¿Will Pocket Cinema Camera 4K include CinemaDNG again?

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John Brawley

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Re: ¿Will Pocket Cinema Camera 4K include CinemaDNG again?

PostFri May 17, 2019 3:49 am

MishaEngel wrote:
ProRes is well and truly established, that doesn't make it high end to current standards.
For TV work it's fine and often good enough for theater.


I'm not sure I follow the logic.

ProRes is THE dominant codec. End of story.

We're pixel peeping 300% blowups on a codec that no-one uses, mostly because it's entirely impractical to shoot uncompressed RAW.

Who here really and truly actually shoots full uncompressed DNG ? (not 3:1 or 4:1)

Once it's compressed, then there's really no question at all that bRAW trumps compressed cDNG. It's a more modern codec that's also much more practical to use in post.

The fastest media doesn't even support higher frame rates when it's uncompressed...

If you really really want uncompressed RAW then Arri Raw is basically TIFF files you can shoot that, or you can go to an Odyssey 7Q+ with a cDNG RAW option and turn any camera into a cDNG camera.

https://www.convergent-design.com/odyss ... -recording

I'd much rather BMD focus on getting more DR and better functionality into their cameras that using a legacy RAW format that very very few actually use and certainly isn't AT ALL widely used in industry, and is NEVER LIKELY to be adopted more than it currently is.

JB
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MishaEngel

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Re: ¿Will Pocket Cinema Camera 4K include CinemaDNG again?

PostFri May 17, 2019 12:39 pm

youlikeny wrote:
MishaEngel wrote:
John Brawley wrote:Let's not get hung up on Game of thrones. The point I was making was that MOST high end work you see, tends to be more likely shot ProRes than any other format. ProRes has been well and truly established as a very robust and high end codec.


JB


What is high-end?

ALEXA 65's ProRes isn't the best i've seen and that is about the highest end camera you can get these days.
RED's ProRes is also not that impressive.
Sony Venice's ProRes not that good.

Those are the high-end camera's today that have enough bayer pixel to produce a real 4k-DCI output or UHD. The rest of the camera's are upresed at best.

ProRes is well and trully esteblished, that doesn't make it high end to current standards.
For TV work it's fine and often good enough for theater.


Alexa 65's pro res isn't the best you've seen?

You realize that the Alexa 65 doesn't record in ProRes, right? So how did you see it exactly?


Yes I do..., for high end work, ARRI, RED and SONY use RAW, not prores.
Prores is nice for proxies, when you have a weak GPU or when you lack the ... to work with anything other than a Mac.
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youlikeny

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Re: ¿Will Pocket Cinema Camera 4K include CinemaDNG again?

PostFri May 17, 2019 1:10 pm

MishaEngel wrote:
youlikeny wrote:
Alexa 65's pro res isn't the best you've seen?

You realize that the Alexa 65 doesn't record in ProRes, right? So how did you see it exactly?


Yes I do..., for high end work, ARRI, RED and SONY use RAW, not prores.
Prores is nice for proxies, when you have a weak GPU or when you lack the ... to work with anything other than a Mac.


Wait, so you just said that Alexa65 ProRes doesn't look that good even if you know that the Alexa65 does NOT record in ProRes?!?! Am I living in an alternate reality or you are just making stuff up?

And you realize that ProRes, like all compressed formats, are heavy on CPU usage not GPU...

So, what is "high end" for you?
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MishaEngel

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Re: ¿Will Pocket Cinema Camera 4K include CinemaDNG again?

PostFri May 17, 2019 1:21 pm

John Brawley wrote:
MishaEngel wrote:
ProRes is well and truly established, that doesn't make it high end to current standards.
For TV work it's fine and often good enough for theater.


I'm not sure I follow the logic.

ProRes is THE dominant codec. End of story.


That doesn't make it high-end, why would apple release ProResRAW when ProRes is all we need?

John Brawley wrote:We're pixel peeping 300% blowups on a codec that no-one uses, mostly because it's entirely impractical to shoot uncompressed RAW.

Who here really and truly actually shoots full uncompressed DNG ? (not 3:1 or 4:1)


The once who need maximum quality and or flexibility in post.

John Brawley wrote:Once it's compressed, then there's really no question at all that bRAW trumps compressed cDNG. It's a more modern codec that's also much more practical to use in post.

The fastest media doesn't even support higher frame rates when it's uncompressed...


The fastest media don't have a problem whatsoever with uncompressed media just look at ARRI with their CODEX recorders. When a camera manufacturer chooses a slower interface, doesn't make the media slower. The U.2 connector is widely available since 2015 and it supports hot-swap.
7.68 TB Samsung PM983 2,5" with a U.2 connector have a continues R/W speed of 2000 MB/s and costs around $1,500, ~$0.20 GByte.

John Brawley wrote:If you really really want uncompressed RAW then Arri Raw is basically TIFF files you can shoot that, or you can go to an Odyssey 7Q+ with a cDNG RAW option and turn any camera into a cDNG camera.

https://www.convergent-design.com/odyss ... -recording

I'd much rather BMD focus on getting more DR and better functionality into their cameras that using a legacy RAW format that very very few actually use and certainly isn't AT ALL widely used in industry, and is NEVER LIKELY to be adopted more than it currently is.

JB


The high-end want's really uncompressed RAW, that is one of the reasons they use ARRI.

For us, we are very happy with the change from cDNG to BRAW. BRAW is lower on resources than cDNG or ProRes, which saved us a lot of money not having to invest in some new workstations. To bad intel spoiled it with their new MDS leaks.
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Tim Kraemer

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Re: ¿Will Pocket Cinema Camera 4K include CinemaDNG again?

PostFri May 17, 2019 1:50 pm

Australian Image wrote:OK, so you've sworn against ever getting the BMPCC4K because now without CDNG, you can no longer produce cinematic movies, just amateur crap.

But that's good, as it means that there's one less person that has to wait to get theirs. I'm sure that Blackmagic is shaking in their boots by this loss. :D


This kind of attack is really not necessary.
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Tim Kraemer

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Re: ¿Will Pocket Cinema Camera 4K include CinemaDNG again?

PostFri May 17, 2019 2:06 pm

John Brawley wrote:Who here really and truly actually shoots full uncompressed DNG ? (not 3:1 or 4:1)

There are some of us that do forensic work, but I am not sure its worth handicapping the entire platform for this edge case scenario.

John Brawley wrote:I'd much rather BMD focus on getting more DR and better functionality into their cameras that using a legacy RAW format that very very few actually use and certainly isn't AT ALL widely used in industry, and is NEVER LIKELY to be adopted more than it currently is.
JB

Yes, hopefully with more CPU horsepower and/or efficiency improvements in the software they will get even closer to the unmolested image that CDNG had.
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Tim Kraemer

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Re: ¿Will Pocket Cinema Camera 4K include CinemaDNG again?

PostFri May 17, 2019 2:32 pm

Valery Axenov wrote:So, again the main difference between CDNG LossLess vs BRAW Q0 if you examine your images is in critical resolution. That's the matter of fact. No matter you shoot moving or still object (some times in movie you shoot still images (objects)). With BRAW you deal with soft image. With CDNG you deal with clean good micro contrast and resolution image.

So for me difference in critical resolution and micro contrast (attached pic.) is like a difference between Leitz Summicron 50/1.4 and cheap no name lens with low resolution and bad micro contrast.

I thing that BRAW should be improved from that point of view. Or in any case users should have an option to use or not to use the best resolution of attached lens.
BM Raw 3.png


How close to the original would you say that image is in percentage? 95% to 98%? When developing software to perfection, usually that last 5% can take 70% of the effort. And since this is the initial version of the software, I am willing to assert that Blackmagic software team will likely get the image quality another 2 percentage points closer to the original, and maybe 4% to 5% given enough time.

Lets applaud Blackmagic design for keeping the ship afloat and steering clear of litigation. They've gotten ~95% of the way there on the first try. It can only get better from here.
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youlikeny

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Re: ¿Will Pocket Cinema Camera 4K include CinemaDNG again?

PostFri May 17, 2019 2:52 pm

MishaEngel wrote:
The high-end want's really uncompressed RAW, that is one of the reasons they use ARRI.

For us, we are very happy with the change from cDNG to BRAW. BRAW is lower on resources than cDNG or ProRes, which saved us a lot of money not having to invest in some new workstations. To bad intel spoiled it with their new MDS leaks.


Can I ask you what you mean by high-end and where did you see the Alexa65 ProRes files?
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MishaEngel

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Re: ¿Will Pocket Cinema Camera 4K include CinemaDNG again?

PostFri May 17, 2019 3:31 pm

youlikeny wrote:
MishaEngel wrote:
The high-end want's really uncompressed RAW, that is one of the reasons they use ARRI.

For us, we are very happy with the change from cDNG to BRAW. BRAW is lower on resources than cDNG or ProRes, which saved us a lot of money not having to invest in some new workstations. To bad intel spoiled it with their new MDS leaks.


Can I ask you what you mean by high-end and where did you see the Alexa65 ProRes files?


High-end to me means the camera's/codecs which are able to deliver the best possible picture quality which is currently available for UHD, 4k-DCI or IMAX delivery.
For people like Nolan it means 65 mm film negatives, for the digital camera users it means ALEXA 65 - open gate, RED Monstro 8k.R3D 5:1 or SONY Venice X-OCN XT.

ALEXA65 doesn't have ProRes, not even as a proxy file, it's sarcasm.
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youlikeny

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Re: ¿Will Pocket Cinema Camera 4K include CinemaDNG again?

PostFri May 17, 2019 3:43 pm

MishaEngel wrote:
High-end to me means the camera's/codecs which are able to deliver the best possible picture quality which is currently available for UHD, 4k-DCI or IMAX delivery.
For people like Nolan it means 65 mm film negatives, for the digital camera users it means ALEXA 65 - open gate, RED Monstro 8k.R3D 5:1 or SONY Venice X-OCN XT.

ALEXA65 doesn't have ProRes, not even as a proxy file, it's sarcasm.


I'm sorry but "ALEXA 65's ProRes isn't the best i've seen and that is about the highest end camera you can get these days." is not sarcasm.
Let's stop with the hyperbole and talk about things we actually know.
Obviously an Alexa65 or a Sony Venice is better than a Pocket4K, I'm not really sure what's your point.
CDNG on a Pocket4K doesn't transform the pocket4k into a high end camera, CDNG on a pocket4k is exactly the same as braw unless you use it to show 300% zoom plus still images, which was our original point.
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MishaEngel

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Re: ¿Will Pocket Cinema Camera 4K include CinemaDNG again?

PostFri May 17, 2019 5:34 pm

youlikeny wrote:CDNG on a Pocket4K doesn't transform the pocket4k into a high end camera, CDNG on a pocket4k is exactly the same as braw unless you use it to show 300% zoom plus still images, which was our original point.


No it's not, uncompressed cDNG contains almost all information the sensor gives (it's still logged from 16 to 12 bits). BRAW is futher compressed, with compression you loose detail as shown in the pictures.

Uncompressed cDNG only logs from 16 to 12 bits.
ARRI RAW only logs from 16 to 12 bits.
SONY X-OCN XT stays at 16 bits and compresses.
RED has so many pixels that they can stand a higher wavelet compression ratio 8k 5:1 logged from 16 to 12 bits.
BRAW is partially de-bayered, logged from 16 to 12 bits and compressed to a certain ratio.
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John Paines

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Re: ¿Will Pocket Cinema Camera 4K include CinemaDNG again?

PostFri May 17, 2019 5:58 pm

MishaEngel wrote:No it's not, uncompressed cDNG contains almost all information the sensor gives (it's still logged from 16 to 12 bits). BRAW is futher compressed, with compression you loose detail as shown in the pictures.


There's a point where this becomes fetish. Under typical viewing circumstances, you might be surprised at instances where you couldn't readily tell the difference between HD and 4K. Or, if not you, then the general public.

Who, exactly, is worried about the comparatively microscopic difference between cDNG and braw? And on a $1295 camera, which typically won't be used on productions whose chief failing is likely to be a lack of fine detail?
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MishaEngel

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Re: ¿Will Pocket Cinema Camera 4K include CinemaDNG again?

PostFri May 17, 2019 6:03 pm

John Paines wrote:
MishaEngel wrote:No it's not, uncompressed cDNG contains almost all information the sensor gives (it's still logged from 16 to 12 bits). BRAW is futher compressed, with compression you loose detail as shown in the pictures.


Who, exactly, is worried about the comparatively microscopic difference between cDNG and braw? And on a $1295 camera, which typically won't be used on productions whose chief failing is likely to be a lack of fine detail?


The person who started this thread. We don't have a pocket.
And yes we have customers who demand atleast a 6k bayer sensor for 4k output and for very good reasons.
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youlikeny

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Re: ¿Will Pocket Cinema Camera 4K include CinemaDNG again?

PostFri May 17, 2019 6:07 pm

MishaEngel wrote:
youlikeny wrote:CDNG on a Pocket4K doesn't transform the pocket4k into a high end camera, CDNG on a pocket4k is exactly the same as braw unless you use it to show 300% zoom plus still images, which was our original point.


No it's not, uncompressed cDNG contains almost all information the sensor gives (it's still logged from 16 to 12 bits). BRAW is futher compressed, with compression you loose detail as shown in the pictures.

Uncompressed cDNG only logs from 16 to 12 bits.
ARRI RAW only logs from 16 to 12 bits.
SONY X-OCN XT stays at 16 bits and compresses.
RED has so many pixels that they can stand a higher wavelet compression ratio 8k 5:1 logged from 16 to 12 bits.
BRAW is partially de-bayered, logged from 16 to 12 bits and compressed to a certain ratio.


Can you point to the pictures that shows a perceptible loss of detail? Or is it just hearsay?
And can you please explain how having CDNG on the Pocket4K will influence yours or anybody’s workflow?
As you pointed out high-end, whatever that means, projects requires specific camera so what’s the point of CDNG on the Pocket4K? Were you planning to use it instead of an Alexa65 on one of your high-end projects? Come on..
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John Paines

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Re: ¿Will Pocket Cinema Camera 4K include CinemaDNG again?

PostFri May 17, 2019 6:11 pm

MishaEngel wrote:
John Paines wrote:
MishaEngel wrote:No it's not, uncompressed cDNG contains almost all information the sensor gives (it's still logged from 16 to 12 bits). BRAW is futher compressed, with compression you loose detail as shown in the pictures.


Who, exactly, is worried about the comparatively microscopic difference between cDNG and braw? And on a $1295 camera, which typically won't be used on productions whose chief failing is likely to be a lack of fine detail?


The person who started this thread. We don't have a pocket.
And yes we have customers who demand atleast a 6k bayer sensor for 4k output and for very good reasons.


Your clients could just as easily complain that a 35mm film camera is unacceptable. What does that prove, other than some people have requirements that not all equipment satisfies?

As for the person who started the thread -- I think the balance of the argument here is that what he wishes for is all but invisible.
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Re: ¿Will Pocket Cinema Camera 4K include CinemaDNG again?

PostFri May 17, 2019 6:19 pm

MishaEngel wrote:
youlikeny wrote:CDNG on a Pocket4K doesn't transform the pocket4k into a high end camera, CDNG on a pocket4k is exactly the same as braw unless you use it to show 300% zoom plus still images, which was our original point.


No it's not, uncompressed cDNG contains almost all information the sensor gives (it's still logged from 16 to 12 bits). BRAW is futher compressed, with compression you loose detail as shown in the pictures.

Uncompressed cDNG only logs from 16 to 12 bits.
ARRI RAW only logs from 16 to 12 bits.
SONY X-OCN XT stays at 16 bits and compresses.
RED has so many pixels that they can stand a higher wavelet compression ratio 8k 5:1 logged from 16 to 12 bits.
BRAW is partially de-bayered, logged from 16 to 12 bits and compressed to a certain ratio.


Very well explained. Thank you!
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Re: ¿Will Pocket Cinema Camera 4K include CinemaDNG again?

PostFri May 17, 2019 6:29 pm

MishaEngel wrote:
John Paines wrote:
MishaEngel wrote:No it's not, uncompressed cDNG contains almost all information the sensor gives (it's still logged from 16 to 12 bits). BRAW is futher compressed, with compression you loose detail as shown in the pictures.


Who, exactly, is worried about the comparatively microscopic difference between cDNG and braw? And on a $1295 camera, which typically won't be used on productions whose chief failing is likely to be a lack of fine detail?


The person who started this thread. We don't have a pocket.
And yes we have customers who demand atleast a 6k bayer sensor for 4k output and for very good reasons.


I'm just very curious what kind of projects would outright reject any Alexa other than the Alexa65?
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Jamie LeJeune

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Re: ¿Will Pocket Cinema Camera 4K include CinemaDNG again?

PostFri May 17, 2019 8:01 pm

We should choose a codec for more than a virtually imperceptible freeze framed + multiple times zoomed in pixel peeping difference. What matters a whole lot more is workflow, especially in professional production where files have to move efficiently and accurately between various departments that are using different pieces of software. BMD put a lot of smart choices into the design of BRAW so that it supports fast, efficient and easily color managed workflows.

The workflow for cDNG is horrible, in comparison, and I got completely boned by its deficiencies on a recent commercial color job with a tight delivery deadline. Production had shot cDNG, then post edited those cDNG files directly in Premiere Pro. The delivery timeline was so tight that I got an XML and a reference video from the earliest cuts and was successfully using Resolve's "remote grades" feature to have that color work apply to each updated XML they sent. All worked great until they sent me the final picture locked XML files and I ran into a show stopping obstacle because of cDNG limitations. On the final picture locked cut they'd combined different takes or sometimes parts of the same take together into composites to speed up the timing between the actors as a way of tightening up the edit on just about every shot. That kind of thing doesn't come through the XML into Resolve and there was no time (or budget) for me to slowly and manually match the masking work in Resolve. So, the fastest solution was for the editor to export the composited clips as ProRes files in log gamma. And here's where the problem cropped up -- because cDNG is an open format (so no SDK that controls color management like with BRAW) the way that Premiere was debayering and interpreting the cDNG files to log RGB was totally different than how Resolve had been interpreting them to log RGB. So, while I now had files in Resolve with the composites correctly baked in, all the color work I had done was a total waste and I had go back to regrade every single shot totally from scratch.

If production had shot BRAW instead of cDNG, it wouldn't have been an issue at all as BMD's SDK controls how the files are interpreted in post so that every post app that reads BRAW will read them exactly the same (based on the files embedded or sidecar metadata) and the ProRes log files would have been exactly the same as setting the raw controls in Resolve to interpret the BRAW to log.

BMD was 100% right to move on from cDNG.
BRAW is infinitely better for professional workflows.
Last edited by Jamie LeJeune on Sat May 18, 2019 8:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ¿Will Pocket Cinema Camera 4K include CinemaDNG again?

PostFri May 17, 2019 8:25 pm

@Jamie

Completely logical approach to this and I found the same issues with cDNG that you describe here. The deficiencies you describe are the reasons I originally bought the Pocket 4K for prores, which still was a steal at 1300, and cDNG would be used for pet projects or fun projects that didn't require any particular workflows. Petty's explanation of why bRAW was created highlights exactly what you are talking about.

The people complaining about bRAW are not seemingly on this same plane of thinking and seem to solely be thinking on absolute IQ and raw data capture, not workflows or usefulness in terms of a professional workflow or especially quick turnaround projects.

Opposition may have a point, although how important that IQ or data difference is will vary from person to person, and unfortunately I think your words are falling on deaf ears for the most part.
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Re: ¿Will Pocket Cinema Camera 4K include CinemaDNG again?

PostFri May 17, 2019 8:51 pm

Meanwhile the creative world goes on producing great work in formats they prefer for audiences and clients who could care less about any of this.

But hey, who knows...it might make sense in some future bizzaro world where creative work is shown on split screens and regulary paused and blown up for audiences to score on detail.
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Re: ¿Will Pocket Cinema Camera 4K include CinemaDNG again?

PostFri May 17, 2019 9:12 pm

youlikeny wrote:I'm just very curious what kind of projects would outright reject any Alexa other than the Alexa65?


A commercial for a company full of mathematicians, engineers etc.. who wanted it true 4k-DCI output for a certain budget. Eventually we went for UHD-PAL for practical reasons as most high-end screens are UHD.
A-cam: RED Helium at 7k.R3D 4:1 25 fps, Fujinon Cabrio 19..90
B-cam: BMD UMP 4.6k at 4.6k cDNG uncompressed 25 fps, Fujinon Cabrio 19..90
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Re: ¿Will Pocket Cinema Camera 4K include CinemaDNG again?

PostFri May 17, 2019 9:54 pm

MishaEngel wrote:
youlikeny wrote:I'm just very curious what kind of projects would outright reject any Alexa other than the Alexa65?


A commercial for a company full of mathematicians, engineers etc.. who wanted it true 4k-DCI output for a certain budget. Eventually we went for UHD-PAL for practical reasons as most high-end screens are UHD.
A-cam: RED Helium at 7k.R3D 4:1 25 fps, Fujinon Cabrio 19..90
B-cam: BMD UMP 4.6k at 4.6k cDNG uncompressed 25 fps, Fujinon Cabrio 19..90


I'm really struggling to understand... A technology company wouldn't accept an AlexaXT or any other camera under 6K for a commercial? And then agreed to use a UMP as B-Cam? Knowing that a commercial by definition has to follow broadcast protocols, which means heavy compression and UHD (UHD it's not a practical reason, it's the only way you can deliver a commercial)?

And you are telling us that this is the kind of high-end project that requires 6K lossless CDNG because BRAW or ProRes would not be up to the task?

I mean, a regular Alexa was enough for Roger Deakins to shoot Blade Runner 2049, just an example, I'm really amazed that it's not good enough for a TV commercial...
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Re: ¿Will Pocket Cinema Camera 4K include CinemaDNG again?

PostFri May 17, 2019 10:10 pm

MishaEngel wrote:Eventually we went for UHD-PAL for practical reasons


There’s no such thing.

MishaEngel wrote:
Fujinon Cabrio 19..90


All this pedantry about mathematics and engineering and then you use a zoom ?

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictio ... ish/pedant

At this point the DR is also a HUGE dis-advantage when comparing to the cameras you've been describing. Whilst I can accept for some this will matter, clearly you're one of them, for the MARKET that BMD sell too, this is a completely irrelevant issue.

JB
Last edited by John Brawley on Fri May 17, 2019 10:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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MishaEngel

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Re: ¿Will Pocket Cinema Camera 4K include CinemaDNG again?

PostFri May 17, 2019 10:24 pm

youlikeny wrote:I'm really struggling to understand... A technology company wouldn't accept an AlexaXT or any other camera under 6K for a commercial? And then agreed to use a UMP as B-Cam? Knowing that a commercial by definition has to follow broadcast protocols, which means heavy compression and UHD (UHD it's not a practical reason, it's the only way you can deliver a commercial)?

And you are telling us that this is the kind of high-end project that requires 6K lossless CDNG because BRAW or ProRes would not be up to the task?

I mean, a regular Alexa was enough for Roger Deakins to shoot Blade Runner 2049, just an example, I'm really amazed that it's not good enough for a TV commercial...


AlexaXT is a 2k/Full-HD camera rejected by this client and also rejected by Netflix original.

No I'm not telling that, and BRAW was non existing at the time, ProRes 7k in camera is still non existing.

Yes, 2k-DCI blade runner was also good enough to show in IMAX theaters, most of the shots are fog anyway, our task was to shoot for a crisp 4k output which is impossible with all ARRI camera's with the ALEXA65 being the exeption. Deakins even stated that he would have shot it with an iPhone when they paid him enough, fog on an iPhone or an ALEXA65 is not that different.

And it's not a TV Commercial.
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MishaEngel

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Re: ¿Will Pocket Cinema Camera 4K include CinemaDNG again?

PostFri May 17, 2019 10:29 pm

John Brawley wrote:
MishaEngel wrote:Eventually we went for UHD-PAL for practical reasons


There’s no such thing.

MishaEngel wrote:
Fujinon Cabrio 19..90


All this pedantry about mathematics and engineering and then you use a zoom ?

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictio ... ish/pedant

JB


UHD 25 fps (standard European frame rate).

Learn to read.

Zoom was tested with charts and approved by the client.
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John Brawley

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Re: ¿Will Pocket Cinema Camera 4K include CinemaDNG again?

PostFri May 17, 2019 10:35 pm

MishaEngel wrote:UHD 25 fps (standard European frame rate).


Misha, as someone that comes from a 25 FPS 50 Hz country I say again,

UHD isn't defined with the use of the word PAL. There's no such thing as UHD PAL. The frame rate is what defines it.

SMPTE don't call it that. EBU don't call it that.

Type "UHD PAL" into the EBU site and you get zilch.
https://tech.ebu.ch/search?searchTerm=UHD+PAL

MishaEngel wrote:
Learn to read.


Maybe we can respect each other opinions instead...?

JB
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youlikeny

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Re: ¿Will Pocket Cinema Camera 4K include CinemaDNG again?

PostFri May 17, 2019 10:54 pm

MishaEngel wrote:AlexaXT is a 2k/Full-HD camera rejected by this client and also rejected by Netflix original.

No I'm not telling that, and BRAW was non existing at the time, ProRes 7k in camera is still non existing.

Yes, 2k-DCI blade runner was also good enough to show in IMAX theaters, most of the shots are fog anyway, our task was to shoot for a crisp 4k output which is impossible with all ARRI camera's with the ALEXA65 being the exeption. Deakins even stated that he would have shot it with an iPhone when they paid him enough, fog on an iPhone or an ALEXA65 is not that different.

And it's not a TV Commercial.


Ok, this is getting ridiculous, either you are just talking about stuff you read in forums or I don't even know where to start...

A commercial that is not a TV commercial, what kind of commercial is it? Web? Internal? And it's the example of a high-end project that would reject any camera under 6K and would reject any format that is not uncompressed RAW?

You kept saying that ProRes was good for proxies but now the problem is that prores can't record 7K?

Blade Runner was good because of the FOG?!?!?!?! Are you serious? Come on...

By the way, Netflix accepts ProRes...
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John Brawley

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Re: ¿Will Pocket Cinema Camera 4K include CinemaDNG again?

PostFri May 17, 2019 11:01 pm

I have a feeling he’s talking about cinema commercials.

The funny thing is, I see in a lot of cinemas, most companies use two projection systems. The pre-screening commercials are usually on a different (usually inferior) projection system that the advertising company install and service that’s entirely seperate to the main projector that screens the film.

Take a look next time you’re in a cinema. You see two different sources. When you look back over your head.

JB
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youlikeny

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Re: ¿Will Pocket Cinema Camera 4K include CinemaDNG again?

PostFri May 17, 2019 11:08 pm

John Brawley wrote:I have a feeling he’s talking about cinema commercials.

The funny thing is, I see in a lot of cinemas, most companies use two projection systems. The pre-screening commercials are usually on a different (usually inferior) projection system that the advertising company install and service that’s entirely seperate to the main projector that screens the film.

Take a look next time you’re in a cinema. You see two different sources. When you look back over your head.

JB


I always wondered why there are often 2 different projectors, make sense!
But even for cinema commercials usually they ask for 2K prores deliverables... So his point that anything below 6K uncompressed raw would be unacceptable seems odd...
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MishaEngel

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Re: ¿Will Pocket Cinema Camera 4K include CinemaDNG again?

PostSat May 18, 2019 12:03 am

John Brawley wrote:Maybe we can respect each other opinions instead...?

JB


This has nothing to do with opinions

My line:
A commercial for a company full of mathematicians, engineers etc..


And you wrote
All this pedantry about mathematics and engineering and then you use a zoom ?


Something completely different.

How are you and Andrew Reid getting along these days?
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MishaEngel

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Re: ¿Will Pocket Cinema Camera 4K include CinemaDNG again?

PostSat May 18, 2019 12:21 am

youlikeny wrote:
MishaEngel wrote:AlexaXT is a 2k/Full-HD camera rejected by this client and also rejected by Netflix original.

No I'm not telling that, and BRAW was non existing at the time, ProRes 7k in camera is still non existing.

Yes, 2k-DCI blade runner was also good enough to show in IMAX theaters, most of the shots are fog anyway, our task was to shoot for a crisp 4k output which is impossible with all ARRI camera's with the ALEXA65 being the exeption. Deakins even stated that he would have shot it with an iPhone when they paid him enough, fog on an iPhone or an ALEXA65 is not that different.

And it's not a TV Commercial.


Ok, this is getting ridiculous, either you are just talking about stuff you read in forums or I don't even know where to start...

A commercial that is not a TV commercial, what kind of commercial is it? Web? Internal? And it's the example of a high-end project that would reject any camera under 6K and would reject any format that is not uncompressed RAW?

You kept saying that ProRes was good for proxies but now the problem is that prores can't record 7K?

Blade Runner was good because of the FOG?!?!?!?! Are you serious? Come on...

By the way, Netflix accepts ProRes...


B2B commercial.

ProRes is good for proxies when you have demanding files like .R3D which are hard to edit in realtime. To my knowledge you can't record ProRes in 7k or ProRes 4444 XQ UHD with a camera that has at least
5120h x 2880v bayer pixels to get a proper UHD-rgb output.

Blade Runner was good because of a lot of things, not because of the resolution.
Netflix original doesn't except lower than 4k-bayer sensors, I never said they don't except ProRes.
AlexaXT is a 2k/Full-HD camera rejected by this client and also rejected by Netflix original.

Our client had other demands.
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John Brawley

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Re: ¿Will Pocket Cinema Camera 4K include CinemaDNG again?

PostSat May 18, 2019 12:48 am

MishaEngel wrote:How are you and Andrew Reid getting along these days?


OK so you are making this personal now ?

Oh you mean the guy banned from so many forums he only has his own one to rant in ?

The guy who threw a massive public tantrum because he wasn't invited to a blackmagic event when Cinema5D were ?

The guy who complains about not being an insider because of his childish outbursts.

He was so enraged that he wrote an entire rant directed at me...I feel very special.

https://www.eoshd.com/2018/09/why-i-won ... camera-4k/

I think you think I"d be embarrassed by this link, but those that know me know that he's full of half truths, out of context mis-quotes and a truly incompetent journalist. Hence why he doesn't get invited to events.

I wonder if he actually bought a P4K or if he stuck to his guns.

How about we avoid personal attacks and your attempt to shame me from here on and stick to some actual debate ?

JB
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youlikeny

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Re: ¿Will Pocket Cinema Camera 4K include CinemaDNG again?

PostSat May 18, 2019 1:18 am

MishaEngel wrote:
B2B commercial.

ProRes is good for proxies when you have demanding files like .R3D which are hard to edit in realtime. To my knowledge you can't record ProRes in 7k or ProRes 4444 XQ UHD with a camera that has at least
5120h x 2880v bayer pixels to get a proper UHD-rgb output.

Blade Runner was good because of a lot of things, not because of the resolution.
Netflix original doesn't except lower than 4k-bayer sensors, I never said they don't except ProRes.
AlexaXT is a 2k/Full-HD camera rejected by this client and also rejected by Netflix original.

Our client had other demands.


A B2B commercial? Which wouldn't be shot with anything less than uncompressed RAW and 6K?
I would understand if you were laughing off a crazy client's request, but I don't understand how you actually believe this stuff...
Yes, on paper a 5120x2880 bayered sensor will resolve 3840 x 2160, the reality is that unless you are counting pixels you won't be able to tell the difference between a 5120x2880 or a 4096x2160 sensor shown at a 3840x2160 resolution with a naked eye, and I assume your client will watch their commercial with their eye.

And by the way, you started telling us how any high-end project could not be shot with anything less than a 6K camera in uncompressed raw, and now we are debating about the specific request of one client you had? I'm a little confused...
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Jamie LeJeune

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Re: ¿Will Pocket Cinema Camera 4K include CinemaDNG again?

PostSat May 18, 2019 6:15 am

MishaEngel wrote:AlexaXT is a 2k/Full-HD camera rejected by this client and also rejected by Netflix original.

1) The Alexa XT sensor is 3424 x 2202

2) Netflix 4K camera sensor rules have absolutely nothing to do with image quality. The fact that UHD files from the iPhone qualify yet an AlexaXT doesn't says it all. The 4K rule exists because Netflix charges more for their 4K level of subscription and their legal department fears that Netflix could be hit with a consumer class action lawsuit filed by K counting idiots who believe without evidence that the pixels in a 4K deliverable have a direct correlation to the photosites in a 4k camera sensor (hint: they don't). According to some Netflix staff I've spoken with, they may change the higher tier branding to HDR instead of 4K and then they can drop the sensor K count nonsense. Problem is that 4K is easier to market to the masses despite the fact that 4K v 2K is virtually impossible to see in a highly compressed streamed file while HDR v SDR is easy to see, even by viewers who are nearly blind.

3) And considering that this discussion is about cDNG yet Netflix somehow keeps getting mentioned in defense of cDNG pixel peeping, please name any Netflix show that has ever chosen to record in cDNG over using ProRes.
www.cinedocs.com
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David Cherniack

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Re: ¿Will Pocket Cinema Camera 4K include CinemaDNG again?

PostSat May 18, 2019 10:56 am

I don't understand this debate at all. Clearly some users feel the need for the marginally greater sharpness of cDNG. Compressed cDNG is not possible for legal reasons but the camera can, and did, record the uncompressed version. All Blackmagic has to do to satisfy everyone is bring back the uncompressed option. All they should do right now, is announce whether they will do so, and if not, hopefully tell us why. That way those that want cDNG can make decisions, and those who don't, can stop telling those who do why they don't need it. It's all pretty simple.
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Valery Axenov

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Re: ¿Will Pocket Cinema Camera 4K include CinemaDNG again?

PostSat May 18, 2019 11:23 am

Jamie LeJeune wrote:We should choose a codec for more than a virtually imperceptible freeze framed + multiple times zoomed in pixel peeping difference. What matters a whole lot more is workflow, especially in professional production where files have to move efficiently and accurately between various departments that are using different pieces of software. BMD put a lot of smart choices into the design of BRAW so that it supports fast, efficient and easily color managed workflows.

...

BMD was 100% right to move on from cDNG.
BRAW is infinitely better for professional workflows.


All this is absolutely clear exсept one thing how all this correlated with resolution and micro contrast of new codec BRAW. One point is that applied math and ideas do not support resolution close to CDNG codec in principal or second BM think that a bit soft BRAW image will be better for end users. I do not discuss any commercial reasons, sale, etc. I try to understand BM pure technical approach and limits of new codec.

If somebody will offer to the market CDNG with the same workflow. What will happened?
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lee4ever

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Re: ¿Will Pocket Cinema Camera 4K include CinemaDNG again?

PostSat May 18, 2019 12:01 pm

Jamie LeJeune wrote:Problem is that 4K is easier to market to the masses despite the fact that 4K v 2K is virtually impossible to see in a highly compressed streamed file while HDR v SDR is easy to see, even by viewers who are nearly blind.


There are people who have compared BMPCC4K+BRAW to BMMCC or BMPCC+CinemaDNG (I think it was about sharpness) and the result is that BRAW+4K scaled to 1080P is about as good as 1080P+CinemaDNG.
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MishaEngel

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Re: ¿Will Pocket Cinema Camera 4K include CinemaDNG again?

PostSat May 18, 2019 12:51 pm

Jamie LeJeune wrote:
MishaEngel wrote:AlexaXT is a 2k/Full-HD camera rejected by this client and also rejected by Netflix original.

1) The Alexa XT sensor is 3424 x 2202


Yes it's a bayer patern sensor with 3424 x 2202 pixels.

Jamie LeJeune wrote:2) Netflix 4K camera sensor rules have absolutely nothing to do with image quality. The fact that UHD files from the iPhone qualify yet an AlexaXT doesn't says it all. The 4K rule exists because Netflix charges more for their 4K level of subscription and their legal department fears that Netflix could be hit with a consumer class action lawsuit filed by K counting idiots who believe without evidence that the pixels in a 4K deliverable have a direct correlation to the photosites in a 4k camera sensor (hint: they don't). According to some Netflix staff I've spoken with, they may change the higher tier branding to HDR instead of 4K and then they can drop the sensor K count nonsense. Problem is that 4K is easier to market to the masses despite the fact that 4K v 2K is virtually impossible to see in a highly compressed streamed file while HDR v SDR is easy to see, even by viewers who are nearly blind.


Image quality is more than just resolution. 4k is a marketing instrument and when they lie about it they get sued by a lot of lawyers.
A pixel in a deliverable is often derived from the demosaicing algorithm of the bayer pixels. With 3 CMOS it's another story.


Jamie LeJeune wrote:3) And considering that this discussion is about cDNG yet Netflix somehow keeps getting mentioned in defense of cDNG pixel peeping, please name any Netflix show that has ever chosen to record in cDNG over using ProRes.


The netflix thing was not about ProRes
AlexaXT is a 2k/Full-HD camera rejected by this client and also rejected by Netflix original.
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Re: ¿Will Pocket Cinema Camera 4K include CinemaDNG again?

PostSat May 18, 2019 12:58 pm

David Cherniack wrote:All Blackmagic has to do to satisfy everyone is bring back the uncompressed option. All they should do right now, is announce whether they will do so, and if not, hopefully tell us why. That way those that want cDNG can make decisions, and those who don't, can stop telling those who do why they don't need it. It's all pretty simple.


I thought that 'CDNG Uncompressed' was actually Lossless Compressed RAW so it seems like that would still be a problem with the lawsuit.
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Re: ¿Will Pocket Cinema Camera 4K include CinemaDNG again?

PostSat May 18, 2019 1:15 pm

David Cherniack wrote:I don't understand this debate at all. Clearly some users feel the need for the marginally greater sharpness of cDNG.


Am not sure that's clear at all. Do the angriest and most persistent proponents of cDNG here actually own or use the cameras?
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youlikeny

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Re: ¿Will Pocket Cinema Camera 4K include CinemaDNG again?

PostSat May 18, 2019 1:16 pm

MishaEngel wrote:Yes it's a bayer patern sensor with 3424 x 2202 pixels.


You realize all cinema cameras have bayer sensors, right? So what's the point of arguing that they are bayer sensors as if there was a better alternative?

MishaEngel wrote:Image quality is more than just resolution. 4k is a marketing instrument and when they lie about it they get sued by a lot of lawyers.
A pixel in a deliverable is often derived from the demosaicing algorithm of the bayer pixels. With 3 CMOS it's another story.


Can you point us to any 3CMOS cinema camera? Or to any lawsuit where a camera manufacturer selling a 4K camera was sued because it was not mathematically 4K but a bayer interpolation?
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David Cherniack

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Re: ¿Will Pocket Cinema Camera 4K include CinemaDNG again?

PostSat May 18, 2019 1:56 pm

pnguyen720 wrote:
David Cherniack wrote:All Blackmagic has to do to satisfy everyone is bring back the uncompressed option. All they should do right now, is announce whether they will do so, and if not, hopefully tell us why. That way those that want cDNG can make decisions, and those who don't, can stop telling those who do why they don't need it. It's all pretty simple.


I thought that 'CDNG Uncompressed' was actually Lossless Compressed RAW so it seems like that would still be a problem with the lawsuit.


I'm not sure about that. The "lossless compressed" (or uncompressed) cDNG is readdable by Adobe apps while the compressed lossy is not. Other cameras are recording it and we don't see them stopping for legal reasons.
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David Cherniack

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Re: ¿Will Pocket Cinema Camera 4K include CinemaDNG again?

PostSat May 18, 2019 1:58 pm

John Paines wrote:
David Cherniack wrote:I don't understand this debate at all. Clearly some users feel the need for the marginally greater sharpness of cDNG.


Am not sure that's clear at all. Do the angriest and most persistent proponents of cDNG here actually own or use the cameras?


I'd assume that some of them do. I own the camera and would prefer to have the uncompressed cDNG for green screen plates. But I'm not angry about it :)
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MishaEngel

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Re: ¿Will Pocket Cinema Camera 4K include CinemaDNG again?

PostSat May 18, 2019 2:40 pm

youlikeny wrote:You realize all cinema cameras have bayer sensors, right? So what's the point of arguing that they are bayer sensors as if there was a better alternative?


Bayer sensors are great and when you want a true 4k-DCI rgb output ARRI, RED, SONY and probaly all the other manufacuters know that you need about twice the bayer pixels to produce the above mentioned output. Hence ARRI has it's ALEXA65, RED has Monstro and Helium and SONY has Vencie.

youlikeny wrote:Can you point us to any 3CMOS cinema camera? Or to any lawsuit where a camera manufacturer selling a 4K camera was sued because it was not mathematically 4K but a bayer interpolation?


I can't because I don't know the definition of a cinema camera.
Netflix promesis the 4k with Netflix Original.
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youlikeny

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Re: ¿Will Pocket Cinema Camera 4K include CinemaDNG again?

PostSat May 18, 2019 3:19 pm

I’m really totally lost... first you said that the Pocket4K without CDNG was a joke because Braw and prores are not codecs accepted for “high-end” projects.

Then you started complaining about Bayer sensors, but all cameras other than tiny sensors broadcast cameras have Bayer sensors, so I don’t really understand what is that you’re trying to say.

Then you said that all high-end project requires minimum 6K uncompressed raw, but then you told us that you were referring to the request of 1 client of yours, so we never understood what you meant by “high-end”.

The you are telling us that manufacturers are lying when they are saying their cameras record 4K and are liable for lawsuits but can’t point to any lawsuit.

And then you add that you don’t know what a cinema camera is?

And I’m lost on how Netflix is part of this conversation as they accept all sort of 4K cameras and all sort of formats.

So, what is the point that you are trying to make?
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MishaEngel

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Re: ¿Will Pocket Cinema Camera 4K include CinemaDNG again?

PostSat May 18, 2019 3:33 pm

youlikeny wrote:I’m really totally lost... first you said that the Pocket4K without CDNG was a joke because Braw and prores are not codecs accepted for “high-end” projects.


No

youlikeny wrote:Then you started complaining about Bayer sensors, but all cameras other than tiny sensors broadcast cameras have Bayer sensors, so I don’t really understand what is that you’re trying to say.


No

youlikeny wrote:Then you said that all high-end project requires minimum 6K uncompressed raw, but then you told us that you were referring to the request of 1 client of yours, so we never understood what you meant by “high-end”.


No

youlikeny wrote:The you are telling us that manufacturers are lying when they are saying their cameras record 4K and are liable for lawsuits but can’t point to any lawsuit.


No

youlikeny wrote:And then you add that you don’t know what a cinema camera is?


No

youlikeny wrote:And I’m lost on how Netflix is part of this conversation as they accept all sort of 4K cameras and all sort of formats.

So, what is the point that you are trying to make?


About what?
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Anatoly Mashanov

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Re: ¿Will Pocket Cinema Camera 4K include CinemaDNG again?

PostSat May 18, 2019 4:09 pm

Well, I am an open source man and I use CinemaDNG to make stills (I cannot carry a separate camera for stills and Ursa Mini is also too heavy).

So can anybody advice me a way to import Blackmagic RAW to GIMP? Without such feature BMPCC4K is useless for me.

Edit: I know that BMPCC4K is advertised to have DNG stills. Is that feature preserved in latest firmware?
Last edited by Anatoly Mashanov on Sat May 18, 2019 4:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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youlikeny

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Re: ¿Will Pocket Cinema Camera 4K include CinemaDNG again?

PostSat May 18, 2019 4:10 pm

I'm not really sure why I'm playing this game as you are clearly trolling us but here I am...
MishaEngel wrote:
youlikeny wrote:I’m really totally lost... first you said that the Pocket4K without CDNG was a joke because Braw and prores are not codecs accepted for “high-end” projects.

No

I'm quoting you: "Prores is nice for proxies, when you have a weak GPU or when you lack the ... to work with anything other than a Mac."
and
"ProRes is well and trully esteblished, that doesn't make it high end to current standards."
So about that "no"?

MishaEngel wrote:
youlikeny wrote:Then you started complaining about Bayer sensors, but all cameras other than tiny sensors broadcast cameras have Bayer sensors, so I don’t really understand what is that you’re trying to say.

No

Can you please point to a single cinema camera on the market today that does not have a bayer sensor? Otherwise your "no" is pretty silly...

MishaEngel wrote:
youlikeny wrote:Then you said that all high-end project requires minimum 6K uncompressed raw, but then you told us that you were referring to the request of 1 client of yours, so we never understood what you meant by “high-end”.

No

Again, quoting you: "Yes I do..., for high end work, ARRI, RED and SONY use RAW, not prores."
and
"The high-end want's really uncompressed RAW, that is one of the reasons they use ARRI."
and
"what kind of projects would outright reject any Alexa other than the Alexa65? A commercial for a company full of mathematicians, engineers etc.. who wanted it true 4k-DCI output for a certain budget."
Care to rephrase that "no"?

MishaEngel wrote:
youlikeny wrote:The you are telling us that manufacturers are lying when they are saying their cameras record 4K and are liable for lawsuits but can’t point to any lawsuit.

No

Quoting you "4k is a marketing instrument and when they lie about it they get sued by a lot of lawyers."
So there is a lawsuit you are referring to or that you know about or that "no" is an other meaningless "no"?

MishaEngel wrote:
youlikeny wrote:And then you add that you don’t know what a cinema camera is?

No

Again quoting you: "I can't because I don't know the definition of a cinema camera."
Care to elaborate on that no?

MishaEngel wrote:
youlikeny wrote:And I’m lost on how Netflix is part of this conversation as they accept all sort of 4K cameras and all sort of formats.
So, what is the point that you are trying to make?

About what?

The point you are trying to make with your comments? I guess you are not just writing words for the sake of writing them?
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Nick Heydon

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Re: ¿Will Pocket Cinema Camera 4K include CinemaDNG again?

PostSat May 18, 2019 5:53 pm

Anatoly Mashanov wrote:Well, I am an open source man and I use CinemaDNG to make stills (I cannot carry a separate camera for stills and Ursa Mini is also too heavy).

So can anybody advice me a way to import Blackmagic RAW to GIMP? Without such feature BMPCC4K is useless for me.

Edit: I know that BMPCC4K is advertised to have DNG stills. Is that feature preserved in latest firmware?


If you use the stills button, you get a DNG image on your media. It's only while recording video that you can't get DNGs on the newer firmware.
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Chris Mo

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Re: ¿Will Pocket Cinema Camera 4K include CinemaDNG again?

PostSat May 18, 2019 6:47 pm

Short answer:
cDNG will not come back on any BMD camera ever again, they already made an agreement with RED (thats why the pocket und new URSA was delayed so long).

As a result BMD lost quite a strong selling point - not that REW would mind kill a competitor...

(RED holding a very broad patent on any real RAW video format in the US, only in the US as such a patent would not be possible in Europe, but BMD is also a US company and can't get away with it - at least in the US. Thats also the reason why BRAW is no real RAW, its a YCrCb codec that also produces some softness and artefacts like ProRes does.)
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