Is 8K ok?

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Jamie LeJeune

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Re: Is 8K ok?

PostThu Jan 10, 2019 3:31 am

You are not alone.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: Is 8K ok?

PostThu Jan 10, 2019 3:52 am

You seem very alone there? :)
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Wayne Steven

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Re: Is 8K ok?

PostThu Jan 10, 2019 4:02 am

I am going to point out and exciting possibility. People that know about sensors know about binning. If this uses a quad Bayer Sony 8k sensor, then in low light, or 4k mode, you can bin the four subpixels of the same color together to form a quasi 4.5 micron pixel. However, unbinned individually you can shift 4k delivery pixels diagonally by one sensor pixel for better color in normal light (giving all sub pixel primaries beneath a delivery pixel).
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Peter J. DeCrescenzo

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Re: Is 8K ok?

PostThu Jan 10, 2019 2:09 pm

timbutt2 wrote:Am I the only person who doesn’t care for 8K at all? It just doesn’t excite me. Am I alone on this feeling?


You are not alone.

I'm holding out for 16K! :-)

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Wayne Steven

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Re: Is 8K ok?

PostThu Jan 10, 2019 4:06 pm

Well, wasn't that guy from Panavision talking about 32k? :)

I kid you not today. I looked up a 8k display on line, and it had a 4k and an 8k graphic patches, and what looked like the letters BS with them which reminded me of what some of you guys think.
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Re: Is 8K ok?

PostThu Jan 10, 2019 4:35 pm

Looks like one of the first phones with that Sony 8k chip (48mp) is going be $150. Of course it doesn't have an 8k video mode, and likely will use quad bayer binning to film 4k with 1.6 micron combined pixels. I expect that chip set to not even be able to load in that much at video rates (video rates are further constrained by how much they can handle separately from the load speed).

https://m.gsmarena.com/redmi_note_7_off ... -35006.php
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Re: Is 8K ok?

PostSun Jan 13, 2019 1:21 pm

I've become aware in recent times, there are people saying the Pocket 4k sensor is actually an 8k quad bayer sensor binned, and that the sharp is it unbinned. That there is a Sony leak out there about it (haven't found it).

Certainly would make the Pocket much better to take 8k photos.

Somebody talking about it here, somebody else seems to be saying it's a version of that sensor (instead?).

https://www.eoshd.com/comments/topic/28 ... 43-camera/
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rick.lang

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Re: Is 8K ok?

PostSun Jan 13, 2019 2:54 pm

From androidlad:

https://www.eoshd.com/comments/uploads/ ... 86db5b.jpg

Well that is interesting if true. But I would think unlocking it to function as 8K capture would require an awfully good lens that can resolve 8K with photosites about 1.16 microns!


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Re: Is 8K ok?

PostSun Jan 13, 2019 3:46 pm

Shouldn't the pixels be over 2 microns?

What they are saying elsewhere, is that the extra resolution, more fully renders the beauty characteristics. I have a document here that summarises some good research into the visual experience and perception of realism and and immersion, of resolution and field of view. It's interesting in how it maps to 2k, 4k and 8k in it's points. A lot of objections come from not picking slithers of research, yet people perceive 8k as better. I still think it is more an extra special format in delivery video, which you use for special projects. In photography I think 8k and even "32k" is important for the eye level poster, to yield 2k or more at eye level. In filming 8k and above is good for post effects, but also in delivering better 4k delivery. I wonder his much if this extra reality simply is because Bayer sensors are so lousy at delivering 4k, that 8k gives extra sharpness to detail. But I don't know how they did these tests, and if that was accommodated.
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Re: Is 8K ok?

PostSun Jan 13, 2019 3:56 pm

Anyway, I'm taking that as rumor (though the sensor latitude seems to add up). But fun. Maybe when Braw comes delayed yo Nab, we will get 8k. I'm joking, but if those s was true, who knows. Then there will be another gold rush on the cameras, nicely extending the pockets high production run, instead of it peaking at once and people waiting 6 months to get a camera.

I'm going say this again about the pocket 4k, more dynamic range and more colour vole like the Alexa. I'm serious about that camera being a visually minimum standard to aim at
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rick.lang

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Re: Is 8K ok?

PostSun Jan 13, 2019 4:08 pm

Oops, Wayne is right. If it’s really an 8K sensor, the photosites are about 2.315 microns, not 1.16. Too sleepy when I posted that!


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Re: Is 8K ok?

PostSun Jan 13, 2019 4:48 pm

That's ok Rick.

I'm interested in finding out about this refraction interplay in small pixels. I was planning to calculate many aberrations out? At over two microns it shouldn't be too bad. I actually did an interesting calculation sometime ago on possible influences in pixels based on size. 6.4 microns is fine, but yo completely negate effects was a huge pixel sometjing like many times that size.
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rick.lang

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Re: Is 8K ok?

PostSun Jan 13, 2019 6:46 pm

Certainly I think smaller photosites may show aberrations more readily than larger pixels. But with so much correction performed in camera these days, it may not always show on the recorded image. Digital imagery can have some advantages over traditional film in that respect due to in camera processing.

I often wondered why BMD never confirmed any of my posts when I’d say from day one that the BMPCC4K photosites were 4.63 microns. You know always nice to have some courteous confirmation. But it would appear now that they never publicly confirmed that because possibly I was wrong all along.

Now I’m just speculating because I don’t really know what’s happening behind the scenes, but I can’t help but wonder if this is why the camera sensor has dual native ISO. If four photosites are ‘added’ together, it could result in an effective ISO 3200 with more noise; if four photosites are ‘averaged’ together, it could result in ISO 400 with a cleaner image.


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Re: Is 8K ok?

PostSun Jan 13, 2019 6:54 pm

I do not think getting a clean 8K readout is going to be the problem, especially on a larger sensor. Nikon is already getting very clean 6K readout on their Z6 camera, and down converting it to 4K for a very clean looking image, even at higher ISOs. So time will tell, and yes, 8K Full Frame will come one day, perhaps not tomorrow, but soon... :roll:
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Rakesh Malik

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Re: Is 8K ok?

PostSun Jan 13, 2019 7:18 pm

rick.lang wrote:I often wondered why BMD never confirmed any of my posts when I’d say from day one that the BMPCC4K photosites were 4.63 microns. You know always nice to have some courteous confirmation. But it would appear now that they never publicly confirmed that because possibly I was wrong all along.


It's probably partly due to being proprietary business information. It might not be quite the same sensor that everyone has been saying it is; it might be a newer one, and it might also be a semi-custom design (BMD could for example have specified the pattern and dyes for the color filter array).

Now I’m just speculating because I don’t really know what’s happening behind the scenes, but I can’t help but wonder if this is why the camera sensor has dual native ISO. If four photosites are ‘added’ together, it could result in an effective ISO 3200 with more noise; if four photosites are ‘averaged’ together, it could result in ISO 400 with a cleaner image.


My guess is that it's a semi-custom Sony sensor using back-side illumination with a BMD specified color filter array pattern and dyes. I'm guessing that it's using a approach similar to what Panasonic uses with its Varicam sensor, where it has a dedicated analog gain stage for each of the two native ISOs.

But that's just a guess based on the common theory that the Pocket4K is based on a Sony sensor, the fact that Sony does that sort of custom work for other customers (Phase One, Hasselblad, Fujifilm for example), and the fact that Sony has migrated BSI all the way to its medium format sensors now, so it's obviously able to do BSI on pretty much any sensor it wants to at this stage.

BSI improves a sensor's light gathering ability quite a bit, so it allows for higher dynamic range with smaller photosites. In turn that also means that one option is to keep the photosites at the same time, but use more saturated dyes, since more saturated dyes also compromise light gathering ability. The up side is that the more saturated dyes improve the color separation between adjacent photo sites, which makes the recorded color cleaner. Since color quality is obviously more important to BMD than resolution (which is IMO a good choice), it would be a reasonable tradeoff for BMD.

But that's just a theory.
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Re: Is 8K ok?

PostSun Jan 13, 2019 8:09 pm

Denny Smith wrote:I do not think getting a clean 8K readout is going to be the problem, especially on a larger sensor. Nikon is already getting very clean 6K readout on their Z6 camera, and down converting it to 4K for a very clean looking image, even at higher ISOs. So time will tell, and yes, 8K Full Frame will come one day, perhaps not tomorrow, but soon... :roll:
Cheers


Not according to this test https://translate.google.nl/translate?hl=nl&tab=wT&sl=de&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.slashcam.de%2F4K-Kamera-Vergleich-cmd-i-view-u-what-i-detail-u-lang-i-de-u-id-i-69-u-name-i-Nikon_Z6.html, looks like they still have some work to do on the de-bayering front.
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Re: Is 8K ok?

PostSun Jan 13, 2019 11:01 pm

One major disappointment I have seen in test samples from the new pocket, is the consumer Sony yellow tint. As far as I understand Arri, or Dalsa, use sensor colour filter overlap, to more properly detect the missing primaries at photo sites in their colour science. So their images and colours are more defined.
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Re: Is 8K ok?

PostSun Jan 13, 2019 11:21 pm

You know, the pocket still gives great benefits in its sensor, but I had been hoping o see an 4k version of their mini 4.6k technology, for the great colour. The low light performance I think was reasonable for setup scripted performance and OK for a lot of situations. I think I miss that the most. If only the pocket had that sort of performance, low light and lower heat, it would be great. The micron patents on their low heat hugh speed processes, which Sony uses, must be getting closer to running out, and some of the preliminary tech might be closer. Then Fairchild or whoever, could try to do similar on their sensors. Actually, the Micron sensor division was from a bought in company, so some stuff might already be out of the patent cycle. Micron itself made the leaos by especially designing the chip material in the foundry process for this, where a lit if companies struggled. But, you are still not getting the back of sensor pricesding array Sony BSI uses. Still, imagine if we had pocket 4k version when the 4.6k cane out, but alas it wasn't going to be. Still, a liquid coolant face plate, is that feasible with optical shifts etc, or extra thin substrate with liquid coolant layer at the back, nervously waiting for a a melt down if anything goes wrong with the cooling system. :(
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Ulysses Paiva

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Re: Is 8K ok?

PostMon Jan 14, 2019 1:26 pm

timbutt2 wrote:Am I the only person who doesn’t care for 8K at all? It just doesn’t excite me. Am I alone on this feeling?


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Wayne Steven

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Re: Is 8K ok?

PostMon Jan 14, 2019 2:30 pm

How many millions will want?
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