Original black magic VS the new 4k

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Ivon Visalli

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Re: Original black magic VS the new 4k

PostSat Mar 02, 2019 9:57 pm

Rick, I am really looking forward to the results!
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Uli Plank

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Re: Original black magic VS the new 4k

PostSun Mar 03, 2019 3:41 am

Many years ago I made some money (being a film student in my final year myself) by teaching amateurs in a public institution on Super-8 (yes, I'm that old). Even if they were asked in the announcement to bring their movies if any, they all brought their cameras instead and the usual pissing contest started (all male). My zoom has so-and-so much reach, I have time-lapse and overcrank and yadda, yadda, yadda.

There was only one guy who didn't' bring his camera but had his film with him. When the others asked about his camera, he said it's nothing special, a cheap model from mailorder. I knew the model, we had some of that brand for the first year at the university: just 24 fps, very limited zoom, no special features.

He asked to have a look at his film together after the course, but I didn't have the time. I commanded the whole group to bring their films next time and I that I don't want to see any camera around. They did so and we screened, first without any discussion. The usual, boring stuff with what you torture family and friends after your holiday. Some of them were so long that I had to set a time limit for screening from the start after looking at the reels.

But one film stood out, with decent camera movements, sensible framing, and good editing, even telling a small story. And just about the right length. Guess who made it? When the group found out it was the guy with the simplest camera, I could hear the sound of a few jaws dropping. After all, they could perceive it was more cinematic than all the rest!

Well, to apply this to our thread again: get a second-hand HD pocket, some cheap lenses in C-mount and start filming. You can throw it in the bin after those three years, but I bet you'll keep it as a B-cam if it still works. You'll have to know the function of the buttons without looking by then, since the writing will be non-existent, though ;-)
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Australian Image

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Re: Original black magic VS the new 4k

PostSun Mar 03, 2019 4:01 am

That story is very reminiscent of an experience I had at one of my work places one time. I wasn't directly involved with photography in that job, but was enjoying printing some of my stuff on A2+ (17"x 22") paper and putting them on a wall in front of my office.

People used to come around regularly to see what new stuff I'd put up and one day a FF Nikon user came over and we had a discussion. The first thing he asked was what FF camera did I use to take the photos. He was very quiet after I told him that the photos he was looking at were taken with a 5MP Olympus E1 camera.

On another note, I stopped putting up any photographs after some female complained about my sexually provocative photos that I'd put up one day. The photos were of a friend's daughter and her friends all dressed up for their school formal that I'd been asked to do. This was the sort of thing the female complained about:

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Denny Smith

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Re: Original black magic VS the new 4k

PostSun Mar 03, 2019 5:47 am

I think her objection may have been more to do with the juxposition of the statue on the table next to the young woman... :roll:
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Re: Original black magic VS the new 4k

PostSun Mar 03, 2019 5:53 am

Denny Smith wrote:I think her objection may have been more to do with the juxposition of the statue on the table next to the young woman... :roll:
Cheers


There were a lot of disappointed people when the photos were removed, some slightly angry when apprised of the reason. But I decided not show any more after that, for who knows what might offend the next person.
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rick.lang

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Re: Original black magic VS the new 4k

PostSun Mar 03, 2019 4:39 pm

Denny has a good point if that statuette has nothing to do with the school or grad functions. It’s possible someone found it inappropriate at the time.

Can’t recall if I already mentioned this, but when the girls graduated last June, I was on the Dry Grad Executive Committee and offered to do a pro bono video of the official all night Dry grad party for the school’s AV system as a promotional for this year’s graduation functions. That was a no-no. I did do a video for the Decorating team, but that didn’t involve students, only parent volunteers.

Times have changed. When I was young the catchphrase for a memory you wanted to preserve was a “Kodak moment” that could last for a lifetime. For the current generation of teens, it’s SnapChat and poof, it’s gone. I have the family album going back well over a hundred years. Today’s youth...


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Denny Smith

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Re: Original black magic VS the new 4k

PostSun Mar 03, 2019 5:35 pm

Yes Rick, shooting photos of students is now a “no, no” unless you have the written permission of the parents or the student’s guardian. When I was working for the local TV station, we had to do this if we were going to show any students in the video, mostly we shot the “talent” night show, and a couple of special Studio projects the students were involved in, and even with permission slips, we could not “boradcast” any events showing minor students. We did DVDs for the family and school.

Times have changed, and for the better I think.
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Re: Original black magic VS the new 4k

PostSun Mar 03, 2019 6:19 pm

I decided to order the BMPCC 4k and also buy a used Super Takumar 50 mm f1.4 lens

Should I order from B&H or Adorama, or...?
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Re: Original black magic VS the new 4k

PostSun Mar 03, 2019 7:51 pm

The photo in question and the others were taken with the full permission of the parents and they were all present at the time (a problem in itself). The complaint definitely wasn't about the statue.

Sadly, nowadays, no one is allowed fun things anymore.
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Re: Original black magic VS the new 4k

PostSun Mar 03, 2019 8:27 pm

Australian Image wrote:The photo in question and the others were taken with the full permission of the parents and they were all present at the time (a problem in itself). The complaint definitely wasn't about the statue.

Sadly, nowadays, no one is allowed fun things anymore.


should have taken on a beach, then she would appear overly dressed, maybe no one would complain, :? :idea: (apologizing for my poor attempt at humour)
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Re: Original black magic VS the new 4k

PostSun Mar 03, 2019 9:33 pm

would anyone know why Adorama has Super 16 mm sensor in the description for the bmpcc 4k?? I thought it was a bigger micro 4/3 sensor??

and i was just ready to order, this is so frustrating.
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Rakesh Malik

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Re: Original black magic VS the new 4k

PostSun Mar 03, 2019 9:46 pm

Probably because it's the closest Cinema standard. There aren't any variations on these guys.


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rick.lang

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Re: Original black magic VS the new 4k

PostSun Mar 03, 2019 10:47 pm

The sensor is slightly wider than the traditional mFT at 18.96x10mm versus the 17.3mm width on most cameras before the BMPCC4K and Panasonic GH5s were announced last year.


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Re: Original black magic VS the new 4k

PostMon Mar 04, 2019 2:55 am

austindonald1 wrote:would anyone know why Adorama has Super 16 mm sensor in the description for the bmpcc 4k?? I thought it was a bigger micro 4/3 sensor??

and i was just ready to order, this is so frustrating.

Probably they copied the original Pocket Camera listing, which had a S16 size sensor. The new Pocket 4K is closer to a Std. Academy 35mm format. As Rick mentioned, the new sensor is slightly larger than traditional MFT format.
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Re: Original black magic VS the new 4k

PostMon Mar 04, 2019 5:08 am

And it will definitely not be covered by most S-16 lenses, wides in particular.
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Re: Original black magic VS the new 4k

PostMon Mar 04, 2019 3:08 pm

Rakesh Malik wrote:
michaeldhead wrote:So can we agree that while you need to know your tools and how to best use them, it's not the camera that makes the difference?


Though it's true, there will always be ever more people trying to find a camera that gives them a "cinematic" look because it's easier than developing one's craft.


Agreed.
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Re: Original black magic VS the new 4k

PostThu Mar 14, 2019 7:22 pm

i was reading in other forum about the original pocket having a sensor with bigger pixels?? Anyone with understanding concerning this?
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rick.lang

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Re: Original black magic VS the new 4k

PostThu Mar 14, 2019 9:36 pm

The BMCC and BMPCC use photosites that are 6.5 microns square. The URSA Mini 4.6K/Pro use 5.5 microns. The BMPCC4K uses 4.63 micron photosites.


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Re: Original black magic VS the new 4k

PostThu Mar 14, 2019 11:32 pm

The Pocket 4K also has a back-side illuminated (BSI) sensor, among other upgrades, which improves light gathering capability quite a bit by moving a lot of electronics out of the way of the sensor.
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rick.lang

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Re: Original black magic VS the new 4k

PostFri Mar 15, 2019 1:22 am

I imagine that may make up for the smaller photosites and then some.


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Re: Original black magic VS the new 4k

PostThu Mar 28, 2019 4:29 pm

rick.lang wrote:The BMCC and BMPCC use photosites that are 6.5 microns square. The URSA Mini 4.6K/Pro use 5.5 microns. The BMPCC4K uses 4.63 micron photosites.


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Does 6.5 microns square difference affect quality of picture?
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Re: Original black magic VS the new 4k

PostThu Mar 28, 2019 4:48 pm

austindonald1 wrote:
rick.lang wrote:The BMCC and BMPCC use photosites that are 6.5 microns square. The URSA Mini 4.6K/Pro use 5.5 microns. The BMPCC4K uses 4.63 micron photosites.

Does 6.5 microns square difference affect quality of picture?


If all else is equal, larger photo sites lead to lower noise and a higher dynamic range (bigger photo sites can collect more light before they saturate -- think of them as buckets).

However, all else isn't equal, or even close; for example, the Pocket 4K has a sensor that is back-side illuminated, which removes a lot of obstacles from the front of the sensor, leading to as much as a 20% higher light gathering ability... which when combined with cooler and less noise-generating electronics, cleaner opamps, and improve image processing, more than makes up the difference as far as noise goes.
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Re: Original black magic VS the new 4k

PostThu Mar 28, 2019 4:57 pm

austindonald1 wrote:Does 6.5 microns square difference affect quality of picture?
In general, larger photosites = more photons hitting each photo site = less noise relative to a smaller photosite (of the same design)

it also has a relationship to color. The stronger the color filter dyes on the RGB photosites, the more accurate the color, but the less light that passes through (lowering the native ISO of the sensor). So, there are trade offs between photosite size, light sensativity, and color quality.

Those tradeoffs explain part of the reason that all of ARRI's cameras (so far) have exactly the same photosite size. When ARRI has increased the K count of its camera sensors, it has done so by increasing the size of the sensor while keeping photosite size the same. This means that the image between different ARRI camera sensors - the s35 Alexa, the Alexa LF, and Alexa 65 - is very consistent in terms of color quality, dynamic range, native ISO, and noise character.
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Re: Original black magic VS the new 4k

PostThu Mar 28, 2019 8:41 pm

austindonald1 wrote:Does 6.5 microns square difference affect quality of picture?


Much more comes into it. The original 5MP Olympus E1 had the same sensor size as the latest 20MP E-M1, but low light capability was woeful, you could barely use ISO 400, yet with the latest cameras you can use ISO 6400 with ease. This has a lot to do with the electronics as well and the fact that the former used a CCD sensor instead of a CMOS sensor. That said, the CCD sensor produced far 'nicer' colours.

But taking another view, the Sony A7R (pick your model) has the same sensor size as the A7s, but the pixel density in the A7R is much greater (smaller pixels) than the A7s (larger pixels), which technically makes the A7s a better low light camera for video. For stills photography you can descale the A7R images and get rid of a lot of noise, but Sony made the A7s to primarily be a video camera, much like the GH5 vs the GH5s.

And with improved technology and even AI, the pixel size isn't always the determining factor, though all things being equal, it should be.
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