What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

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John Paines

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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostSat Aug 10, 2019 9:33 pm

Australian Image wrote:As I mentioned, I use a number of cameras, four to be exact, and RCM is pointless in this case as it doesn't cater for those other cameras and it's not possible to have multiple settings (as far as I know).


Gawd forgive me, I swore I wouldn't say another word, but this is beyond crazy. The other cameras you're using, like the TG5, only record in rec. 709 color space, so the footage doesn't need normalization. It's already in the correct color space, like video from any consumer camera.

But, unfortunately, you neglected to tell anyone that you're weren't talking about the BMPCC 4K. So the rest of us were advising you on the correct approach to the BMPCC 4K, while you were insisting that your consumer cameras don't require such processing. And they don't. They require, and allow, relatively little color correction. Because they don't record log.

On the same note, the videos you're posting here are evidently shot with rec. 709 profiles, on cameras with consumer-level in-camera processing -- they're not tests of color correction ability from log files. If they're meant as proof of your ability to normalize log footage manually, the problem is, they're not log.

Finally, you're mistaken in saying that "it's not possible to have multiple settings" in RCM. That's the whole point of RCM -- you can mix footage from dozens of cameras, each with different log formats, and bring them into a single output standard.

Now, can we have a little sanity, or are you going to claim, to the death, that you're right and everyone else is wrong?
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Australian Image

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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostSat Aug 10, 2019 9:40 pm

I made it quite clear that I was talking about all cameras that I use, if you'd cared to take your time and digest what I was saying.

Again you are wrong, The video I posted here was taken with an E-M1 using their new log profile, a profile for which Olympus even provides a LUT for Resolve (which I didn't use).

And you are wrong again, as you're misquoting me. I said ' it's not possible to have multiple settings (as far as I know).'

And all that I have said is that my method works for me and it's something that others should at least try and see if it works for them.

If you can't even get simple things like that right, how can anyone take anything that you say in any seriousness?

Now let's see some of your work so that your expertise can be evaluated by all. The proof of the pudding is in the eating and all we get from you are so-called recipes.
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John Paines

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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostSat Aug 10, 2019 10:16 pm

Here we go again. OM400log, if you're actually using it on the EM-1, is is a slightly flattened color profile. It doesn't require much to be "normal". The shots can be so close to an acceptable rec. 709 profile, you don't even have to touch them, if you like that look.

BMPCC 4K log is quite different, as your previously posted experiments should have proved to you.

Finally, as I and others have said before, many times, the issue is correct preparation of BMPCC 4K log footage for grading. Skills beyond that stage are really beside the point now. Your insistence on turning everything into a competition, where you must be right and all others are wrong, seems to make it impossible for you to absorb new knowledge. It's also remarkable to me that despite this furious arguing, you still haven't read the manual on RCM ("as far as I know", indeed!). So the fact that you don't know, and admit it, means that you're right even when you're wrong ("I said I didn't know"!).

In any event, several people have tried here to help you, to no effect, and if I continue on this any longer, the moderators will probably intervene. Good luck with your grading.
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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostSat Aug 10, 2019 11:21 pm

One thing I like to add to this discussion. For all of those listening to the 'experts'; they need to understand that the latter have their knickers in a knot because I'm not following their conformist rule book. If what I'm doing works, it's not wrong, it's just doing things differently. But doing things differently, from what conformists rigidly stick to upsets their view of the world.

These are the same people who would chastise old and new film makers, artists, chefs and everyone else who discards the rule book to do things in their own way. These people never dare tread from what they were taught to be the only way to do things. They are scared to make mistakes should they try anything different and live in a rut, never attempting anything new.

They never take any risks, disparage those who do and those who do things differently.
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Dmitry Shijan

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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostSun Aug 11, 2019 12:35 am

And it keeps rolling and rolling...
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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostSun Aug 11, 2019 12:37 am

Dmitry Shijan wrote:And it keeps rolling and rolling...


How's that battery pack rolling?
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Dmitry Shijan

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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostSun Aug 11, 2019 1:43 am

Australian Image wrote:
Dmitry Shijan wrote:And it keeps rolling and rolling...


How's that battery pack rolling?


like this:

Image
Image
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Australian Image

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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostSun Aug 11, 2019 2:09 am

Brad Hurley wrote:You might also want to check out your workflow, for example here:



I overlooked mentioning this video because of all the other noise going on and, whaddayaknow, it goes through the exact process I've been describing. The page in RCM is set exactly like mine and then goes into the colour page to make adjustments. I just choose to use the full res and BRAW default. I can see from here that I can also do clip by clip, but still do the grading exactly like I've suggested (which you need to do anyway). Thanks for confirming everything I've said.

Now, what sort of grading can I do with a battery box?
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Gary Jaeger

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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostSun Aug 11, 2019 4:03 pm

I probably shouldn't get involved, but came across this thread while browsing. For any beginners, if somebody is arguing *against* a proper color managed workflow, ignore that advice. Learn how and why color management exists (fyi it's not just for cameras. It's for VFX, stills, compositing, CG, delivery, etc) and how to use it properly. If you've been told it's just a bunch of old-guard types giving overly complicated advice, that is patently and demonstrably wrong.

I just came off a 6 day, multi-camera, shoot in LA shooting the Venice, and if I had walked over to the DIT booth and said 'oh you guys with your LUTs! It's just not necessary! LOL!" there would have been a loud record scratch over playback while the whole crew watched while I was gently escorted off set by the 1AD.

Learn to do it right. And learn the ins and outs. Or at least try. It CAN BE complicated. And yeah, it can be religion for some people. But to try to *manually* compensate for any sort of log/linear source material vs applying the correct input transformation first is not correct.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostSun Aug 11, 2019 4:34 pm

Dmitry Shijan wrote:And it keeps rolling and rolling...


It's unbelievable, they should reflect on the conceptual relationships of what they are saying misapplied.
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Australian Image

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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostSun Aug 11, 2019 8:44 pm

Gary Jaeger wrote:I probably shouldn't get involved, but came across this thread while browsing. For any beginners, if somebody is arguing *against* a proper color managed workflow, ignore that advice. Learn how and why color management exists (fyi it's not just for cameras. It's for VFX, stills, compositing, CG, delivery, etc) and how to use it properly. If you've been told it's just a bunch of old-guard types giving overly complicated advice, that is patently and demonstrably wrong.


I am following a colour managed workflow, I'm just doing differently to how the 'experts' say it should be done. You have to read all of what has been said to understand that there is simply no argument on my part when it comes to colour management, only the steps followed.

I often prefer to take the road less travelled, it takes me to the same end point, but via more interesting scenery and experiences than just sitting on the freeway trying to get from point A to point B as quickly as possible.
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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostMon Aug 12, 2019 6:08 pm

Just as an update and after a lot of testing. There is a huge difference in the quality you get using "Constant Bitrate - Q0" and almost everything else. In addition ISO 400 does seem to be a magic number. It seems you get the most latitude with color, highlight and shadow reproduction as related to noise and overall image quality.

It's still a mystery what "Highlight Recovery" does, as 90% of shots I try to use it on--That you'd think it would work, based on exposure histogram--it does nothing, while 10% of shots, it maybe helps recover some slight detail. I'm not exactly sure what's going on here. It recovers detail that's been just barely clipped I guess?

Any, big thanks to everyone who has tried to include constructive ideas on how to push the limits of BRAW.

I'm going to post a follow up on some things that helped me after being forced to move from Premier/Adobe -> DR.
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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostMon Aug 12, 2019 6:12 pm

Australian Image wrote:
Chris S wrote:Here are just a few samples of some footage I feel looks completely terrible.


A couple of steps that can improve the effort:

1. Press Alt-S (if using Windows) to create a serial node. Always work with nodes rather than the original file so that you never do any physical changes to the original file. You can create as many nodes as you like and what nodes do is sequentially add the changes that you make to the file to produce the final result. If you do something you don't like, you can delete that node and start anew without damaging anything you've done previously.

2. To begin with, in the colour wheel section, click on the cross at the top left where it says Lift and move the cross to the darkest point in the image. This will set the black point ie, make blacks black. Don't worry if the image goes too dark, that can be adjusted later. I prefer to p[lay around with the settings below the colour wheel.

3. Then click on the cross where it says Gain and move the cross to the whitest point in the image. this will now change the brightness of the scene. Same thing applies as before by adjusting the setting below the colour wheel.

4. The Gamma setting changes the overall brightness/darkness of the scene and

5. Offset expands/compresses the brightest/darkest parts of the scene and if you enable scopes, you'll see how the three colours change when you adjust the

6. The settings below that 1/2 allow for additional changes to suit your own preferences regarding saturation, contrast etc.

This is just a very rough starting point, but will work well is not taken to extremes. Work in small increments and become familiar with each control. If you use nodes and play around with these setting in turn, you'll quickly learn what works, when you're going too far and what looks nice and natural.


Thanks for taking so much time to try and demystify some of this stuff. I get how a lot of basic settings work, it's just a much different work flow vs premier pro/cinemaDNG. Also it seems Q0 gets much better results for dynamic range latitude, IMO after some more recent testing.
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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostMon Aug 12, 2019 8:51 pm

Chris S wrote:JIt's still a mystery what "Highlight Recovery" does, as 90% of shots I try to use it on--That you'd think it would work, based on exposure histogram--it does nothing, while 10% of shots, it maybe helps recover some slight detail. I'm not exactly sure what's going on here. It recovers detail that's been just barely clipped I guess?


If your highlights are blown, highlight recovery won't be able to recover anything. But sometimes you just have to accept these things if the the exposure range of a scene is so great and you can't add or subtract light. It's a personal matter, but I'd rather lose in the highlights than the shadows.

What you can sometimes do is achieve better appearance by adjusting the gain in the colour page, using the scope to bring the highlights down. You have to be careful not to go too far else the whites start looking weird. You can even use the selective area tools to choose areas to work on independently.

Apparently for some types of scenes, the constant quality options may be better than constant bitrate.
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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostMon Aug 12, 2019 11:13 pm

And to illustrate what I noted, I made another video yesterday and while I managed to recover some highlights, it's not always possible.

This video was shot hand held with my (now) 9kg rig wearing gum boots, so there's a bit of camera movement. But noting that even work by people that Blackmagic promotes have more movement, I'm not so concerned.

This was processed in my usual, incorrect, manner and I made it a lot richer than I normally would due to the very dull and muddy, but quite beautiful in other respects, scene:



Think of it what you will, but I prefer to walk the walk, rather than just talk the talk.
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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostTue Aug 13, 2019 1:19 am

Chris, if you follow around here, you will find that ISO is faux ISO here, and shouldn't be relied upon in Bayer raw. There are only two real iso's, and you should expose to them.

Highlight recovery probably uses a trick to use the unburnt out color pixels to guess the burnt out ones, but eventually all channels get burnt out. You might be talking about a couple of stops. So you should expose with that limit in mind. Otherwise highlight recovery is likely to be haphazard and only just shape over exposed regions a bit better. If it had been a 16 stop+ camera, it would be easier to make it look more like what we see naturally. But here, it's old picture work, you have to work it. I see a lot of .. over exposed bark and leaves flat shaded without even curvature and detail, and little colour, and people call that fantastic. On my old 16 stop+ pocket stills camera, I might get grain, I might not get much color at the extremes (very Bayer raw looking) but I would get curvature and some detail. Once you go 16stop plus correctly, it looks mystical, alien something there is a brighter twighlight without much highlight effect. Rather cool. Pity, that nearly 20 year old sensor had a version data speed rated around 720p. Would have been sic compared to a lot of cinema cameras last decade.
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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostTue Aug 13, 2019 1:33 am

Chris S wrote:It's still a mystery what "Highlight Recovery" does, as 90% of shots I try to use it on--That you'd think it would work, based on exposure histogram--it does nothing, while 10% of shots, it maybe helps recover some slight detail. I'm not exactly sure what's going on here. It recovers detail that's been just barely clipped I guess?


Is it possible for you to post examples of where you're trying to recover highlights?
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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostTue Aug 13, 2019 6:11 am

Chris S wrote:Just as an update and after a lot of testing. There is a huge difference in the quality you get using "Constant Bitrate - Q0" and almost everything else. In addition ISO 400 does seem to be a magic number. It seems you get the most latitude with color, highlight and shadow reproduction as related to noise and overall image quality.

It's still a mystery what "Highlight Recovery" does, as 90% of shots I try to use it on--That you'd think it would work, based on exposure histogram--it does nothing, while 10% of shots, it maybe helps recover some slight detail. I'm not exactly sure what's going on here. It recovers detail that's been just barely clipped I guess?

Any, big thanks to everyone who has tried to include constructive ideas on how to push the limits of BRAW.

I'm going to post a follow up on some things that helped me after being forced to move from Premier/Adobe -> DR.

In RAW there is no difference to the image data if you set your ISO at 100 400 or 1000 - it's just a different metadata tag in the xmp file. Highlight recovery attempts to reconstruct a clipped channel from the remaining data from the unclipped channel and as you are seeing if you are not clipping it's not doing anything. I've not seen an difference between Q0 and 3:1 - care to explain what you are seeing?
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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostTue Aug 13, 2019 8:45 am

I had slowly progressed from

- Using LUTs
- Manual Grade
- Manual grade in RCM

and was quite happy, but after having footage that seemed to really struggled with RCM I experimented with just about every setting and configuration and found what I think is the best BRAW workflow bar none.

I went back to non colour managed set up and all I do before I start is go to the raw clip settings and change the colour space there from BM Film to REC 709.

This changes the colours to super accurate and nice looking without affecting anything else.

I then manually adjust primary exposure and usually have a fantastic grade within about 30 seconds.
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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostTue Aug 13, 2019 4:12 pm

So, no BT2100 or DCI? Is there an easy way to make them like those rather then knock off the colour gamut?
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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostTue Aug 13, 2019 6:19 pm

I find that RCM on a project level seems to have a big hit on playback speed for some reason. I prefer to use color space conversion on a timeline node if all the clips are from the same camera and on clip node if I'm mixing cameras. I must say that I let resolve do the gamut mapping (you can't do this manually) but a lot of the time I will do the luminance mapping manually. I use luts at the end if I want a specific look but I have long moved on from using them to do basic conversions from camera to timeline. When we are all shooting linear RAW and not LOG then LUTs will just be for the output look. LOG is after all a workaround for the limitations of the camera codecs data rate as it's a form of data compression.
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Rakesh Malik

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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostTue Aug 13, 2019 9:49 pm

Gary Jaeger wrote:I probably shouldn't get involved, but came across this thread while browsing. For any beginners, if somebody is arguing *against* a proper color managed workflow, ignore that advice. Learn how and why color management exists (fyi it's not just for cameras. It's for VFX, stills, compositing, CG, delivery, etc) and how to use it properly. If you've been told it's just a bunch of old-guard types giving overly complicated advice, that is patently and demonstrably wrong.


Definitely. I've run into people resisting that advice because it's too complicated for them... and their work looks VERY amateurish, so it's clear that they're just not trying.

I just came off a 6 day, multi-camera, shoot in LA shooting the Venice, and if I had walked over to the DIT booth and said 'oh you guys with your LUTs! It's just not necessary! LOL!" there would have been a loud record scratch over playback while the whole crew watched while I was gently escorted off set by the 1AD.


I'm going to prep a LUT for use on set for a shoot this coming weekend, because the director wants his short to be in black and white. So rather than view in color and guess, we'll view in black and white.

That's part of what LUTs are for -- though it's true that you do need to know what they're for and where to use them in order to get the results you expect. IDTs first, looks after, then ODT.

It's actually not that complicated for just a single color space, but if you're making a Dolby Vision AND a Rec709 grade, you'd have to have to ODT's set up, one for the Dolby Vision display and one for the Rec709 display, and each monitor needs its own calibration...

But how many newbies would be attempting an HDR grade of any kind at all yet?

Learn to do it right. And learn the ins and outs. Or at least try. It CAN BE complicated. And yeah, it can be religion for some people. But to try to *manually* compensate for any sort of log/linear source material vs applying the correct input transformation first is not correct.


It *can* be done, but grading is a LOT easier if you get your color management set up correctly. I used to grade starting with log footage, and it was a pain -- once I learned how to get the color management set up correctly, grading got a LOT easier. The IDTs really can save you a lot of work.
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Que Thompson

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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostTue Aug 13, 2019 9:59 pm

Que Thompson wrote:
Chris S wrote:I feel the quality is no different than any other mirrorless camera now. It's very very sad and very disappointing.


I have the perfect solution. Get a new camera.

Have you ever seen anything shot in BRAW that you like? If so, contact that person and get some information. If not, sell your camera. Easy peasy.


I can't believe this much effort is being exerted on this. Either figure it out like the rest of us or get a new camera. It's obviously user error. Simple.
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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostTue Aug 13, 2019 10:09 pm

Que Thompson wrote:I can't believe this much effort is being exerted on this. Either figure it out like the rest of us or get a new camera. It's obviously user error. Simple.


The discussion is actually quite informative. It shows how differently people approach post-processing and how differently people interpret what each other is doing, often assuming the wrong thing. This is exemplified in another similar post in the last day..

But it's also informative to those who ask such questions. However, if people are too afraid to ask questions and others too afraid to pose their views because others start belittling both, you might as well not have a forum. Sometimes all sides might learn something about their own ideals and views.
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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostTue Aug 13, 2019 11:05 pm

Australian Image wrote:The discussion is actually quite informative. It shows how differently people approach post-processing and how differently people interpret what each other is doing, often assuming the wrong thing. This is exemplified in another similar post in the last day..

But it's also informative to those who ask such questions. However, if people are too afraid to ask questions and others too afraid to pose their views because others start belittling both, you might as well not have a forum. Sometimes all sides might learn something about their own ideals and views.


The title of the post is off-putting. It sucks because of user error. Had the question been posed differently, my response would have been different.
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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostTue Aug 13, 2019 11:56 pm

I now realise what's going on here, it's all to do with language. While the eggs spurts keep disparaging someone who has more than 14 years of experience in processing RAW stills files, they have assumed attack mode without actually understanding what's being said. Having used numerous RAW editing software in those 14+ years, from Capture One Ver 1, Lightroom, Silkypix and others that I've forgotten, moving to video and Resolve immediately reminded me of Capture One Pro which is now my default RAW software, as it's so very similar.

In RAW stills photography, you have camera colour profiles, which are akin to technical LUTs and plugins, which are akin to creative LUTs. When you open a set of RAW files in Capture One, it reads the RAW file metadata and applies a camera profile to give you some visual correction (which you don't have to use) before you start editing. Resolve does much the same and is why I've simply defaulted to the Blackmagic RAW option in Project Settings. It will speed up further processing if you're comfortable with the camera profile, but it's not absolutely necessary.

Now most professionals that use Capture One will then do further adjustments using the colour 'grading' tools, including the colour wheels and layers. Some may apply plugins (styles or presets as they are in Capture One), but those who have become very adept at using the manual tools will not use plugins, as they can work very fast doing things manually. This is analogous to using creative LUTs in Resolve and something that those who become very adept at colour grading, may never need. But if they do use any, it's ones they are familiar with, understand the end results and apply them at the end of the grading process, just before output.

As I've said, definitely do step one, but learn step two without LUTs to become proficient at grading and other corrections, rather than relying on LUTs created by someone else that suit their tastes and rarely translate with the same results to your work. And tastes vary tremendously. I noticed in a similar thread where the egg spurts are telling someone that their colours are all wrong, even when that's what the poster likes. When art is controlled by art critics, it's no longer art.
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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostWed Aug 14, 2019 3:53 am

OP,

P4K has 2 real analog ISO's, 400 and 3200. So if shooting in BRAW set to either 400 or 3200 and expose properly. I never shoot anything with the P4K outside of 400 and 3200, but I frequently adjust the ISO in Resolve afterward. This is directly related to the highlight recovery option, which has nothing to do with recovering blown out pixels while filming.

You need to also understand page 44 of the new camera manual. Its in the others but I only have the one that comes with the 6.5 camera update at the moment. The image I attached. This camera has a "strategy" on ISO that needs consideration. This camera is very unique in this way. My experience was similar to yours when I first started shooting with it until I learned about that uniqueness. Once you figure it out its not hard to master, but you will have to take into account more information when deciding which analog ISO to use in what conditions and with what expectations. For instance, know why 1250 ISO is much better than 1000 ISO in low light conditions, with this particular camera.

The video here seems to be right up your alley. It explains everything you want to know.

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John Griffin

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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostWed Aug 14, 2019 4:57 am

Australian Image wrote:I now realise what's going on here, it's all to do with language. While the eggs spurts keep disparaging someone who has more than 14 years of experience in processing RAW stills files,

As someone who has been processing RAW stills ( professionally) for 16 years I have to say that it has very little relevance when it comes to grading LOG source video.
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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostWed Aug 14, 2019 5:13 am

John Griffin wrote:
Australian Image wrote:I now realise what's going on here, it's all to do with language. While the eggs spurts keep disparaging someone who has more than 14 years of experience in processing RAW stills files,

As someone who has been processing RAW stills ( professionally) for 16 years I have to say that it has very little relevance when it comes to grading LOG source video.


Why? Remember, we're talking about BRAW.

And here's a bit of reading or you so that you don't have to explain: https://www.hdvideopro.com/workflow/cap ... explained/.
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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostWed Aug 14, 2019 5:57 am

Australian Image wrote:
John Griffin wrote:
Australian Image wrote:I now realise what's going on here, it's all to do with language. While the eggs spurts keep disparaging someone who has more than 14 years of experience in processing RAW stills files,

As someone who has been processing RAW stills ( professionally) for 16 years I have to say that it has very little relevance when it comes to grading LOG source video.


Why?

OK.....
RAW stills is uncompressed 14/16 bit RGB linear which is very easy to work with when compared to 8/10 bit YCbCr LOG (often highly compressed) codecs. ETTR is the default exposure with stills RAW and as long as you don't clip and keep out of the noisefloor you can do just about anything to it and it and it will respond predictably to the simple tonal and colour controls in stills RAW converters. Colour space conversions are fairly simple as well unless you are converting to CMYK for commercial press printing and it's pretty easy and cheap to buy monitors these days that cover 100% ARGB which is the working and delivery color space.
In terms of workflow then pro video grading has been developed to work within large teams in post production facilities where large amounts of complex working footage has to be processed as quickly and as efficiently as possible and pass between different specialist operators so a standardised set of procedures is essential. Stills are generally processed by single owner operators and are never going to be going through the same large scale industrialised production workflows and any self devised workflow is going to work. When you are processing stills it's obviously nice to get a set of images that looks fairly consistent with regards to colour, tone and exposure but variables are not going to be noticed too much as the media is physically separate. With video clips in a timeline it must be matched perfectly otherwise even the untrained eye will pick up differences (continuity).
I could go on but as someone who classes myself at the higher end of expertise in stills RAW processing and retouching and who can comfortably operate in a professional capacity in that industry I consider myself as a beginner in video grading who would be totally out of my depth in a video production pipeline. I mean I could probably get the result in the end but it would take so long that I wouldn't be commercially viable as an operator.
One thing I have learnt from video grading is I wish I had the scopes and image controls in C1 and ACR that I have in Resolve - scopes particularly.
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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostWed Aug 14, 2019 6:17 am

I've been a professional photographer as well, working for newspapers and other industries since 1980. Even when doing news work, I always shot RAW vs my peers who shot JPG. I simply found it better and faster to make any necessary changes. Plus RAW files gave me much better control, given the often very unpredictable lighting conditions and working situations. My tools were a camera and flash at best.

But we're not talking about the size of the production team, in this thread it's just one person coming to grips with BRAW and producing pleasing results. The simple fact of what I described is that processing RAW still images has much in common with processing RAW video files. The same would apply to processing JPG and ProRes files. Understanding what the tools in the Colour Page do is fundamental to generating quality work, just as understanding the equivalent tools is in Capture One.

And it's even more important if you are a one person operator that does everything. That video clip that I posted above was shot in roughly half an hour (36 separate files) and then processed in around another hour and a bit, plus a bit of extra to find and work in the background music. If Resolve allowed easier rearranging of clips, the work would flow even faster, though much faster now with the Cut Page.
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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostWed Aug 14, 2019 8:33 am

Backing back up the recent post list. Yes, as we are saying, people were speaking from different aims and conceptual angles, producing the argument, I feel. Since then it has become about the absoluteness of each camp, one camp mistaking what the subject was about. I've been on the receiving end of that a lot, pretty much kills learning sharing etc. So, it's important to come at it from the same conceptual angle that's already started. Any other angle is a contrast, alternative to the same aim, or off topic, but is not something to insist what was originally said was about something different than it was and that the other person is wrong for stating it.
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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostWed Aug 14, 2019 3:03 pm

Australian Image wrote:I've been a professional photographer as well, working for newspapers and other industries since 1980. Even when doing news work, I always shot RAW vs my peers who shot JPG. I simply found it better and faster to make any necessary changes. Plus RAW files gave me much better control, given the often very unpredictable lighting conditions and working situations. My tools were a camera and flash at best.

But we're not talking about the size of the production team, in this thread it's just one person coming to grips with BRAW and producing pleasing results. The simple fact of what I described is that processing RAW still images has much in common with processing RAW video files. The same would apply to processing JPG and ProRes files. Understanding what the tools in the Colour Page do is fundamental to generating quality work, just as understanding the equivalent tools is in Capture One.

And it's even more important if you are a one person operator that does everything. That video clip that I posted above was shot in roughly half an hour (36 separate files) and then processed in around another hour and a bit, plus a bit of extra to find and work in the background music. If Resolve allowed easier rearranging of clips, the work would flow even faster, though much faster now with the Cut Page.


I thought you were not supposed to change images when doing journalism thus why so many in journalism shoot in jpg?
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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostWed Aug 14, 2019 8:45 pm

Dune00z wrote:I thought you were not supposed to change images when doing journalism thus why so many in journalism shoot in jpg?


That's absolutely true, you don't materially change the image, but it's quite acceptable to adjust, exposure, contrast, highlights/shadows to produce a clean image. Working in the Australian sun can be horrendous when it comes to getting a clean shot, so using RAW was a great benefit over using JPG.

News photographers use JPG (often compressed) because most news outlets don't have RAW processing software installed in their systems. Some cameras also had woeful burst mode in RAW. Then they simply uploaded their images into the server, often with no adjustment (hence why you sometimes see awful news shots), added a caption and then sent it off to the sub-editors.

I used my own laptop to do the RAW processing and then uploaded the finished JPGs into the system. Many may think that this was slow work, but it wasn't. I could clean up a RAW shot much faster than any JPG shooter. There was also an advantage for me if the sub-editors wanted a larger or even a full/half page shot, as I always had a RAW copy of the image to give them a much better JPG file.

Like my peers, I wasn't shooting with the latest and greatest cameras, so I had to take advantage of what I had. Many would be surprised at how many news and sports photographers use quite old gear. Nowadays the newspapers have gotten rid of most photographers and just give their journos a P&S or they use their iPhone. Sports photography is still partly alive, but even then I've seen journos with a bridge camera taking shots of a game.
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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostWed Aug 14, 2019 8:51 pm

Australian Image wrote:
Dune00z wrote:I thought you were not supposed to change images when doing journalism thus why so many in journalism shoot in jpg?


That's absolutely true, you don't materially change the image, but it's quite acceptable to adjust, exposure, contrast, highlights/shadows to produce a clean image. Working in the Australian sun can be horrendous when it comes to getting a clean shot, so using RAW was a great benefit over using JPG.

News photographers use JPG (often compressed) because most news outlets don't have RAW processing software installed in their systems. Some cameras also had woeful burst mode in RAW. Then they simply uploaded their images into the server, often with no adjustment (hence why you sometimes see awful news shots), added a caption and then sent it off to the sub-editors.

I used my own laptop to do the RAW processing and then uploaded the finished JPGs into the system. Many may think that this was slow work, but it wasn't. I could clean up a RAW shot much faster than any JPG shooter. There was also an advantage for me if the sub-editors wanted a larger or even a full/half page shot, as I always had a RAW copy of the image to give them a much better JPG file.

Like my peers, I wasn't shooting with the latest and greatest cameras, so I had to take advantage of what I had. Many would be surprised at how many news and sports photographers use quite old gear. Nowadays the newspapers have gotten rid of most photographers and just give their journos a P&S or they use their iPhone. Sports photography is still partly alive, but even then I've seen journos with a bridge camera taking shots of a game.


OK thanks for the info on that. Each journalist I have met shoots a DSLR because its reliable, most actually choosing the Canon 1dxmii for example even though the sensor isn't the greatest compared to others but its fast and out of camera jpgs are really good from it. Some LOVE the Sony SLT designs, which I thought was really weird. All of them shoot JPG though so hearing about raw shooting for journalism seemed odd... used to work in TV News but that's not the same obviously.
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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostWed Aug 14, 2019 9:12 pm

Dune00z wrote:OK thanks for the info on that. Each journalist I have met shoots a DSLR because its reliable, most actually choosing the Canon 1dxmii for example even though the sensor isn't the greatest compared to others but its fast and out of camera jpgs are really good from it. Some LOVE the Sony SLT designs, which I thought was really weird. All of them shoot JPG though so hearing about raw shooting for journalism seemed odd... used to work in TV News but that's not the same obviously.


Canon and Nikon are the preferred cameras in Australia (thier AF is superb), with Canon probably the most favoured. I was the only one (that I know of) that shot with Olympus DSLRs (long story). But those Olympus cameras would survive all and any conditions, I could come home drenched to the skin from a Saturday covering football games and my gear would be fine. I still have all the cameras and lenses (which have never had a problem) and use the lenses now with my BMPCC4K.
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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostThu Aug 15, 2019 9:07 am

Well I thought I had it but now I am confused.

I had figured out how to kill the horrible houselights in the venue I shoot one of my interview shows and had added a china ball as the key light.

Now I feel like the UMP shot has less ugly color issues but all the shots are now noisy



I though the noise shimmer was from the house lights but seems like its worse without them on. Is it in fact BRAW ? I don't remember ever really seeing noise in Prores
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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostThu Aug 15, 2019 9:13 am

I watched that twice on YouTube at full screen and can't see any noise.

On a side note, do you use one or two cameras? I've always been under the impression that with two cameras, you have them positioned so that when swapping from one subject to the other, the camera position appears the same to the viewer ie, bot are shot from the same visual side.
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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostThu Aug 15, 2019 9:20 am

Australian Image wrote:I watched that twice on YouTube at full screen and can't see any noise.

On a side note, do you use one or two cameras? I've always been under the impression that with two cameras, you have them positioned so that when swapping from one subject to the other, the camera position appears the same to the viewer ie, bot are shot from the same visual side.



Its 3 cameras, two Pocket 4Ks and one Ursa Mini Pro G1

Currently set up like this

Image

Each subject is set up so that there is empty space in the frame in the direction they are looking to preserve the impression that they are talking to each other. Doing it the way I think you are suggesting would break this conversation visual convention.
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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostThu Aug 15, 2019 9:32 am

MScDre wrote:Its 3 cameras, two Pocket 4Ks and one Ursa Mini Pro G1

Currently set up like this

Image

Each subject is set up so that there is empty space in the frame in the direction they are looking to preserve the impression that they are talking to each other. Doing it the way I think you are suggesting would break this conversation visual convention.


Thanks. I was just curious as I've watched several videos on conducting interviews and when the subjects are opposite each other, the ones I've watched suggest having the cameras positioned on opposite sides of the subjects.
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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostThu Aug 15, 2019 10:49 am

The interview looks fine - well set up and shot - to me.
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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostThu Aug 15, 2019 4:16 pm

Australian Image wrote:I watched that twice on YouTube at full screen and can't see any noise.


I think you tube is cleaning up noise in the comoression process.

About the Australian sun. I've been trying to tell people about 16 stops+ which can help that. There is significantly more energy and at bluer hues in these sorts of latitudes in the mid day sun. Something people from Europe and the US, might not be used to handling. Your journalism use is one thing I had hoped for in a pocket with still features and high latitude ability. If anybody has the actual part numbers for the pocket 4k and 6k, or the near identical wholesale versions, it might be possible to find out what the spec says, and any real time HDR capability?
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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostThu Aug 15, 2019 4:22 pm

Anyway, Pocket footage doesn't really suck, it gives adequate results in real conditions. But, if you are going push it against harsh lighting, you are going get it's spec, and either expose down and accept the shadows, or grin and bare it, or buy another camera. At this stage. There was a guy here, who might gave had a go at trying to expand the HDR functionality, but unfortunately he was really abused, and h e i s g o n e. Sad.


Thanks guys for the grading discussion. There is a dynamic range discussion with linked thread by Dimitry over st my thread, so you know its going be hands on good stuff.
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