Media for 4.6k 60p Blackmagic RAW on Ursa Mini Pro

Before Blackmagic RAW, I heard that 4.6k 60p raw on the Ursa Mini Pro was only possible when recording to two cfast cards simultaneously. Has that changed with with the introduction of Blackmagic RAW? Is it just a matter of finding cards with the proper write speeds, or does the camera limit what is possible depending on what media type is selected. What writes speeds and media are required? Are there SD cards that are fast enough and can be used for this?

[Tim Schumann]

What you say about needing to record 4.6K at 60p in dual card when shooting RAW is not really the case and is a common mis-understanding.

You have been able to record at 4.6K Cinema DNG RAW in 3:1 or 4:1 up to 60 frames per second to a single CFast card since we released the URSA Mini 4.6K. There are lots of cards that can achieve this data rate. It was only in 4.6K Lossless RAW that most cards max out at around 35 or 40 frames per second and so require dual card. This is due to the data rate required for 'Lossless RAW'.

Now that we have Blackmagic RAW and many more compression options the data rates required for media are much less limiting. We have just published our latest list of CFast cards that are approved for 4.6K Blackmagic RAW at 3:1 up to 60 frames per second here. Any of the cards on this list will not only be able to record at that rate to a single card but should be able to do so indefinitely until the card is full.

Fast SSD's and the faster UHS-II cards on our certified lists will also be able to record at 4.6K Blackmagic RAW up to 60p as well. You may need to vary the compression level slightly to reach the frame rate you require.

If you want to test your card's speeds simply set the frame rate, compression and resolution that you would like to achieve, set 'stop rec if card drops frames' to 'on' and do some long recordings with the camera pointing at content that is similar to what you would like to shoot. If the recording stops you know that that the data rate is maxing out on the card.

Regardless, we would still recommend choosing a card (whether it be SD, CFast or SSD) that is on our recommended list for that camera as we thoroughly test the cards for not just sustained recording and formatting repeatedly in our camera but we do lots of other tests as well to stress test the card and ensure that card works very solid on our system.

We haven't certified media for Q0 recording as this data rate will vary a lot depending on the type of content you are shooting. If you would like to shoot at that rate the method I mentioned above is recommended to test the scenario.

That’s great to hear. Thanks for your super thorough reply. Unfortunately I can’t test at the moment because I have just ordered my camera and i’m trying to figure out what media to buy. From what I have seen, 8:1 and 12:1 BRAW will work just fine for my needs. Do you happen to know what data rates 4.6k 60p BRAW is in 8:1 and 12:1 ?

[Tim Schumann]

Yes I do.

4.6K (4608 x 2592) Blackmagic RAW 8:1 at 60p is around 136MB/s
4.6K (4608 x 2592) Blackmagic RAW 12:1 at 60p is around 92MB/s

Don't trust the numbers that are claimed for the media though... the numbers listed are often peak rates and not sustained max data rates.

For what it's worth I've been getting dropped frames shooting 4.6k 60p BRAW 12:1 on my UMP with Angelbird 128GB 300MB/S cards. Luckily just playing around testing it out in the sunshine and not on a job but I was surprised based on the below. Usually towards the end of a recording - so after a few minutes of rolling. I formatted several times to be sure and had similar issues each time.

For what it's worth I've been getting dropped frames shooting 4.6k 60p BRAW 12:1 on my UMP with Angelbird 128GB 300MB/S cards. Luckily just playing around testing it out in the sunshine and not on a job but I was surprised based on the below. Usually towards the end of a recording - so after a few minutes of rolling. I formatted several times to be sure and had similar issues each time.

I'd recommend contacting Angelbird support regarding this issue. Normally they will try to investigate and solve those kind of problems.

[Tim Schumann]

For what it's worth I've been getting dropped frames shooting 4.6k 60p BRAW 12:1 on my UMP with Angelbird 128GB 300MB/S cards. Luckily just playing around testing it out in the sunshine and not on a job but I was surprised based on the below. Usually towards the end of a recording - so after a few minutes of rolling. I formatted several times to be sure and had similar issues each time.

That is a UHS-II SD card.

Our current list of certified SD cards on the Pro are speed tested for 4K DCI Blackmagic RAW 12:1 at 30 frames per second which requires a sustained write speed of around 34MB/s.

The format you are shooting in 4.6K Blackmagic RAW 12:1 at 60 frames requires a sustained write speed of around 92MB/s.

Other words, you need to use a CFast card for 4.6k at 60fps.
Cheers

That is a UHS-II SD card.

Our current list of certified SD cards on the Pro are speed tested for 4K DCI Blackmagic RAW 12:1 at 30 frames per second which requires a sustained write speed of around 34MB/s.

The format you are shooting in 4.6K Blackmagic RAW 12:1 at 60 frames requires a sustained write speed of around 92MB/s.

Thanks Tim. I guess I saw the 92MB/s and assumed, incorrectly, that the 300MB/s of the Angelbird SD would be sufficient. They're advertised on CVP as having a sustained write speed of 260 MB/s. Shouldn't this be sufficient for 60fps 12:1 BRAW at 4.6k? Perhaps the retailer means max write speed and is incorrectly using the term 'sustained'. That does seem a surprisingly high drop - around 168MB/s less than the advertised max write speed unless I'm completely misreading how SD cards and data transfers work?

Edit: Even on the Angelbird site they're advertised as having a sustained speed of 245 MB/s (*Speed based on internal testing. Actual transfer rates and capacity may vary depending on system hardware and other factors.*)

I do love the form factor of SD cards - if anyone comes up with an SD card that can go the distance on BRAW 4.6k 60fps 12:1 I'd be their newest committed customer!

Thanks Tim. I guess I saw the 92MB/s and assumed, incorrectly, that the 300MB/s of the Angelbird SD would be sufficient. They're advertised on CVP as having a sustained write speed of 260 MB/s. Shouldn't this be sufficient for 60fps 12:1 BRAW at 4.6k? Perhaps the retailer means max write speed and is incorrectly using the term 'sustained'. That does seem a surprisingly high drop - around 168MB/s less than the advertised max write speed unless I'm completely misreading how SD cards and data transfers work?

Edit: Even on the Angelbird site they're advertised as having a sustained speed of 245 MB/s (*Speed based on internal testing. Actual transfer rates and capacity may vary depending on system hardware and other factors.*)

I do love the form factor of SD cards - if anyone comes up with an SD card that can go the distance on BRAW 4.6k 60fps 12:1 I'd be their newest committed customer!

I write it again:
I'd recommend contacting Angelbird support regarding this issue. Normally they will try to investigate and solve those kind of problems.

Thanks Tim. I guess I saw the 92MB/s and assumed, incorrectly, that the 300MB/s of the Angelbird SD would be sufficient. They're advertised on CVP as having a sustained write speed of 260 MB/s. Shouldn't this be sufficient for 60fps 12:1 BRAW at 4.6k? Perhaps the retailer means max write speed and is incorrectly using the term 'sustained'. That does seem a surprisingly high drop - around 168MB/s less than the advertised max write speed unless I'm completely misreading how SD cards and data transfers work?

Edit: Even on the Angelbird site they're advertised as having a sustained speed of 245 MB/s (*Speed based on internal testing. Actual transfer rates and capacity may vary depending on system hardware and other factors.*)

I do love the form factor of SD cards - if anyone comes up with an SD card that can go the distance on BRAW 4.6k 60fps 12:1 I'd be their newest committed customer!

I write it again:
I'd recommend contacting Angelbird support regarding this issue. Normally they will try to investigate and solve those kind of problems.

Thanks Robert. I saw your first post but am not sure, based on Tim's message, whether there's an issue that needs resolving with AngelBird. If the cards are only tested and 'approved' by Blackmagic at 4K DCI 30fps in BRAW 12:1, then that's all they're tested for and there may be another issue (aside from sustained write speed) that prevents recording on SD at 4.6K 60fps BRAW 12:1

Edward, Angelbird is a company from my country, so I had the opportunity to talk to them and I had also organized a group buy here on the forum. Through this I had direct contact with the company owner Roman. In our talk he told me that they are trying to optimize their cards for each camera type (signal timing, controller programming). Flash media are far more complex than people think. It is possible to update the firmware of flash media but this can't be done by an end user, the flash media has to be sent to Angelbird for doing this.
So it could be that either your SD cards are not behaving like expected because of a hardware problem, or maybe of a firmware version not working well along with the UMP and BRAW.

That is the reason I wrote you should contact their support team, they might be able to help because on paper the SD card should be more than capable of writing BRAW.

Edward, Angelbird is a company from my country, so I had the opportunity to talk to them and I had also organized a group buy here on the forum. Through this I had direct contact with the company owner Roman. In our talk he told me that they are trying to optimize their cards for each camera type (signal timing, controller programming). Flash media are far more complex than people think. It is possible to update the firmware of flash media but this can't be done by an end user, the flash media has to be sent to Angelbird for doing this.
So it could be that either your SD cards are not behaving like expected because of a hardware problem, or maybe of a firmware version not working well along with the UMP and BRAW.

That is the reason I wrote you should contact their support team, they might be able to help because on paper the SD card should be more than capable of writing BRAW.

That's interesting to hear, thanks Robert. I'll investigate. As I mentioned up thread I had assumed they would do the job so was surprised when they didn't but assumed, based on the stance from BMD, that as they're not tested there are no guarantees! Good to know that they may work with some tinkering after all. Will get in touch and report back in case any others have this issue.

Just an update on this - I spoke/am speaking to Angelbird who are suggesting that BMRaw isn't something they recommend recording on SD cards. That's fairly disappointing.


"sorry for the late reply. Our engineers were checking the issue you reported and were able to reproduce it on our SD cards as well as on other brand cards. While our SD cards do allow write speeds of up to 240MB/s continuously, the access pattern of Blackmagic RAW seems to be different - and more suited for CFast cards than SD cards."

They've asked me to do a few tests which I'll do but from their wording I'm not sure whether it means they'll be able to do any firmware updates or if it's just a case of getting CFast cards which would certainly be an expensive shame.

Edward, have you (or anyone else) tried the Wise SDXC cards at 12:1 60 fps?


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Edward, have you (or anyone else) tried the Wise SDXC cards at 12:1 60 fps?

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Hi Rick, No, I haven't yet - I'll see if I can pick one up and then I'll test and report back.

Only had my existing Sandisk Extreme Pro 95mbs cards (a lot of 128gb cards) and then these two new 300mbps Angelbird ones. Don't wildly want to keep buying cards until something sticks but we'll see what happens!

I know the recent top Wise cards (up to 285MB/s) may not be able to handle the highest 60p bitrates, but I’m hopeful they can do Q5 and 8:1/12:1 at 60 fps. Thanks for trying. I have the 128GB card but no BRAW Camera... yet.


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FWIW, we're not bothering with 12:1 simply because Q5 has a better overall image and a similar average data rate. You'll get an average of 40 minutes on a 64 GB SD card depending on the material.

And the Sandisk 95 MBs have been rock solid with 24/60p.

FWIW, we're not bothering with 12:1 simply because Q5 has a better overall image and a similar average data rate. You'll get an average of 40 minutes on a 64 GB SD card depending on the material.

And the Sandisk 95 MBs have been rock solid with 24/60p.

Presume this is 1080p right? You're not shooting Q5 60p BRaw at 4/4.6k on the Sandisk UHS-I cards are you?

You're not shooting Q5 60p BRaw at 4/4.6k on the Sandisk UHS-I cards are you?

Sure we are. The basic SanDisk V30 95 MBs will record Q5 24/60p UHD all day long without a hiccup.

The only caveat being we don't shoot long format - ie conferences or soccer games - so I can't say that it would handle 20 minutes of continuous 4k 60p but it hasn't had an issue with anything we've thrown at it so far.

Q5 is kind of sweetspot to me. I've shot 3 projects with it so far and another tonight. There's a quality to it that just looks beautiful and It edits so smoothly and effortlessly.

After shooting with them for a few months now, exclusively in ProRes HQ and cutting FCP, the last couple of projects were shot in Braw on new SLR Magic Hyper Primes and cut in Resolve the the look is just next level.

You're not shooting Q5 60p BRaw at 4/4.6k on the Sandisk UHS-I cards are you?

Sure we are. The basic SanDisk V30 95 MBs will record Q5 24/60p UHD all day long without a hiccup.

Guh - gotta say I'm feeling a bit short changed by CVP for upselling the expensive Angelbird cards as I have about 50 of those SanDisks... Still my own fault for not testing and just assuming. But that to me makes it even more confusing why I can't do the same on the Angelbirds unless they're configured wrongly or just faulty cards.

Will do some tests over the weekend on Q5 - thanks!

Did some Q5 tests this week. Seems to work fine - not sure what the tradeoff in terms of quality is yet.
Also I got sent a replacement set of cards by Angelbird. Similar issues with higher than 12:1 but at least 12:1 BRAW 4.6K 60fps now seems to work based on 20 minutes of recording just now. Guess I'll pick up some CFast 2.0 at some stage. At £900 per 1TB I'll need to psych myself up a little!

Q5 4.6K didn't go the distance today on these Angelbird SD cards. I was shooting a mix of 24 and 48fps.

I noticed dropped frames so changed down to UHD 24 / 48. Still dropped frames.

Changed down to 2K 24/48 - still dropped frames.

Even getting drops at 1080p 24 / 48fps.

Tried multiple cards, same issue. Could be something with the camera I guess. Will add some CFast to the shopping list and see what sticks.