What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

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Australian Image

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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostThu Aug 08, 2019 11:28 pm

John Paines wrote:
Australian Image wrote:I disagree. Using LUTs developed by others provides zero learning experience and is exactly why you see crap on YouTube


I'm not talking about third-party LUTs, designed to achieve a particular look. It's BMD's normalizing LUTs, applied in Resolve, which are at issue. Learning to use them is essential for most beginners. If you really "fully understand" the difference, there's no indication of it here.

Third-party LUTs can also be useful. It really depends on the what's to be achieved, and knowing what you're doing.


A LUT is a LUT, it's an output created by someone else, with their view of how the world should look. It does not mean it is the correct view. Once you apply a LUT, you are applying a setting that locks in settings that you can't change later. You never, ever, apply any LUT at the beginning of you post-processing. It sounds like you don't understand the application of LUTs.
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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostFri Aug 09, 2019 12:13 am

Ray, please. You're an admitted beginner, and you're propagating bad information, based in ignorance.

And unfortunately, it's not the first time. If the idea is to drive away people, you're succeeding. Working against the OP's errors is hard enough, without your compounding it beyond repair.
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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostFri Aug 09, 2019 12:27 am

John Paines wrote:Ray, please. You're an admitted beginner, and you're propagating bad information, based in ignorance.

And unfortunately, it's not the first time. If the idea is to drive away people, you're succeeding. Working against the OP's errors is hard enough, without your compounding it beyond repair.


I have been post-processing RAW still files for 15+ years. The concept is exactly the same as for video image processing. Plugins and LUTs are the same concept. The steps for image processing are the same. Anyone suggesting that a new user should default to plugins or LUTs and not learn correct colour grading is doing a complete disservice to the user.
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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostFri Aug 09, 2019 12:30 am

Australian Image wrote:I have been post-processing RAW still files for 15+ years. The concept is exactly the same as for video image processing.


No it isn't. Please take some time to study up on the various ways to normalize footage from log to Rec 709 or another standard color space. LUTs are one perfectly acceptable (and widely used, even in Hollywood) way to do it. Color management (such as ACEs or Resolve Color Management) is another. Custom curves are another. But technical LUTs are perfectly acceptable for this purpose and you're not getting the distinction. Log is not RAW; these are two different concepts.
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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostFri Aug 09, 2019 12:49 am

Brad Hurley wrote:
Australian Image wrote:I have been post-processing RAW still files for 15+ years. The concept is exactly the same as for video image processing.


No it isn't. Please take some time to study up on the various ways to transform footage from log to Rec 709 or another standard color space. LUTs are one perfectly acceptable (and widely used, even in Hollywood) way to do it. Color management (such as ACEs or Resolve Color Management) is another. Custom curves are another. But technical LUTs are perfectly acceptable for this purpose and you're not getting the distinction.


So you too are suggesting that people should not learn about colour grading basics? For someone that is beginning their learning process, they aren't producing stuff for TV, nor are they trying to combine multiple camera styles create one consistent output, or working with numerous people.

You think that someone needs to understand this from the outset to produce video for YouTube? Sometimes it's actually better for someone who is/has gone through the same process of learning to provide guidance, than 'experts' who talk over the learner's head, forgetting that once they were just as wet behind the ears.

Now where is your comprehensive guide for the OP? Rather than two posters going on about how this is all wrong, put in some hard yards and show everyone how it's done.
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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostFri Aug 09, 2019 1:02 am

Australian Image wrote:
So you too are suggesting that people should not learn about colour grading basics?


Normalizing log footage is the first step in color grading basics. See Alexis van Hurkman's Color Correction Handbook or any good online tutorial. This is the part you don't seem to understand. Anyway, I provided a link to the Ripple Training 5-minute guide to the BRAW workflow in Resolve, which I think could be helpful to the OP to make sure he's processing his files correctly in Resolve.
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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostFri Aug 09, 2019 1:18 am

For the OP, here's a reasonably easy to understand video about grading and LUTs:



And perhaps another:

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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostFri Aug 09, 2019 2:19 am

And Google (YouTube), like always, is monitoring what I'm looking at and gave me this:



Why do all of these people keep suggesting exactly what I've been saying?
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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostFri Aug 09, 2019 3:18 am

Australian Image wrote:And Google (YouTube), like always, is monitoring what I'm looking at and gave me this:



Why do all of these people keep suggesting exactly what I've been saying?


I believe this Youtuber is referring to “creative luts”, which apparently some folks hope to use as a magic bullet of sorts.

I bought the very fine Ripple Training advanced course for Resolve 15. The very first thing discussed is having a grading strategy. Apparently, people who get paid to grade do so successfully by first “normalizing” clips by adjusting luminance and chroma values in a primary grade step, before doing a secondary grade on select portions of the clip. Then they proceed to the creative grade.

During the primary grade, either technical luts or color management can be used for normalization. I personally have found using Resolve Color Management (RCM) to be the best starting point.

But this is just one strategy, as I understand it.

Steve


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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostFri Aug 09, 2019 3:28 am

Whether a color management scheme or a LUT is applied, it's fundamentally the same process: log footage is transformed according to a math formula to a different color space. My own preference is RCM -- the manual claims the math is better than through an applied LUT, but it's the simplest and cleanest way to do it and there's no chance of inadvertently clipping data, thanks to improper use of a normalizing LUT.

You could also use ACEs, though there's less apparent flexibility in adjustments than RCM.
Without this step -- however the grader chooses to normalize the footage, color management, LUT or manually-- you'll never get a decent grade. Correct one element, and it'll make something else worse. If you're confident a beginner can normalize manually in the course of grading, refer to page 1 of this thread and have a good look at the result.
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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostFri Aug 09, 2019 4:10 am

Steve Holmlund wrote:I believe this Youtuber is referring to “creative luts”, which apparently some folks hope to use as a magic bullet of sorts.

During the primary grade, either technical luts or color management can be used for normalization. I personally have found using Resolve Color Management (RCM) to be the best starting point.

But this is just one strategy, as I understand it.


They are all referring to creative LUTs, but all of those videos (and many others) all recommend doing some basic correction/adjustments before going anywhere near a LUT (if at all). These basic corrections/adjustments include WB, highlight/shadow detail, contrast, etc, then you can apply a LUT to get a certain colour look, say orange and teal if that's your thing. But you really shouldn't start with a LUT and then commence other adjustments.

RCM is fine, but you don't necessarily need it and, if just coming to grips with Resolve, it's probably better to leave the standard settings alone and learn about the basic corrections first. This is even more germane if all that you're doing is posting videos on YouTube for general viewing. Once you start producing TV shows and feature films, and start working with multiple cameras and multiple users, then start learning about RCM.

Learn to walk before you learn to run, but some are suggesting that you must first learn to somersault, monocycle ride and pole dance before you learn to walk. Working in the colour page is not far removed from working on RAW files say in Capture One (for a photographer), only the controls are somewhat different and that takes a bit of time to learn. But the processes are much the same.
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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostFri Aug 09, 2019 7:56 am

FWIW my 'beginner' view....
I've spent hours watching and rewatching Resolve tutorials. I've spent money on courses, for example at Ripple Training. Grading in Resolve is a very steep learning curve for beginners, at least for me.
I personally have found it easier to adjust my footage using the correction tools than using a LUT.
For me I try to get the shot as good as I can in camera. Of course in situations of a main subject in shadow, while other parts of the scene are bathed in hard, bright sun, are going to be a challenge. It's going to involve compromise, where some of the brighter parts of the image might be blown out, unrecoverable.

Both the camera (P4k) and Davinci Resolve are complex to use properly. If I'm having issues I know it's down to me, not the product. I wouldn't say using LUTs is 'essential' for beginners. If I get my CDNG or BRAW footage right in the camera, I find it relatively easy to get it to stage one viewable in Resolve using the wheels and curves.
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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostFri Aug 09, 2019 9:13 am

You're doing it the right way. Learning how the colour tools work teaches you how things can be changed, what the effects are and also teaches you moderation when adjusting settings. These tools are there for a reason and learning then first, in my view, is what everyone should do. By using nodes, you can quickly and easily go back and try again. If no other tools existed, you could still produce great results with just those colour tools.
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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostFri Aug 09, 2019 11:01 am

Folks, this is not controversial. You can choose to do it the right way, or you can do it the way Ray suggests.

Of course, it's true some skilled colorist normalize footage manually, but that doesn't end well for most amateurs. Nor do most professionals see any virtue or pedagogical advantage to avoiding color management. It's an industry standard, after all.

The proof, of course, is in the product. Then again, asking people to post examples of their excellent grading, using non-standard methods generally beyond the skill levels of amateurs, probably wouldn't end well ("that how I wanted it to look"!).
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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostFri Aug 09, 2019 11:23 am

I think this is a lost cause and I won't add anything more after this, but see this quote from Alexis van Hurkman's Color Correction Handbook:

"When you're grading a project that originates with log-encoded media, your first order of business is to normalize it, using a contrast adjustment of some kind, to take the first step in your grade and to be able to see what you're working on. Your first adjustment to normalize log-encoded media is not intended to achieve perfect contrast; its purpose is to provide an ideal starting point for moving the wide-latitude log data into the 32-bit floating-point precision of your grading application's image processing pipeline, in preparation for more work.

In other words, first you normalize and then you fine-tune.

There are two ways of normalizing a log-encode image so you can start working with it in more depth: using a lookup table and manually."

He then goes on to illustrate how to normalize with a camera LUT (and making adjustments before and after the LUT), using color management like RCM (which is simpler and what I use), or doing a manual adjustment (e.g., setting the white and black points and then building an S-curve with many control points, which is time-consuming).

After normalizing is done, that's when you move on to lift, gamma, gain, color balancing, etc. to fine-tune the result, and then on to secondary grading.
Last edited by Brad Hurley on Fri Aug 09, 2019 11:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostFri Aug 09, 2019 11:28 am

Chris Whitten wrote:FWIW my 'beginner' view....
I've spent hours watching and rewatching Resolve tutorials. I've spent money on courses, for example at Ripple Training. Grading in Resolve is a very steep learning curve for beginners, at least for me.
I personally have found it easier to adjust my footage using the correction tools than using a LUT.
For me I try to get the shot as good as I can in camera. Of course in situations of a main subject in shadow, while other parts of the scene are bathed in hard, bright sun, are going to be a challenge. It's going to involve compromise, where some of the brighter parts of the image might be blown out, unrecoverable.

Both the camera (P4k) and Davinci Resolve are complex to use properly. If I'm having issues I know it's down to me, not the product. I wouldn't say using LUTs is 'essential' for beginners. If I get my CDNG or BRAW footage right in the camera, I find it relatively easy to get it to stage one viewable in Resolve using the wheels and curves.


Great! Now you got it! Only thing left is practice. That, no one can avoid. But you are exactly right on the path now, you showed you're an intelligent guy. I never use LUTs. In the beginning, I didnt cause I wanted to learn and practice. Then, I dont use because now I know how to do my own way. But we never stop learning.

Be sure of 1 true thing: You got high quality tools that are more than enough to let you do great work. Now it is up to you only. And be patient, its not easy and not quick, but it comes and you will love it everyday.
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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostFri Aug 09, 2019 11:40 am

Tyler Edwards demonstrates an easy workflow - also using a LUT right from the beginning.
The grading bit starts at 5 minutes in:



I never claimed it was wrong to use that workflow. I have decent results making exposure, contrast and saturation adjustments myself, once I have applied the correct settings in the camera raw window.

I use LUTs too depending on the project.

Back on the original topic. The BRAW footage in the Edwards video doesn't look poor quality or destroyed by the adjustments he makes in highlight or shadow recovery and contrast.
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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostFri Aug 09, 2019 11:45 am

Brad Hurley wrote:I think this is a lost cause


Boy, is it ever. It's funny to think that the OP actually followed the [bad] advice being given here, even though he hadn't yet heard it. And with such great results.

I believe examples of Ray's work was recently cited in another thread, and as I recall Ulysses posted samples of his grading some time back. It's for others to decide whether they admire the work or not.

However, the proof of the procedures some of the rest of us are advocating need no justification: they're industry standards. If you want evidence color management works, look at a Hollywood movie, or commercials on TV.
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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostFri Aug 09, 2019 11:54 am

I'm neither a film maker or colourist professional.
This was shot on Pocket 4K with vintage lenses (C Mount Kodak) in Q5 Braw.
Once I had done my best to manually adjust the raw footage in Resolve I stuck a LUT on the end to add character - film grain, more saturation, and colour shift.
So, in terms of a 'Hollywood' standard look, no I'm not capable of that level of quality, and luckily it is largely not expected in music video.
Most of my errors occur at the shooting stage. I am not a cameraman and am working in a very dim studio space.
I'm very much a beginner at Resolve and grading in general.
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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostFri Aug 09, 2019 2:08 pm

John Paines wrote:But what's terrible first and foremost is your "grading".

This isn't a grade, this was simply trying to add a little color and recover shadows and highlights. Which is impossible with this kind of footage in a dynamic shot like this. I'll happily send you the BRAW file so you can show me what it should look like?
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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostFri Aug 09, 2019 2:14 pm

John Paines wrote:Boy, is it ever. It's funny to think that the OP actually followed the [bad] advice being given here, even though he hadn't yet heard it. And with such great results.


My point by providing that example was not to say I need advice on how to grade. Or have no clue. Or that that advice was correct or not. It was more to prove the theory wrong. That doing it that way will produce no better results, because the data is simply NOT in the file, luts, grading from scratch or not.

Now can you please add something valuable to the post, like what your thoughts are on why those shadows look like absolute garbage.
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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostFri Aug 09, 2019 2:21 pm

Upload the shot, or a portion of it, to dropbox or other similar service, and post a link here or PM me with it. If you're a recent forum member and try to post the link in the forum, you may need to add a space somewhere, for the forum system to accept it.

No doubt other people here will also take a crack at it. Which is all to the good! My interest is not in making it beautiful, but determining how much data is actually present, and ensuring that this data is fully represented in an initial adjustment -- the starting point for grading.

You can trim the braw file in Media Manager to as little as one frame. Consult the manual if the Media Manager is unfamiliar. Or just upload the entire file, if it's of manageable size.
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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostFri Aug 09, 2019 2:28 pm

Chris S wrote:
John Paines wrote:Boy, is it ever. It's funny to think that the OP actually followed the [bad] advice being given here, even though he hadn't yet heard it. And with such great results.


John this is the original file. The shadows are garbage in this .BRAW file. You can honestly tell me this image has 12-13 stops of DR?

No amount of grading will fix that.

Which brings me to my point about ISO 800 - Is it possible ISO 400 is just the magic ISO?

Image
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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostFri Aug 09, 2019 2:31 pm

I need the actual file. Not a picture of it. Otherwise, this is a waste of time.
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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostFri Aug 09, 2019 2:35 pm

Chris S wrote:
Chris S wrote:
John Paines wrote:Boy, is it ever. It's funny to think that the OP actually followed the [bad] advice being given here, even though he hadn't yet heard it. And with such great results.


John this is the original file. The shadows are garbage in this .BRAW file. You can honestly tell me this image has 12-13 stops of DR?

No amount of grading will fix that.

Which brings me to my point about ISO 800 - Is it possible ISO 400 is just the magic ISO?

Image


Chris, this image you shot has MUCH more than 13 stops in it. The difference between a sunlit area and a shadowed area can go above 20 stops. The problem is not with the camera or the codec, is with the way you shot it. Again, you are relying on the gear to magically do the things for you and you think you just need to press a button and everything will be hollywood. And its not. And thats why everyone here knows you dont have proper knowledge yet. You first need to accept that
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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostFri Aug 09, 2019 2:36 pm

Chris Whitten wrote:Tyler Edwards demonstrates an easy workflow - also using a LUT right from the beginning.
The grading bit starts at 5 minutes in:



I never claimed it was wrong to use that workflow. I have decent results making exposure, contrast and saturation adjustments myself, once I have applied the correct settings in the camera raw window.

I use LUTs too depending on the project.

Back on the original topic. The BRAW footage in the Edwards video doesn't look poor quality or destroyed by the adjustments he makes in highlight or shadow recovery and contrast.


Chris, forgive me. I confused you with the OP.
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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostFri Aug 09, 2019 3:00 pm

Man this thread is getting out of hand... so why not add to it?

LUTs are perfectly fine and used often in professional settings for a variety of purposes. The thing is that you have to shoot for something like a creative LUT in order for the look to be correct. If the LUT is made for a certain Kelvin for example and you don't balance for it, it won't look right until you fix the balance to fit the LUT. Same thing for curves... if you do not expose for the curve correctly, the image will need manual adjustments to get it to look right when using the LUT.

Generally, the fastest process that uses the least amount of labor and gets the proper look is the preferred way to run a production on this front. It is not necessary to manually grade every single shot or grade a project to be completely different from the next. LUTs can greatly reduce the time spent in grading if done right even if the only purpose is to bring the footage into proper REC709 with no creative looks at all. If you manage a lot of a projects per quarter like I do (over 100 projects in Q2), you want a streamlined process that gets the same looks every time with as little effort required as possible.

Make the process idiot proof. LUTs can fit this bill perfectly.

But like anything, it has to be done right. Slapping a creative LUT made for one look that used a certain camera onto a shot that's lit contrary to the LUT's purpose and shot on a different camera will often provide crap results, requiring a hell of a lot of work just to make it kind of work right, and often it looks bad unless you are decent at the helm. This is why people THINK that its a "beginner" thing, when it isn't. Its just beginners aren't great a doing a lot of things, and that's fine.

Its like anything... if you don't know what you are doing and experimenting, you mess up, and that's perfectly fine as long as you learn from it.

Nothing at all wrong with LUTs and when you have a clean, streamlined process, it can be the easiest way to get great looks without even trying in the grade software.
Last edited by Dune00z on Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostFri Aug 09, 2019 3:01 pm

Again, amateur here, but when attempting a shot like that porch I would set the camera to capture the main subject, which is very dark and shadowy. I would then not expect to have great detail in those very bright skies showing through the trees.
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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostFri Aug 09, 2019 3:12 pm

Chris Whitten wrote:Again, amateur here, but when attempting a shot like that porch I would set the camera to capture the main subject, which is very dark and shadowy. I would then not expect to have great detail in those very bright skies showing through the trees.



Contrary to what some people seem to believe, proper exposure is completely relative to the purpose of the shot. If you are trying to capture ALL of the dynamic range the camera can provide, then you may just expose to protect highlights. That is probably what the OP is trying to do since it seems to be a dynamic range test shot, not a narrative.

This camera doesn't have 20 stops of DR. It has 13. I have shot this camera at noon with bald sun and the shadows would not be clean without blowing certain highlights. Of course the best way to combat this is with filters to expand DR, but there is only so much the thing can capture.

What the OP could do is try capturing the same shot with different exposure methods to see which works best and use Davinci Resolve to do the grading since it works best with BRAW and use a variety of grade techniques discussed in these forums and online to see what fits. Anytime you start using a new thing you have to get your head wrapped around what it can and can't do and give time to play with it.

Also the OP could use a different lens as well as the lens used looks uh... let's just say sub-optimal.

I was a bit snarky before because the thread looked like it was another BRAW haterade thread... hoping some of what I am saying can be helpful.
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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostFri Aug 09, 2019 9:03 pm

Brad Hurley wrote:After normalizing is done, that's when you move on to lift, gamma, gain, color balancing, etc. to fine-tune the result, and then on to secondary grading.


And isn't that exactly what I'm talking about?

John Paines wrote:I believe examples of Ray's work was recently cited in another thread, and as I recall Ulysses posted samples of his grading some time back. It's for others to decide whether they admire the work or not.


Keep up the bagging mate. At least I'm making the effort of explaining what does work for me. Sure, some of my earlier grading efforts have been woeful and I'll freely admit it, but if you've never made a mistake, you've never made anything. Clearly, it seems, you've never made a mistake.

And it's really easy to pick bad examples and leave out the better ones to try and put someone down. And the fact is that I'm often using three different cameras, BMPCC4K, E-M1 and TG5 to make various videos and/or combine them, so that there's always variations given what they produce. So in less than 12 months I think I've made a decent amount of progress and as someone that has started completely raw with Resolve, can make suggestions to someone in a similar boat.

So in all of your magnificence, all that you've managed to do in this thread is attempt to disparage me. That['s where all of your efforts have gone. Do you now sit back and tell yourself, 'Man, I showed him!. Where is all of your work so that others can see if you not only talk the talk, but can walk the walk? I think that we deserve to see exemplary work in all respects, given how you claim to be such an expert.

Over to you.
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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostFri Aug 09, 2019 10:04 pm

Chris S wrote:John this is the original file. The shadows are garbage in this .BRAW file. You can honestly tell me this image has 12-13 stops of DR?

No amount of grading will fix that.


Disregard the 'expert' advice that you're getting. Can I suggest that you try the following to gain an understanding of what you can do with Resolve to get good results. Go into the Colour Page and just work with the following, starting with a completely untouched image (I'm using Windows terminology here).

1. Have the scopes open in the right hand panel.

2. Hold the left button of your mouse and hover over the Lift scroll bar under the colour wheel and move the mouse left/right and watch the scopes. Lift raises/lowers the shadows in an image and the scroll bar does that to all the colours evenly.

3. Repeat with the Gain scroll bar. The Gain scroll bar raises/lowers the highlights.

4. Repeat with the Offset scroll bar. The Offset moves everything up or down within the brightness range.

5. Repeat the same with the Gamma scroll bar. Gamma adjusts luminance of the image, so it goes brighter/darker overall.

Play with these controls and see how the image can be adjusted in both shadows and highlights and overall brightness. These are the main starting controls where you try to bring everything into 'harmony'. The exposure range in your image is too wide to get shadows and highlights perfect, so something has to give.

In your case, shadows need to go dark because lifting them too much makes then look ugly. Blown highlights aren't good either, but you're not going to recover much, if anything, there anyway. Regarding the shadows/highlights, you can click on the number 2 at the bottom under the colour wheels and on the bottom right you'll see two boxes Shad/HL, these give you a little more scope to raise/lower shadow/highlight settings.

Once you've managed to get a relatively pleasing result with the lights and darks, you can look at contrast, saturation, colour temperature etc settings in the bottom panel. Small adjustments can improve the look of the image by giving it more contrast, warming things up etc.

This is basically how LUTs are created, you start with an image, do all of these adjustments and then save it as LUT. You can also save this by taking a still of the final results and save it with all the metadata attached. Then all you need to do is use these still images instead of LUTs, they are simple and quick to apply.

If you learn what the controls can do to your images, you'll have a much better start in applying more advanced setting etc, if you need to do so.
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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostFri Aug 09, 2019 10:59 pm

And here's a video from a few years back explaining exactly what I just said:

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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostFri Aug 09, 2019 11:10 pm

Chris S, my opinion about it, the problem isn't directly BRAW, but the sony sensor is the way it is. With CDNG your example picture would not be better. I don't like the BMPCC4K image quality so much and especially in the shadow area you can see a lot of noise.
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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostFri Aug 09, 2019 11:58 pm

This is all useless... No source files, no info about timeline/project settings...
Last edited by Dmitry Shijan on Sat Aug 10, 2019 12:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostFri Aug 09, 2019 11:59 pm

Dmitry Shijan wrote:This is all useless...


So is this.
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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostSat Aug 10, 2019 12:24 am

Ray, this is the 3rd or 4th inane argument I've been involved in, in about as many days, over questions which aren't actually controversial (except here). Even when you refer people to established authorities in the field, like Steve Yedlin, who takes the trouble to perform meticulous tests and argue his positions lucidly and patiently, it doesn't matter: people here, with zero credentials, still know better.

In this case, your insistence that using normalizing LUTs and color management are bad practices is just plain ludicrous. It's done every day in the business, and at the highest levels. Nobody has to be an "expert" to know that. It's just a fact. If you can't accept it, your argument isn't with me. It's with Davinci Resolve and the entertainment industry.

Anyway, that's all I have to say on this subject.
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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostSat Aug 10, 2019 12:35 am

John Paines wrote:It's done every day in the business, and at the highest levels.

I am sure the minds behind ACES will be very disappointed they've been wasting their time :D
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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostSat Aug 10, 2019 12:36 am

Australian Image wrote:
Brad Hurley wrote:After normalizing is done, that's when you move on to lift, gamma, gain, color balancing, etc. to fine-tune the result, and then on to secondary grading.


And isn't that exactly what I'm talking about?

John Paines wrote:I believe examples of Ray's work was recently cited in another thread, and as I recall Ulysses posted samples of his grading some time back. It's for others to decide whether they admire the work or not.


Keep up the bagging mate. At least I'm making the effort of explaining what does work for me. Sure, some of my earlier grading efforts have been woeful and I'll freely admit it, but if you've never made a mistake, you've never made anything. Clearly, it seems, you've never made a mistake.

And it's really easy to pick bad examples and leave out the better ones to try and put someone down. And the fact is that I'm often using three different cameras, BMPCC4K, E-M1 and TG5 to make various videos and/or combine them, so that there's always variations given what they produce. So in less than 12 months I think I've made a decent amount of progress and as someone that has started completely raw with Resolve, can make suggestions to someone in a similar boat.

So in all of your magnificence, all that you've managed to do in this thread is attempt to disparage me. That['s where all of your efforts have gone. Do you now sit back and tell yourself, 'Man, I showed him!. Where is all of your work so that others can see if you not only talk the talk, but can walk the walk? I think that we deserve to see exemplary work in all respects, given how you claim to be such an expert.

Over to you.


Ok. I can't keep it in my mind anymore :)
Australian Image, if you on learning path with variable unclear image look results, the worst thing you can do is take those suggestions here and there to other people with low level of experience and produce total mess in their heads. Especially when your Pocket 4K video examples graded like they where all shoot on web camera or cell phone and also with no any artistic style and composition talent. Especially when multiple people try to point to your mistakes in gentle way and instead listen and think, you fight against healthy critics by providing some outdated Youtube video tutorials and other random buzz. If you put your own video online this means it was passed your own artistic "moderation", so people have full right to measure your skills level based on in.
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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostSat Aug 10, 2019 12:44 am

John Paines wrote:Ray, this is the 3rd or 4th inane argument I've been involved in, in about as many days, over questions which aren't actually controversial (except here). Even when you refer people to established authorities in the field, like Steve Yedlin, who takes the trouble to perform meticulous tests and argue his positions lucidly and patiently, it doesn't matter: people here, with zero credentials, still know better.


And what are your credentials? I may be relatively new to video, but I have a photography background dating back to 1979. I grew up learning to use celluloid film and later digital. I actually have a BAppSC in photography, so I have a bit of an understanding of these processes. I've also shown examples by others, including actual film makers, who demonstrate exactly what I've been saying.

In this case, your insistence that using normalizing LUTs and color management are bad practices is just plain ludicrous. It's done every day in the business, and at the highest levels. Nobody has to be an "expert" to know that. It's just a fact. If you can't accept it, your argument isn't with me. It's with Davinci Resolve and the entertainment industry.


You don't seem to be able to accept that learning the basics of exposure, colour correction etc first is fundamental to understanding more involved and specific tools and processes. You have to understand what the elements of the Colour Page do before you start embarking on more involved procedures or options.

Anyway, that's all I have to say on this subject.


Good, because all that you've contributed to this discussion is criticism.
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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostSat Aug 10, 2019 12:46 am

Jack Fairley wrote:
John Paines wrote:It's done every day in the business, and at the highest levels.

I am sure the minds behind ACES will be very disappointed they've been wasting their time :D

There is nothing special in ACES. It is just one of the attempts to build universal "one for all" color space transform engine that easy to pair with VFX linear gamma workflows. Compare to ARRI log to rec math curve or BMC color Space Transform, ACES build-in transforms converts log to rec in rather hard way with more aggressive highlights clipping. RED IPP2 math also looks smoother. ACES is rather limited and less flexible for color manipulations compare to native Resolve Color Space Transforms.
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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostSat Aug 10, 2019 1:03 am

Dmitry Shijan wrote:Ok. I can't keep it in my mind anymore :)
Australian Image, if you on learning path with variable unclear image look results, the worst thing you can do is take those suggestions here and there to other people with low level of experience and produce total mess in their heads. Especially when your Pocket 4K video examples graded like they where all shoot on web camera or cell phone and also with no any artistic style and composition talent. Especially when multiple people try to point to your mistakes in gentle way and instead listen and think, you fight against healthy critics by providing some outdated Youtube video tutorials and other random buzz. If you put your own video online this means it was passed your own artistic "moderation", so people have full right to measure your skills level based on in.


There has been no healthy criticism nor any attempt to actually educate in this thread. Yours is more of the former. So you consider a four year old video on using Resolve, by a film producer, to be outdated? Are the lessons by past and famous film makers also outdated? Who knew that knowledge and experience has a use by date.

You don't seem to realise that some of my early videos have actually been taken with little more than a web camera. As I noted, I use numerous different cameras of varying quality. And my views, your views, anyone's views of artistic quality is entirely subjective. But no where have I suggested that any of my videos are intended to be artistic, they are intended to be true representations of events, not orange and teal pseudo-film noir.

Again, I fully admit that my earlier work has been crap for many reasons, colour grading being the least of my worries. But I note that no one has made any comment on those issues when they were first posted, but certainly to use them in debates such as this to make snide accusations. But as I've noted previously, most of those being highly critical, have nothing to show that they can produce what they criticise others of not producing. Going around on forums selling battery boxes is not film making.
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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostSat Aug 10, 2019 1:07 am

Australian Image wrote:They are all referring to creative LUTs, but all of those videos (and many others) all recommend doing some basic correction/adjustments before going anywhere near a LUT (if at all). These basic corrections/adjustments include WB, highlight/shadow detail, contrast, etc, then you can apply a LUT to get a certain colour look, say orange and teal if that's your thing. But you really shouldn't start with a LUT and then commence other adjustments.


They might be, but those in this thread are not. A technical LUT maps one color space onto another, generally to reverse some form of color compression being performed by a camera. They are mathematically accurate to produce as exact a reversal of some change that was made in the camera as possible in order to bring an image into a usable color space. In some cases the curves involved could be quite complex and expecting someone (even a very good colorist) to accurately produce the same correction manually is a fool's errand.

A LUT of this nature *MUST* be applied FIRST, before those other corrections are made, because making other adjustments to the image would result in the image no longer matching the profile that the LUT was designed to reverse.

Since the LUT would be working 1:1 with the source image to map it to a destination color space as would be optimized for a specific camera or encoding, the notion that this somehow results in lower end quality is bogus.

The purpose of using such a LUT is to take nonstandard coloring of log-type footage as produced by a particular camera and convert it into a standard, linear color space for editing. This is not something any colorist should normally bother themselves with - that is why there are technical LUTs.

Others have pointed out Resolve's color management features which basically take a different approach to doing exactly what the LUTs do. That is a perfectly valid option. Trying to discourage beginners from using LUTs and other perfectly good tools in those situations where they make sense is *not* valid.
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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostSat Aug 10, 2019 1:35 am

Ulysses Paiva wrote:Chris, this image you shot has MUCH more than 13 stops in it. The difference between a sunlit area and a shadowed area can go above 20 stops.


I too am thinking this is the actual issue behind the original post. The porch needed to have some fill light added to bring the dynamic range into the range of the camera.

As an aside, 13 stops is more than what most film stocks offer.
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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostSat Aug 10, 2019 1:40 am

Setting up Resolve to recognise the camera and the format that took the video and have the correct colour space is fine, no less than you would ensure that your monitor is properly colour profiled. Would you do any editing in a monitor that's set to factory default?

Resolve already comes with a preset colour science and colour space that's good enough to begin with. If those need to be changed because of what you're doing, then also fine. But why confuse things in the first instance by having someone implement changes if it's not absolutely necessary?

Learning what can and should be done in the Colour Page in the first instance is far more beneficial. Understanding the controls and what you can do with them in the Colour Page is far more beneficial. Understanding the impacts of the options available in the Colour Page is far more beneficial.

And I might point out, why doesn't someone here go through the required steps that they suggest, rather than posting more videos that they believe answers the question. Put some personal effort into it.
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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostSat Aug 10, 2019 2:19 am

OK, let's take this one step further. Some are saying that you need to do RCM before anything, so what settings does anyone new to the system choose? You have a drop down selection, then another, then another and even more. And if you use more than one camera type and want to combine videos, how complex does it have to get? Maybe just leaving this at the default and going straight to the Colour Page might be a little easier in the first instance.

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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostSat Aug 10, 2019 4:50 am

Australian Image wrote:OK, let's take this one step further. Some are saying that you need to do RCM before anything, so what settings does anyone new to the system choose? You have a drop down selection, then another, then another and even more. And if you use more than one camera type and want to combine videos, how complex does it have to get? Maybe just leaving this at the default and going straight to the Colour Page might be a little easier in the first instance...
.

Ray,
For me, it didn't seem too difficult:

1. Color Science: DaVinci YRGB Color Managed
2. Input Color Space: Blackmagic Design Film (I have OG BMPCC and shoot RAW)
3. Timeline and Output Color Space: Rec.709 Gamma 2.4 (a common space to work in)
4. Click Save.

Before RCM, I started by trying to manually adjust the log files and got nowhere. I invested in the Ripple Training course I mentioned earlier. The courses go on sale frequently and I was just spinning my wheels. They have helped my understanding a lot. I'm just a hobbyist but I realized I needed to invest some time and energy to understand how things work.

If anyone needs a good, free, quick introduction to the benefits of RCM (including the incredible amount of time you can save matching shots from multiple cameras), Brad Hurley posted this link in the Resolve forum last November:



I'm reluctant to be critical, and of course you're entitled to both your opinion and your approach, but I feel you do a disservice by telling others to ignore the experienced, expert advice on this forum. To me, that is one of the most unique and valuable things about this particular online community. I, as a hobbyist just trying stuff, can get my questions answered (patiently and for free!) by professionals who do this for a living.

Anyways...

Cheers!
Steve
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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostSat Aug 10, 2019 5:09 am

Steve Holmlund wrote:Before RCM, I started by trying to manually adjust the log files and got nowhere.


I'm not sure why you were going nowhere. I've tried both methods and yes, when changing the settings to what you use, it changes the basic flat profile into something more colourful. But I can leave the RCM as it comes in default and go straight into the Colour Page and do things just as well.

As I mentioned, I use a number of cameras, four to be exact, and RCM is pointless in this case as it doesn't cater for those other cameras and it's not possible to have multiple settings (as far as I know). So going straight into the Colour Page has taught me a hell of a lot about how to manipulate the settings to try and match the outputs from different cameras.

I am only offering another point of view based on experience with colour grading in Resolve, as well as stills photography. The principles are much the same, except that with video there are quite a few additional parameters. Those experienced critics have never shown any of their own work (as far as I can find) so that we can judge how good or otherwise they really are.

And all that they have criticised me on is selective old stuff from my very first days of acquiring the BMPCC4K, when I was trying to get my head around many things related to video. I made a lot of mistakes that frustrated me immensely and getting my head around the camera was one major learning curve. But it's very easy to be critical of someone else's work when you don't have the courage to show any of your own.

My latest video, I think, is a vast improvement and each one that I do has me trying out something new and which points out to me errors that need improvement. Unfortunately our bitter winter (by Australian standards) has prevented me from getting out and doing anything more interesting.

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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostSat Aug 10, 2019 1:04 pm

John, don't bother. Even if you could be perfectly correct in arguing with Ray, it's pointless. I can glimpse you are both talking about things from differing directions, but Ray is very linear and is stuck on the fact that people should learn the basics, and that somebody with some sort of reputation said luts are bad, even though that doesn't really aplly to the sort of technical luts we should be talking about here. The posting of a video titled "luts don't work", is a patently wrong thing to say on the videos part, hype. But there is a guy over reduser who makes technical luts to normalise footage for individual camera models after a lot of testing. I would trust his stuff as a basis. But, on the other side of this debate, is newer abilities to apply things without baking them in, then bake them in at output, allowing maximum flexibility in working the image in relation to issues.


But, you guys are pretty expert, and I'm more interested in designing stuff. What sort of setup do you use to realistically automatically transform your footage into technically correct and linear values, then apply a look on top without wrecking everything, all automatically, then allowing you to fine tune, or change the preferred look then fine tune, all virtually, then commit and output a baked file?
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What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostSat Aug 10, 2019 2:47 pm

Australian Image wrote:...As I mentioned, I use a number of cameras, four to be exact, and RCM is pointless in this case as it doesn't cater for those other cameras and it's not possible to have multiple settings (as far as I know). So going straight into the Colour Page has taught me a hell of a lot about how to manipulate the settings to try and match the outputs from different cameras....

My latest video, I think, is a vast improvement and each one that I do has me trying out something new and which points out to me errors that need improvement. Unfortunately our bitter winter (by Australian standards) has prevented me from getting out and doing anything more interesting.


Right-click the clip in the Media or Edit page and select Input Color Space. Of course, your other cameras may not be listed.

New video looks good to me!


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Re: What are you doing to MAKE BRAW not suck?

PostSat Aug 10, 2019 8:46 pm

Steve Holmlund wrote:Right-click the clip in the Media or Edit page and select Input Color Space. Of course, your other cameras may not be listed.

New video looks good to me!


Thanks and that's been done with a green screen. Unfortunately, none of my other cameras are listed, which is nothing unusual as they aren't something commonly used for video. But that's where learning to use the colour page has been invaluable, and by learning to use it, it's now become second nature and quite fast to use.

And I wonder which courageous soul from this forum (most likely) gave me the thumbs down on YouTube. It's always interesting to see these thumbs down without any comment regarding why they found the video wanting. I guess that's the nature of today's lazy culture where an emoticon is easier than having to actually think, formulate and reason.
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