Alfred E Newman who offered his guiding principle more than once, “What, me worry?”

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Sat Nov 24, 2018 6:47 am

Yes, children are very protected now. You can not video or photograph them at official school functions or other organized youth events. You would need to secure each parents permission in advance. Our local TV station used to record the. Idle School talent concert, but we could not broadcast it, we just gave the parents and school copies. Yiu need to be careful what you record. Public events like parades or their community events are useually OK, but you need to ask in advance.
Cheers

Sat Nov 24, 2018 7:49 am

Thanks everyone

In reply to your questions Justin... I normally say filmmaker rather than videographer and refer to projects as films not videos. I do think the word filmmaker is used far too liberally now with every youtube saying they are a filmmaker. I personally dont see myself as a filmmaker and I feel that term should be reserved for people who make films! Not for the kind of short promo type work I do. But, I use it because as everyone else said, I dont want to say videographer!

I use a Panasonic GH5 and have a G85 as a Bcam. I plan on getting the BMPCC4k when they get some in stock, Ive lurked on this forums for so long learning about Blackmagic cameras! The lenses I use are Lumix 12-35 2.8, Nocticron 42.5mm 1.2, Mitakon 25mm 0.95 and Lumix 20mm 1.7.

I personally do not like the 12-35 and I think the only reason people always recommend it is because its reasonably priced and practical. To me it has no character and it's not fast enough. I love the 42.5 1.2 though. I think at some point I will make the move to Voigtlander primes, as I love my cheap Mitakon copy, and manual focus is really useful.

I do sometimes get frustrated trying to get shallower DOF on MFT lenses, and also in low light its not good. I also take a lot of photographs and it cant really compete with full Frame for that. But the main thing is I travel a lot, and I can fit all my kit in a shoulder bag which I can take on flights normally as well as my rucksack. You cant have it all! And I think when I get the BMPCC4k the low light will be great, and it will look nicer all round.

It depends what you want to do for work, but you can make a showreel with anything. So many people on youtube and Vimeo who have huge followings only make videos with broll, just a montage basically. Its the easiest way to get some practise too without the puzzle of weaving interviews etc together. I'd just go out in a big city and shoot some stuff, you have to be a bit bold if you want to get good shots, but you won't see most people again!

I started by doing work for a non profit community I was living at, so there was no pressure. Also I literally had no idea what I was doing, I had a Lumix G3 and 20mm lens, I put it on auto and ended up shooting a 15 minute promo/mini doc. Looking back there was so much wrong with it, but I think for a first ever video the actual filming and editing was pretty good.

Good luck

Sat Nov 24, 2018 9:10 am

Alex Delfont wrote:Thanks everyone, and Robert thanks for the advice. You are certainly a bit more hard than I am, probably from years of experience. I've always been a bit of a worried anxious person so I tend to let that get in the way of the right decisions.

Anyway, I emailed him and said that my absolute baseline was $4200 (the equivalent in Thai Baht). I said I would do the music too for $4600.

He said it was more than they had budgeted for but he said yes and that he would trust me! So I'm happy with that amount, and I hope I can do a good job now. I was going through some stock music sites today to see whats on offer, theres a lot of terrible music! I'm sure there is some good stuff too, but mostly not subtle enough for my taste. I also think if you write the music specifically for something of course its going to be more fitting.

Thanks again everyone, really helped me

Congratulations! :-)

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