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Open platform cinema camera. coming soon

PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:19 pm
by ricardo marty
This might be the future even for bmd.

http://octopuscinema.com/

starts at 0:24




Ricardo Marty

Re: Open platform cinema camera. coming soon

PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:31 pm
by Kays Alatrakchi
Oh geez...another one of these?

I wish them luck, but these types of projects seldom seem to gain enough interest, or move beyond the prototype phase.

Re: Open platform cinema camera. coming soon

PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:16 pm
by carlomacchiavello
Axiom
Modular camera with interchangeable sensor, modular component to add what you need. Good idea on chart but when they ti real found many problems about color science and more, far over the simple grab a sensor, put in a camera and record data from sensor electronics.

I Kickstarter it many years ago... then I bought Bmpc4k (the old production camera 4K), they go over, but at today stay on experimental feature, not a real production camera to use on set.


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Re: Open platform cinema camera. coming soon

PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:59 pm
by ricardo marty
Hopefully, someone will make it true. In the video we can how it mixes realtime comp vfx with the footage.
If they deliver that and its good quality there could be a market for this.

Ricardo Marty

Open platform cinema camera. coming soon

PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:30 pm
by carlomacchiavello
ricardo marty wrote:Hopefully, someone will make it true. In the video we can how it mixes realtime comp vfx with the footage.
If they deliver that and its good quality there could be a market for this.

Ricardo Marty


I hope for them that is produceable in a quantity for the future.
Develop a single product is not simple, delivery a small quantity of it with good quality check and a affordable price is not simple.
In the market I see since 40 or 45 different project of cameras in the last 20 years that never arrive on market or arrive with price not affordable for the masses.
The only one I saw was DigitalBolex, all good but bad design. Good cameras but with cheap desig. (Imitation of consumer bolex) but cost too much for consumer and pro wan’t to use for some limitation.
Good for nostalgic people, for hipster but no more.
I was afraid when they declare to be out of business, I hoped a lot that they can develop a 2.0 generation for pro line.
I hope this project have more business plan and more funds to put camera to large production and be another interesting tool for shooting.


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Re: Open platform cinema camera. coming soon

PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:36 pm
by Csaba Nagy
I see this project has having to potential to have a better foothold out of the gate than some of the other attempts at this concept.

Mainly cause they're using very standard, "off-the-shelf" components on the hardware side. Hardware is very "hard" to do well. They've offloaded that from themselves to a degree.

I'm hopeful for Apertus to eventually reach their goals and fulfill their promises of an open-source camera. But they certainly have it harder given they want to design a lot of it from scratch.

This is an industrial sensor block with a PCI-E connection to a powerful mobile "laptop" in essence. Which by all means should work fine. ( will be power hungry ) so with that out of the way, their big focus should be creating a great user experience in software and delivering it in a good usable/ergonomic package...Yea it shouldn't be white... :lol:

Re: Open platform cinema camera. coming soon

PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:04 pm
by ricardo marty
Csaba Nagy wrote:I see this project has having to potential to have a better foothold out of the gate than some of the other attempts at this concept.

Mainly cause they're using very standard, "off-the-shelf" components on the hardware side. Hardware is very "hard" to do well. They've offloaded that from themselves to a degree.

I'm hopeful for Apertus to eventually reach their goals and fulfill their promises of an open-source camera. But they certainly have it harder given they want to design a lot of it from scratch.

This is an industrial sensor block with a PCI-E connection to a powerful mobile "laptop" in essence. Which by all means should work fine. ( will be power hungry ) so with that out of the way, their big focus should be creating a great user experience in software and delivering it in a good usable/ergonomic package...Yea it shouldn't be white... :lol:


Yes, I agree. Hope they have different colors. I'll order one in REd so I can boast of having a red camera. :D


Ricardo Marty :D

Re: Open platform cinema camera. coming soon

PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:12 pm
by Brad Hurley
Australian Image wrote:You can then have a red octopus camera with a tentacle sync. :)


And if you then if you and a friend trade sensors for it you could call that a squid pro quo.

Re: Open platform cinema camera. coming soon

PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2019 12:27 am
by Robert Niessner
Well, we all have witnessed how well an interchangeable sensor module worked out with Blackmagic's turret. And what happend to the modular mobile phone, when even Google with all its resources had to give up that project. And as soon as you are hitting bandwidth or processing power limits, a modular approach won't help - because then basically you have to exchange every single part.

Re: Open platform cinema camera. coming soon

PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:41 am
by Csaba Nagy
Robert Niessner wrote:Well, we all have witnessed how well an interchangeable sensor module worked out with Blackmagic's turret. And what happend to the modular mobile phone, when even Google with all its resources had to give up that project. And as soon as you are hitting bandwidth or processing power limits, a modular approach won't help - because then basically you have to exchange every single part.


I would argue this concept isn't very comparable to those because in each of those instances the company in question, were designing their modular systems from the ground up. There were no standards for interchangeable sensors so BMD for ex made their own way. For whatever reason, we can speculate for days ( thermals, signal integrity, processing ) it turned out being much more complicated and hard to design for.

What octopus is doing building around very common 3rd party industrial sensor modules. These are typically used in manufacturing, surveillance, etc...

You plug them in a computer over PCI-Express or USB 3.1 and with their included software packages you can pipe the image data right into a PC. Or in this case an Intel based mini PC.

So no I don't see the same hurdles here necessarily, they are going through an established/standardized means so they cut out all the overhead and headaches of designing this modularity themselves.

One of drawbacks of this I'm going to speculate is cost. The "all-in-one" nature of those sensor modules I would think makes them cost a lot more than it would equivalent to building the sensor onto your own product from scratch.

You also limit yourself to what the 3rd party sensor manufacturer has in terms of catalog. You will only have so many sensors to choose from.

Also I think it's going to quite a hefty cost to buy into this Octopus camera system overall, especially with the volumes they will be selling at initially.

Re: Open platform cinema camera. coming soon

PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:03 am
by Hendrik Proosa
One could probably assemble a full modular open source cinema camera from parts salvaged from already dead open source cinema camera projects.

I'm not sure swapping just a sensor will give any real benefit. If you want to make a diffence in resolution you will increase all the other requirements also, so you also swap the computer part, firmware, cabling etc? Sure there are people who assemble whole cars from scratch but doesn't seem like a far-flying idea for actual production. For tinkering it is nice but tinkerers can buy all these off the shelf parts off the shelf right now already.

Re: Open platform cinema camera. coming soon

PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:31 am
by John Brawley
Open source cameras have been around a while. With seemingly very little progress.

Hello Axiom for starters. They have been going for years and seem to make steps forward but are also seemingly not making a lot of headway.

And modular...well.

We’ve had this chat before with armchair experts on forums who think cameras are made of commodity items you can just plug together.

They’re not. And making it modular makes it even more complicated.

I wish these guys the best because innovation is always desired and welcomed but they have a very very big and expensive challenge ahead.

JB

Re: Open platform cinema camera. coming soon

PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:34 pm
by carlomacchiavello
A fact that you describe a modular camera like a modular computer is hilarious, the main problems of computers is exactly the modularity that causes problems of Os, of driver to manage hardware and stability of all.
In the last 40 years I saw exactly how computer fail progressively on stability for this reasons. And not only, modular and variable on hardware mean also a waste of processing power and more consumption ...

Exactly what I want to avoid on a work tool :
Too much power consumption
Too much processing power needing
Instability due different hardware support
Some problems of connection between modular that could cause interruption or problems



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Re: Open platform cinema camera. coming soon

PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:51 pm
by Rakesh Malik
Csaba Nagy wrote:What octopus is doing building around very common 3rd party industrial sensor modules. These are typically used in manufacturing, surveillance, etc...

You plug them in a computer over PCI-Express or USB 3.1 and with their included software packages you can pipe the image data right into a PC. Or in this case an Intel based mini PC.


Then go build one yourself and report back to us about how easy it was.

Good luck... you're going to need it.

Re: Open platform cinema camera. coming soon

PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:31 pm
by Csaba Nagy
Rakesh Malik wrote:
Csaba Nagy wrote:What octopus is doing building around very common 3rd party industrial sensor modules. These are typically used in manufacturing, surveillance, etc...

You plug them in a computer over PCI-Express or USB 3.1 and with their included software packages you can pipe the image data right into a PC. Or in this case an Intel based mini PC.


Then go build one yourself and report back to us about how easy it was.

Good luck... you're going to need it.


Not sure how you pulled that "doing this would be easy" from those two parts of my statement or that I could do it?

I'm however describing Octopus approach ( at a high level ) vs the other open source cinema camera ( Axiom ) and feel Octopus has put themselves into a better position to reach their end goal sooner. Launching into market.

We can have high level discussion here, do you think that's unreasonable?

Re: Open platform cinema camera. coming soon

PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:49 pm
by Rakesh Malik
Csaba Nagy wrote:Not sure how you pulled that "doing this would be easy" from those two parts of my statement or that I could do it?


It's pretty clear in what you wrote...

I'm however describing Octopus approach ( at a high level ) vs the other open source cinema camera ( Axiom ) and feel Octopus has put themselves into a better position to reach their end goal sooner. Launching into market.

We can have high level discussion here, do you think that's unreasonable?


That's probably wishful thinking, because there will always be people derailing the discussion with the belief that all it takes is a sensor, a data connection, and a computer of some kind.

Re: Open platform cinema camera. coming soon

PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:02 pm
by John Brawley

Re: Open platform cinema camera. coming soon

PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:13 pm
by Jamie LeJeune
John Brawley wrote:Open source cameras have been around a while. With seemingly very little progress.

Hello Axiom for starters. They have been going for years and seem to make steps forward but are also seemingly not making a lot of headway.

And modular...well.

We’ve had this chat before with armchair experts on forums who think cameras are made of commodity items you can just plug together.

They’re not. And making it modular makes it even more complicated.

I wish these guys the best because innovation is always desired and welcomed but they have a very very big and expensive challenge ahead.

JB
Very well put.

Elements of a digital cinema camera that require more than just combining commodity items are developing the OS for the camera, developing codecs, and building in color management.

BMD has a come a long way in those areas. The camera OS is fantastic and BRAW is an extremely efficient raw codec with very flexible color management that delivers a simple, painless post workflow where color choices easily travel from the DP all the way through to the final color grade.

What will the workflow and color management be like in these modular open source cameras if they do someday make it into production?

Re: Open platform cinema camera. coming soon

PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:43 pm
by Rakesh Malik
Jamie LeJeune wrote:Elements of a digital cinema camera that require more than just combining commodity items are developing the OS for the camera, developing codecs, and building in color management.


Let's not forget that BMD didn't figure out color science from scratch, either. Buying DaVinci Systems was brilliant not just to get the market, but also for the knowledge of color science that the DaVinci team brought with it.

And let's not forget that even though AJA had a lot of technical knowhow before it started building the Cion, the color science out the gate STILL fell flat on its face.

BMD has a come a long way in those areas. The camera OS is fantastic and BRAW is an extremely efficient raw codec with very flexible color management that delivers a simple, painless post workflow where color choices easily travel from the DP all the way through to the final color grade.


And how long did it take to develop and launch braw? It's not like BMD didn't know what it was doing... R&D takes time. I'm sure BMD had some false starts in there, where it discovered that it had headed down a road that wasn't going to pan out and had to rethink things. The end result turned out great obviously, but we don't get to see the journey the team went through to get there.