DNG vs. Blackmagic RAW - help

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spencer_moshian

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Re: DNG vs. Blackmagic RAW - help

PostTue Jun 25, 2019 8:31 pm

John Paines wrote:
spencer_moshian wrote:I watched comparison videos of BRAW and CDNG on an iPhone 8+ and could see the difference. Would be nice to have BRAW eventually meet the level of resolution and clarity the CDNG has.



I'm sorry, but you're dreaming. It's hard enough to see differences on large professional monitors, zoomed in.

You may have seen differences between clips, but they likely had nothing to do with codecs.


John, I saw what I saw. I'm very excited to use the camera on gigs soon, regardless of codec. I think it is interesting that there is a difference in CDNG and BRAW, however small, and bringing any of that extra quality to BRAW would be great, but won't stop me or hold me back in the mean time.
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youlikeny

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Re: DNG vs. Blackmagic RAW - help

PostTue Jun 25, 2019 8:40 pm

You probably saw two different clips shot or processed in some slightly different ways... There is no way to see the difference between a CDNG and BRAW file on an iPhone... And by the way, there must have been some additional compression anyway because I'm pretty sure iPhone can't playback braw or CDNGs...
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Chris Shivers

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Re: DNG vs. Blackmagic RAW - help

PostTue Jun 25, 2019 8:54 pm

spencer_moshian wrote:
John Paines wrote:
spencer_moshian wrote:I watched comparison videos of BRAW and CDNG on an iPhone 8+ and could see the difference. Would be nice to have BRAW eventually meet the level of resolution and clarity the CDNG has.



I'm sorry, but you're dreaming. It's hard enough to see differences on large professional monitors, zoomed in.

You may have seen differences between clips, but they likely had nothing to do with codecs.


John, I saw what I saw. I'm very excited to use the camera on gigs soon, regardless of codec. I think it is interesting that there is a difference in CDNG and BRAW, however small, and bringing any of that extra quality to BRAW would be great, but won't stop me or hold me back in the mean time.


Yea there’s no way for you to see the differences between CDNG and BRaw on an iPhone. On the desktop you have to zoom in 300% in order to see the difference
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Robert Niessner

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Re: DNG vs. Blackmagic RAW - help

PostTue Jun 25, 2019 8:59 pm

spencer_moshian wrote:John, I saw what I saw. I'm very excited to use the camera on gigs soon, regardless of codec. I think it is interesting that there is a difference in CDNG and BRAW, however small, and bringing any of that extra quality to BRAW would be great, but won't stop me or hold me back in the mean time.


I am sorry, but in the thread I posted before I have done extensive testing with samples you can compare down the the pixel level. There is zero chance you would be able to see the difference on an iPhone screen. That's only possible if you have watched a very flawed comparison. Care to link your source?
Robert Niessner
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Robert Niessner

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Re: DNG vs. Blackmagic RAW - help

PostTue Jun 25, 2019 9:05 pm

Chris Shivers wrote:Yea there’s no way for you to see the differences between CDNG and BRaw on an iPhone. On the desktop you have to zoom in 300% in order to see the difference


Well, that isn't exactly true either. I was able to see the difference at a 1:1 pixel view on my 34" 21:9 monitor, but only because I exactly knew what to look for and at a short viewing distance, like a meter away.
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spencer_moshian

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Re: DNG vs. Blackmagic RAW - help

PostTue Jun 25, 2019 9:25 pm



My mistake. I watched this a while ago and had remembered it being BRAW, however it is ProRes422HQ vs CDNG. That said, is there a sharpness difference between ProRes422HQ and BRAW? I can see that the ProRes looks mushy and less sharp in that video on my iPhone when the clips are not zoomed. The zooms really reveal what’s going on. Unless you guys think he somehow sharpened the CDNG by mistake? I’ll do my own testing soon with some charts.
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John Paines

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Re: DNG vs. Blackmagic RAW - help

PostTue Jun 25, 2019 9:32 pm

That youtube "test" is ludicrous. I didn't get very far, but it appears they're comparing Prores Log to rec. 709 normalized CNDG and calling both "ungraded"! This is no comparison at all. Under controlled conditions, you'll never be able to tell the difference between Prores and CDNG/braw skin tones.

Everything said here about braw v. CDNG is more or less true of Prores v. CNDG and braw v. Prores. Differences are subtle, and typically invisible to the naked eye under normal viewing conditions, even on large screens.

It's pointless to know, but braw at its highest compression ratios (12:1, 8:1, 5:1, Q5) is *softer* than Prores HQ. But you'll never see the difference. It's not worth worrying about.
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spencer_moshian

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Re: DNG vs. Blackmagic RAW - help

PostTue Jun 25, 2019 9:42 pm

At 0:46 you see the ungraded and then the comparisons, but I get your point that it’s subtle re: BRAW vs ProRes and the compression ratios
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John Paines

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Re: DNG vs. Blackmagic RAW - help

PostTue Jun 25, 2019 9:49 pm

Okay, I forced myself to watch more of it. They do get around to grading both shots -- you can't compare log shots, for quality! -- but it's still meaningless.

Differences will be leveled by his delivery compression, youtube compression, and variations in grading and lighting. You can't judge anything this way.
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Chris Shivers

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Re: DNG vs. Blackmagic RAW - help

PostTue Jun 25, 2019 11:55 pm

Robert Niessner wrote:
Chris Shivers wrote:Yea there’s no way for you to see the differences between CDNG and BRaw on an iPhone. On the desktop you have to zoom in 300% in order to see the difference


Well, that isn't exactly true either. I was able to see the difference at a 1:1 pixel view on my 34" 21:9 monitor, but only because I exactly knew what to look for and at a short viewing distance, like a meter away.

Yea but even then it’s not a big difference that it will pop out. I noticed a small difference but it’s nothing to dispute over.
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Re: DNG vs. Blackmagic RAW - help

PostWed Jun 26, 2019 12:20 am

spencer_moshian wrote:I watched comparison videos of BRAW and CDNG on an iPhone 8+ and could see the difference. Would be nice to have BRAW eventually meet the level of resolution and clarity the CDNG has.


I see the difference, too. Some users find it hard to admit that DNG is better than BRAW.
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John Paines

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Re: DNG vs. Blackmagic RAW - help

PostWed Jun 26, 2019 12:24 am

lee4ever wrote:
spencer_moshian wrote:I watched comparison videos of BRAW and CDNG on an iPhone 8+ and could see the difference. Would be nice to have BRAW eventually meet the level of resolution and clarity the CDNG has.


I see the difference, too. Some users find it hard to admit that DNG is better than BRAW.


But you **aren't** a user -- and this rest of us actually are. There's a big difference between youtube, and the claims of youtubbers, and the reality of shooting material and looking at it. It also helps to understand the grading process, as well as basic shooting principles. Because images look different on youtube doesn't mean that braw, CNDG, Prores, h.265 etc., is the reason.
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Re: DNG vs. Blackmagic RAW - help

PostWed Jun 26, 2019 12:57 am

lee4ever wrote:
spencer_moshian wrote:I watched comparison videos of BRAW and CDNG on an iPhone 8+ and could see the difference. Would be nice to have BRAW eventually meet the level of resolution and clarity the CDNG has.


I see the difference, too. Some users find it hard to admit that DNG is better than BRAW.


Here is the thing... It's impossible to notice the difference between DNG and BRAW on a youtube video on a phone... Simple as that...
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