Canon CN-E Lenses on BMD Mini Pro 4.6K

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Jryskamp93

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Canon CN-E Lenses on BMD Mini Pro 4.6K

PostMon Dec 10, 2018 5:20 pm

Hello Blackmagic Community,

I work with a church in Maryland and we are looking to have four cameras to use in our weekend experience. We've already purchased on UMP 4.6K and we're really loving it with the canon L series glass. The picture looks great but adjusting the picture is a challenge, especially when we're working with a volunteer team. We're looking to make it as easy as possible to adjust focus and zoom (the rest of the settings will be locked in).

I'm looking for advice from this community about two lenses:
    Canon CN-E 18-80 T4.4 Compact-Servo Cine Zoom Lens
    Canon CN-E 70-200 T4.4 Compact-Servo Cine Zoom Lens
Do they allow for autofocus and powered zoom on an UMP 4.6K? We're trying to avoid using the URSA broadcast since the sensor is smaller and b4 lenses cost an arm and a leg.

We're hoping to have all the cameras installed prior to Christmas Eve services this year and would greatly appreciate some quick responses and recommendations.
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Denny Smith

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Re: Canon CN-E Lenses on BMD Mini Pro 4.6K

PostMon Dec 10, 2018 5:40 pm

You really should be asking this question directly to your BM Regional Support office. When theses lenses first came out, there was an issue using them in thr Ursa Mini. That said, these (Canon CN-E) are $4500 lenses. You can get the BM B4 Mount for UM Pro, and getmused ENF B4 zooms for around $3K.
Cheers
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
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Jryskamp93

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Re: Canon CN-E Lenses on BMD Mini Pro 4.6K

PostMon Dec 10, 2018 7:03 pm

Denny Smith wrote:You really should be asking this question directly to your BM Regional Support office. When theses lenses first came out, there was an issue using them in thr Ursa Mini. That said, these (Canon CN-E) are $4500 lenses. You can get the BM B4 Mount for UM Pro, and getmused ENF B4 zooms for around $3K.
Cheers


Thanks for your response, Denny. I’ve contacted BM Support and they wouldn’t make a recommendation or render an opinion on lens selections for the camera. They said, “we are unable to test every lense by every manufacturer” and suggested I just contact a supplier (who I haven’t had luck with either).

The biggest issue were discovering right now is a lot of B4 lenses are unable to reach the 60’-75’ we need from the back to the front of our worship center. Many of the lenses that would be able to do that are $10K+.

What other recommendations or advice will this community be able to share? Are there other lenses out there that can do autofocus and powered zoom on the UMP 4.6K?
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Tim Schumann

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Re: Canon CN-E Lenses on BMD Mini Pro 4.6K

PostMon Dec 10, 2018 7:25 pm

Sorry that info is incorrect... Both of those lenses work with URSA Mini and Mini Pro.

These have been tested thoroughly and we specifically implemented support for the 18-80mm in our Camera 4.4 update because Canon changed protocols with these lenses. So 4.4 or above will work with it. The 70-200mm T4.4 uses the same protocol so this also works. Focus, iris and zoom can all be controlled from the camera and ATEM Software Control.

Hope this helps.
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rick.lang

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Canon CN-E Lenses on BMD Mini Pro 4.6K

PostMon Dec 10, 2018 8:03 pm

Jryskamp93 wrote: ...The biggest issue were discovering right now is a lot of B4 lenses are unable to reach the 60’-75’ we need from the back to the front of our worship center. Many of the lenses that would be able to do that are $10K+.


You’ve left this investigation awfully late! You don’t have anytime to find used deals on the internet since you need to walk into a store and buy in a day.

Don’t waste anytime on the B4 option if you don’t think they can give you the reach you need at 60-75’. That’s the range I work with frequently with my Fujinon HA20x7.8B M10 Cine Zoom with a B4 Mount. You would need to go to around 100mm focal lengths shooting HD windowed for closeups and perhaps 20mm for your wide shots.


If you had the time and budget, I’d pickup the new Fujinon MK 18-55 and 50-135 zooms and use them on the Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K mFT mount. You could have a system in place for Easter. Less money than you plan to spend on the URSA Mini Pro cameras and Canon CN-E zooms.

Best of luck to you.


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Rick Lang
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Denny Smith

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Re: Canon CN-E Lenses on BMD Mini Pro 4.6K

PostTue Dec 11, 2018 2:35 am

Jryskamp93 wrote: ...The biggest issue were discovering right now is a lot of B4 lenses are unable to reach the 60’-75’ we need from the back to the front of our worship center. Many of the lenses that would be able to do that are $10K+.


Not true, when you use a B4 lens on the UM Pro, you are shooting in a window HD frame slightly larger than a 2/3rds Video CCD, or a S16 size frame in 2K. Not the full 4.6K S35mm sensor gate size. Most ENG zooms go out to 160mm on the long end without the 2X tele Converter. At 2K window, you are going to get a 5.5-foot by 3-foot field of view coverage with 160mm at 75-feet Camera to subject distance, even tighter with the HD window. You better have a real solid oversized tripod, or you will get a lot of camera shake at those long end focal lengths to get a head and shoulder **** at 75-feet.

You can get and download a iOS app called pCAM that will give you the area coverage of most camera formats at any given focal length lens.
Cheers
Last edited by Denny Smith on Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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rick.lang

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Canon CN-E Lenses on BMD Mini Pro 4.6K

PostTue Dec 11, 2018 4:01 am

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dsorbera

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Re: Canon CN-E Lenses on BMD Mini Pro 4.6K

PostTue Dec 11, 2018 1:29 pm

I have both the 4.6k ursa pro and both the 18-80 and 70-200 canon cine lenses. They both do work great with the camera, can be parfocal when adjusted (there is a screw under a rubber flap to adjust the back focus) and have excellent color/flare/sharpness.

There are a few oddities to using them on the URSA. If you use the Canon zoom handle that plugs into the lens the power zoom does work, but the record button on the canon handle will *not* trigger record on the URSA (or the pocket cinema 4k in case you care).
If you use the Canon Zoom/Focus combo for a tripod that plugs into the lens both the zoom and focus work AND the record triggers on the URSA (but not the pocket cinema 4k).

I haven't tried a zoom/focus controller plugged into the LANC port on the URSA, so I couldn't comment there.

The Autofocus does *NOT* work at all on either lens. But the Auto IRIS *Does* work (not that you would ever use it with that beautiful iris ring on the lens).

Hope this helps,
-Daniel
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Denny Smith

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Re: Canon CN-E Lenses on BMD Mini Pro 4.6K

PostTue Dec 11, 2018 6:51 pm

There you have it. It works, which was my understanding from the start, but I knew there was a few issues with them. Good to know from someone who uses them. Thanks dsorbera.

That said, a 200mm lens on the UM Pro in UHD gate size is only going to cover 8.5-feet by 4.75-feet, giving you a medium 3/4 shot on one or more people. You could window down to 2K for a tighter shot, which would be a nice head and shoulders close up shot.

Cheers
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
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Ian Liuzzi-Fedun

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Re: Canon CN-E Lenses on BMD Mini Pro 4.6K

PostTue Dec 03, 2019 12:50 am

dsorbera wrote:There are a few oddities to using them on the URSA. If you use the Canon zoom handle that plugs into the lens the power zoom does work, but the record button on the canon handle will *not* trigger record on the URSA (or the pocket cinema 4k in case you care).
If you use the Canon Zoom/Focus combo for a tripod that plugs into the lens both the zoom and focus work AND the record triggers on the URSA (but not the pocket cinema 4k).




Exactly what product did you use as an adapter as I have seen references to specifically stay away from the EF to MFT Metabones SPEEDBOOSTER for this lens.
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Denny Smith

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Re: Canon CN-E Lenses on BMD Mini Pro 4.6K

PostTue Dec 03, 2019 2:06 am

First off, the Ursa Mini 4.6 Pro has a Canon EF Mount, so an adapter is not required. A MFT adapter will not work on the Ursa Mini either, as none of the Ursa cameras have a MFT Mount. The Ursa Mini Pro can take a EF, Nikon, PL and a B4 Mount, these are actual replacement lens mounts, and are not adapters.

If you are wondering about using the Canon CN-E on a BMD Pocket 4K MFT Mount Camera, you will need a smart EF/MFT adapter that supports the len’s protocols. That said, I would not recommend using this lens on a Native MFT mount camera.
Cheers
Denny Smith
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Ian Liuzzi-Fedun

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Re: Canon CN-E Lenses on BMD Mini Pro 4.6K

PostTue Dec 03, 2019 10:56 am

Denny Smith wrote:First off, the Ursa Mini 4.6 Pro has a Canon EF Mount, so an adapter is not required. A MFT adapter will not work on the Ursa Mini either, as none of the Ursa cameras have a MFT Mount. The Ursa Mini Pro can take a EF, Nikon, PL and a B4 Mount, these are actual replacement lens mounts, and are not adapters.

If you are wondering about using the Canon CN-E on a BMD Pocket 4K MFT Mount Camera, you will need a smart EF/MFT adapter that supports the len’s protocols. That said, I would not recommend using this lens on a Native MFT mount camera.
Cheers



I was a bit vague and I apologize. I specifically meant on the BMPCC4K camera. Any reason as to why people say to stay away from the SPEEDBOOSTER version? Also, why would you say you don't recommend using this on a native MFT camera?
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Denny Smith

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Re: Canon CN-E Lenses on BMD Mini Pro 4.6K

PostTue Dec 03, 2019 9:13 pm

The Canon CN-E lens has a unique lens control protocol designed for Canon Cinema Cameras. The Pocket 4K is not compatible with those lens protocols from everything I have encountered. BMD had to come up with a FW update for the Ursa Mini (see above) to get the Ursa Mini to work with this lens. (See Tim S. Comment below).

Most of the new auto Canon EF Mount lenses are designed to work on Canon EF Mount cameras, and using them on non Canon lenses is a crap shoot, some work, some don’t... some adapters work, some don’t... :roll:

Their are better options available for the Pocket 4K for Cine Zooms, like the new Fujinon MFT Cine zooms. ;)
Cheers
Last edited by Denny Smith on Wed Dec 04, 2019 7:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Tim Schumann

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Re: Canon CN-E Lenses on BMD Mini Pro 4.6K

PostTue Dec 03, 2019 11:22 pm

Denny Smith wrote:BMD had to come up with a FW update for the Ursa Mini (see above) to get the Ursa Mini to work with this lens. To get full functionality from the lens Servo, you need the external Hirose connection, which the Pocket 4K lacks.


That's not actually true... the cable on the handgrip actually plugs into the lens itself and the camera talks to the lens through the EF mount. We'll have a look into it.
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Kristian Lam

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Re: Canon CN-E Lenses on BMD Mini Pro 4.6K

PostWed Dec 04, 2019 12:42 am

Also just FYI, the lens work natively on the Pocket Cinema Camera 6K including the Rec and One Shot Auto Focus buttons on the handgrip. Iris control from the camera will also control the lens.
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Ian Liuzzi-Fedun

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Re: Canon CN-E Lenses on BMD Mini Pro 4.6K

PostWed Dec 04, 2019 1:54 am

Denny Smith wrote:
Their are better options available for the Pocket 4K for Cine Zooms, like the new Fujinon MFT Cine zooms. ;)
Cheers



Only a better option is there is a servo option which would have to be external for those.
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Ian Liuzzi-Fedun

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Re: Canon CN-E Lenses on BMD Mini Pro 4.6K

PostWed Dec 04, 2019 1:56 am

Kristian Lam wrote:Also just FYI, the lens work natively on the Pocket Cinema Camera 6K including the Rec and One Shot Auto Focus buttons on the handgrip. Iris control from the camera will also control the lens.



This is great to hear however I have my 4K units, a fleet of them, and I'd like to see what I can make work from that perspective.
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Kristian Lam

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Re: Canon CN-E Lenses on BMD Mini Pro 4.6K

PostWed Dec 04, 2019 4:49 am

Ian Liuzzi-Fedun wrote:
Kristian Lam wrote:Also just FYI, the lens work natively on the Pocket Cinema Camera 6K including the Rec and One Shot Auto Focus buttons on the handgrip. Iris control from the camera will also control the lens.



This is great to hear however I have my 4K units, a fleet of them, and I'd like to see what I can make work from that perspective.


That's a challenge as anything that goes through an adapter will require the adapter to able to interpret and translate the communication between the lens and the camera body.
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jerrygladh

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Re: Canon CN-E Lenses on BMD Mini Pro 4.6K

PostWed Dec 04, 2019 5:24 pm

Never used my 18-80 on the P4k so I made a test today together with Metabones Cine 0.64 adapter.
Worked nice as a manual lens. Motorzoom worked fine with power from the lens mount.
IS worked to.

Jerry
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Denny Smith

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Re: Canon CN-E Lenses on BMD Mini Pro 4.6K

PostWed Dec 04, 2019 7:25 pm

Thanks, good to know. Corrected my previous post.
Cheers
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
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Ian Liuzzi-Fedun

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Re: Canon CN-E Lenses on BMD Mini Pro 4.6K

PostFri Dec 06, 2019 11:18 am

Is it fair to say it's up to folks like Metabones to do the proper translation, then?

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