We need option to use Full Sensor Read in HFR - BMPCC4K

The place for questions about shooting with Blackmagic Cameras.
  • Author
  • Message
Offline

mattkerlos

  • Posts: 5
  • Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:05 pm
  • Real Name: Matteo Kerlos

We need option to use Full Sensor Read in HFR - BMPCC4K

PostTue Jan 08, 2019 2:14 pm

Hi!
Firstly, We all BM users appreciate your concerns and the effort you put in the BMPCC4K.
But we need the option/choice to turn off "Window Mode" while recording HFR in HD.
Some camera models out there are using the same sensor and they offer Full Sensor read in HFR. So I don't think it's a hardware matter.
Personally, I don't mind some aliasing if there's no crop.
So We hope you Add this option to turn it off/on via a Firmware update.
Thank you Blackmagic.
Offline

Lesha_kvaz

  • Posts: 41
  • Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2018 9:53 am
  • Location: Ukraine
  • Real Name: Aleksey Kuzmenko

Re: We need option to use Full Sensor Read in HFR - BMPCC4K

PostTue Jan 08, 2019 6:33 pm

In somewhat its hardware issue. If they are so.
Because in Full sensor you cannot REC 120fps because of hardware limitation
And to rescale 4k sensor to 1080 while recording 120fps needed also extra juice from hardware.

Of course it will be FANTASTIC if it will be possible to capture Full sensor in 120fps AND 1080 RAW without cropping, but there can be limitations, unfortunately
Offline

Denny Smith

  • Posts: 10396
  • Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:19 pm
  • Location: USA, Northern Calif.

Re: We need option to use Full Sensor Read in HFR - BMPCC4K

PostTue Jan 08, 2019 6:45 pm

Correct, and Raw (DNG as currently implemented) is a one to one pixel readout to get the required resolution, so a 4K cropmis used to get 4K and a HD crop is needed to get HD/2K resolution. To use the entire sensor for “Raw” would require down sampling the image, and it would no longer be an un-processed Raw file.

Currently you can get a full sensor down sample HD/2K recording upto 1080p60. But thensensor readout Times at full gate is not fast enough to support 120fps full gate, and this is the basic issue. So BM window crops the sensor down to HD to get 120fps, where the sensor readout (not using the full sensor) is now fast enough to support 120fps. That said, it would be nice to get a slightly larger full 2K sensor crop in addition to the smaller HD window.p, even if frame rate is limited to 100fps.
Cheers
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
Offline

mattkerlos

  • Posts: 5
  • Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:05 pm
  • Real Name: Matteo Kerlos

Re: We need option to use Full Sensor Read in HFR - BMPCC4K

PostTue Jan 08, 2019 6:54 pm

Guys we need full sensor read. It doesn't have to be in RAW. I would be happy if it's in ProRes.But at least we want to have the choice.
And correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think it's a matter of sensor.
There's another camera models from other brands with the same sensor model and they don't have that crop mode.
Offline

Robert Bowman

  • Posts: 18
  • Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2018 7:52 pm
  • Real Name: Robert Bowman

Re: We need option to use Full Sensor Read in HFR - BMPCC4K

PostTue Jan 08, 2019 7:12 pm

Both sensor variants IMX299CJK & IMX294CJK have the facility to record
17:9 2048x1080 @ 120fps for 12 bits.
17:9 4096x2160 @ 120fps for 10 bits.

I think any sensor recording 4K @ 120fps is at 10bits.

Maybe the question is. How much would you pay extra to have the option unlocked? if the facility to unlock the capability does exist on a sensor by sensor bases. Are you happy to record CinemaDNG at 10bits.

Maybe the sensors are hardcoded and these additional options are no longer available.

All Blackmagic bmpcc 4K recording formats are 12 bit. :D
The Excile : My life hath been one chain of contradictions. Madhouses, prisons, & whore shops.
Offline

Spencer_Meyer

  • Posts: 111
  • Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2017 9:58 pm
  • Location: Arizona

Re: We need option to use Full Sensor Read in HFR - BMPCC4K

PostTue Jan 08, 2019 7:33 pm

I don't think the limitation is with the sensor, but more likely it could be an issue with processor, and/or data bandwidth.
Last edited by Spencer_Meyer on Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
DaVinci Resolve Certified Trainer
Offline
User avatar

Csaba Nagy

  • Posts: 205
  • Joined: Sat Jul 13, 2013 7:01 pm
  • Location: AB, Canada

Re: We need option to use Full Sensor Read in HFR - BMPCC4K

PostTue Jan 08, 2019 7:45 pm

I think this mentality of "We're not getting everything we could" and "The camera can offer more" has been heavily perpetuated by the practices of other manufacturers, Namely Canon. ( at least in their consumer/prosumer market )

Blackmagic is not like Canon and although I can never prove this as fact but only as educated opinion, the way Blackmagic works is: If Blackmagic can do it, they will do it.

4K 120fps is something the camera probably cannot do. Not even the URSA Mini Pro does 4K 120fps and that is nearly 5x the cost with better hardware.
Csaba Nagy
Filmmaker
BMPCC4K
Offline

mattkerlos

  • Posts: 5
  • Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:05 pm
  • Real Name: Matteo Kerlos

Re: We need option to use Full Sensor Read in HFR - BMPCC4K

PostTue Jan 08, 2019 7:48 pm

Csaba Nagy wrote:I think this mentality of "We're not getting everything we could" and "The camera can offer more" has been heavily perpetuated by the practices of other manufacturers, Namely Canon. ( at least in their consumer/prosumer market )

Blackmagic is not like Canon and although I can never prove this as fact but only as educated opinion, the way Blackmagic works is: If Blackmagic can do it, they will do it.

4K 120fps is something the camera probably cannot do. Not even the URSA Mini Pro does 4K 120fps and that is nearly 5x the cost with better hardware.

I never used a canon in my life. I'm trying to reach to BM community, Maybe they consider implementing a solution.
Offline

robertrogoz

  • Posts: 3
  • Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2012 7:03 pm

Re: We need option to use Full Sensor Read in HFR - BMPCC4K

PostTue Jan 08, 2019 8:17 pm

Full sensor readout at 120fps would double data rate and heat generated by the camera, hence it would be virtually impossible under current hardware configuration. What could possibly work is a 2-3 second HFR recording. BTW, ProRes is also generating a lot of heat, as camera has to process the signal, so having 120fps full sensor would also generate more then twice the amount of heat.
The other issue is media, which 120fps and 4K would probably make it next to impossible without dropped frames.
Offline
User avatar

Csaba Nagy

  • Posts: 205
  • Joined: Sat Jul 13, 2013 7:01 pm
  • Location: AB, Canada

Re: We need option to use Full Sensor Read in HFR - BMPCC4K

PostTue Jan 08, 2019 8:18 pm

mattkerlos wrote:I never used a canon in my life. I'm trying to reach to BM community, Maybe they consider implementing a solution.

What I'm saying is given their track record, having observed them over the past six years ever since the first cinema camera, actively being apart of these kinds of conversations. Blackmagic deliver their products with as much core functionality as they can, with very generous supplemental updates and capable new features as time rolls on.

I don't think they've ever added higher frame rates to any of their camera's by means of firmware update, no reason to expect that change this time around. Even the big URSA camera only got higher frame rates with an entirely new sensor block upgrade. ( 80fps from V1 to 120fps V2 )

I'm not against the feature you are vouching for, I would be thrilled to have HFR at full sensor readout. But just saying very unlikely.

Just trying to save you the time lost arguing and discussing this at length. These threads are a dime a dozen on this forum and have been for some time.
Csaba Nagy
Filmmaker
BMPCC4K
Offline
User avatar

joe12south

  • Posts: 397
  • Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:14 pm
  • Location: Nashville, TN
  • Real Name: Joseph Moore

Re: We need option to use Full Sensor Read in HFR - BMPCC4K

PostTue Jan 08, 2019 9:42 pm

If it was added, it would probably be via a quick (poor quality) downscaling method. If the system was capable of doing more, it probably would.

PS. I'm not saying the sensor can't - we know it can, just look at the Z CAM E2 - but we all know that BMD struggles with creating high efficiency pipelines.
Pocketluts: Purpose-built LUT system for the Black Magic Design Pocket Cinema Camera 4K
http://www.pocketluts.com/
Offline

mattkerlos

  • Posts: 5
  • Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:05 pm
  • Real Name: Matteo Kerlos

Re: We need option to use Full Sensor Read in HFR - BMPCC4K

PostTue Jan 08, 2019 10:37 pm

joe12south wrote:If it was added, it would probably be via a quick (poor quality) downscaling method. If the system was capable of doing more, it probably would.

Personally, I don't mind that. Not every client demand a 4k project or watches it on a 4k monitor.
We just want the "CHOICE" to turn it off/on.
Offline

mattkerlos

  • Posts: 5
  • Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:05 pm
  • Real Name: Matteo Kerlos

Re: We need option to use Full Sensor Read in HFR - BMPCC4K

PostTue Jan 08, 2019 10:40 pm

Csaba Nagy wrote:
mattkerlos wrote:I never used a canon in my life. I'm trying to reach to BM community, Maybe they consider implementing a solution.

What I'm saying is given their track record, having observed them over the past six years ever since the first cinema camera, actively being apart of these kinds of conversations. Blackmagic deliver their products with as much core functionality as they can, with very generous supplemental updates and capable new features as time rolls on.

I don't think they've ever added higher frame rates to any of their camera's by means of firmware update, no reason to expect that change this time around. Even the big URSA camera only got higher frame rates with an entirely new sensor block upgrade. ( 80fps from V1 to 120fps V2 )

I'm not against the feature you are vouching for, I would be thrilled to have HFR at full sensor readout. But just saying very unlikely.

Just trying to save you the time lost arguing and discussing this at length. These threads are a dime a dozen on this forum and have been for some time.

I understand what you are pointing to. And if you noticed, I began my post with thanking BM, as I know they already exerting efforts. Just wanted to inform them as I didn't find so many posts about this topic.
Offline
User avatar

joe12south

  • Posts: 397
  • Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:14 pm
  • Location: Nashville, TN
  • Real Name: Joseph Moore

Re: We need option to use Full Sensor Read in HFR - BMPCC4K

PostTue Jan 08, 2019 10:42 pm

It doesn't work for every situation, but remember, you can effectively negate the crop by stepping backwards. ;-)
Pocketluts: Purpose-built LUT system for the Black Magic Design Pocket Cinema Camera 4K
http://www.pocketluts.com/

Return to Cinematography

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Boscom, JordanWright, MScDre, Tommaso Alvisi, tonyvxp and 17 guests