NTSC 1080i

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Fran Tormo

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NTSC 1080i

PostFri Jan 11, 2019 7:33 pm

Hello again
This Monday I will shoot an interview here in Spain for a EEUU broadcast TV
They ask me for 29,97 fps, drop frame tc, 1080i upper field first NTSC
I can set my camera up with 29,97 fps, 60HZ, 60 shutter speed but is not posible to
work other than progressive. Do you think it would be a problem if I give them
the 1080p signal and they make it interlaced? or is it better to give them 59,94?
would be the last option better to get the interlaced version?
I don´t remember when was the last time I shot interlaced! so long!!!
Should I rent a broadcast camera and forget about it?
Also, maybe I will be dealing with flickering issues, maybe I will need to shoot everything
at natural light, even in interiors and forget about lighting.....any one had
a situation like that?
Thanks for any advice!

Fran Tormo
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Luca Rocchini

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Re: NTSC 1080i

PostFri Jan 11, 2019 7:58 pm

Check this:

http://urbanvideo.ca/avoid-video-flicker

I guess you should test your best shutter speed beforehand :)
Luca Rocchini DOP

URSA MINI PRO 4.6K, EF, PL, SSD Recorder, BM VA 4K, Nikon AIS

http://www.lucarocchini.com/
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Fran Tormo

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Re: NTSC 1080i

PostFri Jan 11, 2019 8:10 pm

Thanks luca
This is not the problem, because with natural light or playing with shutter
I can avoid flickering
The problem is that I should record in 1080i and Ursa mini pro
Is progresive, I can shoot in NTSC 29,97 or 59,95 and
Avoid flicker, bur I’m afraid I will have to rent a
Regular broadcast camera with proper interlaced 1080i upper field
Or is it posible to do it giving them
59,94 NTSC Drop frame 1080p signal and the can interlace it later?
I don´t know!
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MishaEngel

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Re: NTSC 1080i

PostFri Jan 11, 2019 8:24 pm

UMP supports the following HD video standards:

1080p23.98
1080p24
1080p25
1080p29.97
1080p30
1080p50
1080p59.94
1080p60

1080i50
1080i59.94
1080i60

29.97p and 59.94i

There is no such thing as 1080i29.97, it simply doesn't exist.
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Denny Smith

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Re: NTSC 1080i

PostFri Jan 11, 2019 8:37 pm

Yes, but to get 1080i, you might need to select DNxHD codec to be able to record 1080i in camera, at least that is what you do on the Ursa Broadcast camera, and you need to select 59.94 frame rate first.
Then select drop frame in menu settings, and you should be good to go.
Cheers
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
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dsorbera

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Re: NTSC 1080i

PostFri Jan 11, 2019 8:40 pm

29.97p is the exact same thing as 59.94i. The only difference is one is interlaced and one is progressive. You can shoot 29.97p and encode to 59.94i in adobe media encoder no problem.

The issue you'll run into is shooting 60hz in a PAL country... I recently shot a documentary that was on location in Guatemala and also in Albania (Albania is in Europe, near Macedonia for those who don't know).
I tried all the tricks I could find online about messing with your shutter speed to reduce flicker and nothing worked. I had to change my camera to 50hz and shoot in 25p. I was worried that I would have issues mixing with my 23.98p footage from Guatemala on a single timeline but I didn't have any problems and the project looked great.
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Fran Tormo

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Re: NTSC 1080i

PostFri Jan 11, 2019 8:42 pm

So. if I put my camera on 60Hz 59,94 I´m shooting 1080i?
I mean, I don´t find in the Ursa mini pro a way to put 1080p or 1080i only HD
And I´m a little bit confuse
Because this is are the specs they want:
29,97 frame ( or 59,97 fields )
1920 x 1080 interlaced scanner lines
Sequence must have drop frames time code
1080i
16:9

And then, they say, please sure the camera man needs to be on NTSC 29,97 fps ( broadcast US frame rate )
So, I´m trying to find interlace menu like in other cameras but I don´t find it
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dsorbera

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Re: NTSC 1080i

PostFri Jan 11, 2019 8:48 pm

No. IF you put your camera on 60hz 59.94p you are shooting 60fps. Put your camera on 29.97p then you are shooting the same frame rate as 1080i, but you will still need to transcode in adobe media encoder to 1080i.

The difference is that 29.97P is FRAMES per second, and 59.94i is FIELDS per second. Therefore 29.97p and 59.94i are the exact same FRAME RATE. The difference is in how your monitor will decode/playback the file. Interlaced and progressive will look different during fast motion, even though it's showing the exact same amount of frames per second. Because on the interlaced one the frames are cut in half and shown staggered, so you can get artifacting in fast motion.


The short story is shoot what they are asking for in 29.97p and transcode later to an interlaced output.

As a bonus piece of info on your UMP you can change the SDI output to 1080i or 1080p all while shooting 29.97p. Just another example showing you that 29.97p and 1080i are the same thing.
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Fran Tormo

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Re: NTSC 1080i

PostFri Jan 11, 2019 8:57 pm

Thanks Daniel for the short story, it is what I need, a solution.
Maybe I would try to output 1080i through sdi to a Shogun Inferno and get the 108oi at the same time
If not, I will transcode it later, doesn't´t matter
Thanks for your help again guys!
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Robert Niessner

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Re: NTSC 1080i

PostFri Jan 11, 2019 9:57 pm

I can't imagine that they really want 29.97 progressive packed into 2:2 interlaced.
Better double check if it isn't true 59.94 interlaced what they want.
Anyway, I would shoot in 59.94 progressive on the camera and from there you can export anything they want. You can export as 29.97p in 2:2 fields, true progressive 29.97, true progressive 59.94 and true interlaced 59.94i
Robert Niessner
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Fran Tormo

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Re: NTSC 1080i

PostFri Jan 11, 2019 10:20 pm

Ey Robert
They simply order it to me the regular NTSC
Brodcast 1080i interlaced, they don’t care
how can I produce it. The problem is on my
Side because I got a cinema camera not
a broadcast camera.....
The solution that Dany and you sugest
are both good solutions, but maybe with
Shogun and the 1080i output I can make it
But with 59,94 I got all the posibilities....
Tomorow I will try the two ways
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Denny Smith

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Re: NTSC 1080i

PostFri Jan 11, 2019 10:28 pm

OK, but you can only get a 1080i output while the camera is set to 50/60/59.94fps not 29.94fps.
To set the Ursa Broadcast to record 1080i59.94 drop frame here are the Menu steps (This should also,work on the UM Pro):
First go to Record Menu, set your frame rate to 59.94, and select Video or Extended Video, then scroll left to Raw/ProRes/DNxHD menu, select DNxHD, and bit rate, I use the 145 setting, then the 1080i button will be active, select 1080i.
Next, Exit Menu, and check top line of heads up display on the camera monitor is set to 59.94i, if it shows 60i, then pull it down and change it to back to 59.94.
Third, Go back to menu, select Setup menu, on on the first Setup screen upper right is Drop Frame Off/On, select On
Now you are now in 1080i record mode at NTSC 59.94 with drop frame.

Both the Ursa Broadcast and the Ursa Mini Pro have the same OS/Menu system setup, so this should work to set your UM Pro camera to 1080i*. What I learned is you can not select 1080i, while in ProRes setting, only in DNxHD, which is the Avid codec most Broadcast stations use, or a NLE that can use this codec. You might check with the station about this first.

Edit: turns out the UMPro does not have DNxHD, so unable to record 1080i, only output it via the SDI . :(
Cheers
Last edited by Denny Smith on Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Denny Smith
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dsorbera

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Re: NTSC 1080i

PostFri Jan 11, 2019 10:32 pm

That's a nice thought Denny, except the Ursa Mini Pro doesn't have DNxHD, only the Broadcast does.

And I hate to disagree with the other posts, but shooting in 59.94p and then converting to 59.94i will look vastly different than shooting in 29.97p and converting to 59.94i.

Go shoot it and try it and you'll see the difference. Shooting in 60fps is only a good idea if you want that look. Shooting at 60fps just so you can convert to less won't give you the same look.
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Denny Smith

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Re: NTSC 1080i

PostFri Jan 11, 2019 10:40 pm

OK, Daniel, then thanks for that, was not sure if this had been added to the UMPro in the last firmware update.
Also, I wasn’t suggesting shooting at 59.95p to trying conform to 1080i, you need to use 29.97 for that, as you pointed out. However, since he has an external recorder, he can set the UMPro to 59.94p, then select the rear SDI out to 1080i, this works, as Capt. Hook described doing this in a previous post, and he also indicated the camera will not output 1080i unless it is set to 50/59.94/60p.
G
Fran then could use the 1080i output from the camera to record on his external recorder, saving the post production step.
Cheers
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
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Fran Tormo

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Re: NTSC 1080i

PostFri Jan 11, 2019 10:54 pm

Exactly, the mini pro doesn’t shoot dnxhd
Only prores. I hope get it done shoting
Prores 59,94 and output 1080i to shogun
or shoot 59,97 and from premier convert it
To 29,97 1080i
But, wich frame will let me choose the Shogun?
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Robert Niessner

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Re: NTSC 1080i

PostFri Jan 11, 2019 11:20 pm

dsorbera wrote:That's a nice thought Denny, except the Ursa Mini Pro doesn't have DNxHD, only the Broadcast does.

And I hate to disagree with the other posts, but shooting in 59.94p and then converting to 59.94i will look vastly different than shooting in 29.97p and converting to 59.94i.

Go shoot it and try it and you'll see the difference. Shooting in 60fps is only a good idea if you want that look. Shooting at 60fps just so you can convert to less won't give you the same look.


I have done that several times and it gives you exactly the same look.
Shoot 50p at 1/50, put that into a 25p timeline (every second frame gets dropped), output that to 50i gives you a progressive 25p format packaged into interlaced fields aka PsF.
Robert Niessner
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Denny Smith

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Re: NTSC 1080i

PostSat Jan 12, 2019 5:44 am

You have to set the camera to 59.94 to get 1080i output to the Atomos Shogun recorder.
Cheers
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
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Fran Tormo

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Re: NTSC 1080i

PostSat Jan 12, 2019 9:51 am

Thanks Danny, gonna try right now
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Fran Tormo

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Re: NTSC 1080i

PostSat Jan 12, 2019 10:44 am

I’m still got progresive but with 2:2
The camera is set to 59’94, drop frame 60Hz
And shogun gives me 2:2 1089p 29,97
I’m going to put this on premier and look at it
Maybe there I could export true 1080i easly
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Fran Tormo

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Re: NTSC 1080i

PostSat Jan 12, 2019 11:33 am

Well,
look that even with the Shogun I should pass from premier, but it´s ok
I can shoot in camera 59,94 as a back up and in Shogun 29,97 and in premier export as interlaced
Or maybe I should record in camera as 29,97, forget about Shogun and export in premier as interlaced
Gonna try in camera 29,97 and let you know
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Fran Tormo

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Re: NTSC 1080i

PostSat Jan 12, 2019 11:58 am

I found that the easies way to shoot is in camera 29,97 without Shogun
and then later on, export as interlace in premier, this way I don't need extra
equipment and I can work my audio in premier a little bit as well
Because with the shogun I still need to pass through premier, so,
the simplest solution is in camera 29,97
Thanks a lot for the help, any input will be welcome
Daniel Sorbera, you were right!
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Johannes Jonsson

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Re: NTSC 1080i

PostSat Jan 12, 2019 4:04 pm

If they need 29,97i you need to shoot at 59.94p. First frame will be upper field and the second will be lower field.
UMP does not support internal interlaced recording, it supports interlaced out to external devices through SDI, then you need to set the camera fps to 59.94p and the same ting happen as above, First frame will be upper field and the second will be lower.
Johannes
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Fran Tormo

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Re: NTSC 1080i

PostSat Jan 12, 2019 10:27 pm

I did it Johannes, but it doesn’t matter
When you send 1080i throught the output
the Shogun see 29,97p, there is not a chance
To see anything but this
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roger.magnusson

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Re: NTSC 1080i

PostSun Jan 13, 2019 12:56 am

Try disabling pulldown detection on the Shogun.
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Denny Smith

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Re: NTSC 1080i

PostSun Jan 13, 2019 2:03 am

Yes Roger, I agree, iperhaps the Shogun that is changing the 1080i 59.97 back to a 2:2 pulldown to 29.97p? Fran, try turning off the PSF/Pulldown on the recorder (if it has one). My PixE did the same thing, until we disabled the 3:2 Pulldown Auto-detect for 1080i signal. Since the Ursa Mini Pro is a Progressive Camera, the 1080i output is created by a 3:2 Pulldown or PSF in an interlace wrapper.
Cheers
Last edited by Denny Smith on Sun Jan 13, 2019 7:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Fran Tormo

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Re: NTSC 1080i

PostSun Jan 13, 2019 11:11 am

I tried my friends, I tried!
When I disable the pull down, the signal doesn’t reach the
shogun. At least I got a method that works in premier
So, not worry right now for deliver a proper
29,97 interlaced signal
Thanks a lot for your help guys! Very helpful
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Robert Niessner

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Re: NTSC 1080i

PostSun Jan 13, 2019 12:39 pm

I tried to re-create what you are doing on my UM46k and Shogun Inferno.
Like the camera manual states, 1080i on the outputs is only available when shooting 50, 59.94 or 60 fps.

When I do that, my Shogun Inferno gets a 59.94i signal and records it without any pulldown (that option isn't even available as it doesn't make sense here). When camera is set to 29.97 it only outputs 29.97p and the Shogun Inferno also gets only that.
Robert Niessner
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Fran Tormo

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Re: NTSC 1080i

PostSun Jan 13, 2019 2:58 pm

Yes exactly Robert!
That´s happen too me as well, it is the same when I used the Shogun with my A7sII, I had to put the camera
output to 1080i to get true 25p 2:2 pulldown progressive.
Fortunately I´m able to get it on premier, so, at least there is a way!
Thank you for try it!!
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Fran Tormo

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Re: NTSC 1080i

PostTue Jan 15, 2019 7:32 pm

Guys! Everything right!
They are already editing with no problem
so, the postinterlace way was ok.
My only complain with the Ursa was that I had
To switch on the “time code drop frame” each
time I turn on the camera.
But the extended video was superb because
the extra DR in this situation were
I wasn’t able to use lights because
the flicker issue turn out very good. All was
natural light, even the interior interview with
window light.
Thanks again!
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Denny Smith

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Re: NTSC 1080i

PostTue Jan 15, 2019 9:30 pm

Good, glad it all worked out. Yes, having to turn on Drop Frame each time Camera is powered up is an extra step. Adding a Video/Cinema switch choice, that would allow for presets in both setups would be grand. Then yiu could have 1080i, Drop Frsme, shutter speeds, etc under Video, and the Progressive setup, shutter angels, etc under Cinema. The AF100 did this.
Cheers
Last edited by Denny Smith on Wed Jan 16, 2019 6:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Fran Tormo

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Re: NTSC 1080i

PostWed Jan 16, 2019 1:41 pm

Thanks Denny!
Not a bad idea!!
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Leon Benzakein

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Re: NTSC 1080i

PostWed Jan 16, 2019 4:23 pm

This has been an interesting thread.

But Who is on first?

Television: Lighting/Cameraman, O.B. Camera Operator, Grip, Lamp Operator
Film: Grip, Lamp Operator
Theater: Lighting Designer, Light board Operator, Stage Electrician, Stage Management

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