BRAW is actually Macro-Blocking RAW

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Fabián Aguirre

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Re: BRAW is actually Macro-Blocking RAW

PostWed Sep 11, 2019 3:44 am

Wayne Steven wrote:That's not the issue, but about certain people's constant bad attitude on others, may I add you to the list for trying to subvert away from what really is going on?? I'm trying to bring things back to the topic by reminding these people of their rubbish and to stop it. They come along and do this stuff too much, we would have had a nice conversation by now and possibly finished, but certain people get their negative ego boost by busting into such conversations and poisoning them, thinking they are little black nights on horses. I got news, the black might isn't the hero.


Okay, I’ll try this one more time. English isn’t my first language but I think I have a decent command of the language. Still, most of the time I have no idea what you’re saying— that would be okay, except I’m forced to swipe incessantly past your incoherent, hyperbolic, posts about your many inventions and would-be patents so I can read actual contributions from other members.

You’re deflecting, again. We’re all happy to have a conversation but this is a technical forum and if you’re not prepared to back it up with anything other than vapid statements— with actual first-hand examples— please consider enjoying the discussion as a spectator.

So, back on topic. Are you prepared to share any examples here, from personal experience, that can further this discussion and move us forward? Otherwise, kindly put me in whatever list you wish. This forum is an invaluable resource and a privilege, but your smoke-filled contributions are fogging up my view and I’m happy to exercise the use of the ignore function, as apparently others have done.

Kindly,

Fabian
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Bunk Timmer

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Re: BRAW is actually Macro-Blocking RAW

PostWed Sep 11, 2019 8:15 am

The second node in your node-setup is a LUT.
Does the problem persist if the second node is disabled? Other than that the screencrabs you shared are jpg's which are of little to no use for us to look at. In the lower left corner of the RAW tab you find a command ‘Export Frame’ that’s the one to use if you need help.
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Oyvind Fiksdal

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Re: BRAW is actually Macro-Blocking RAW

PostWed Sep 11, 2019 9:27 am

Yes one thing to remember with nodes in davinci resolve is that changes is done in series where the nodes before effects the nodes after. So if you crush the blacks in the first node, and try bringing back shadow details in the last...well that’s not a good idea. Same if you add grain in the first and sharpen in the last. You also sharpen the grain.
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Robert Niessner

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Re: BRAW is actually Macro-Blocking RAW

PostWed Sep 11, 2019 9:33 am

John Brawley wrote:
Dmitry Shijan wrote: there is also Chroma Noise Reduction that produces halo (color glow) effect around edges of solid colored objects.


Is it that or is this the result of RGB-->YUV transforms ?

JB


John, RGB444 to YUV444 transforms can be be done reversible (or bijective):
https://stackoverflow.com/questions/105 ... sformation
It just requires more bits for precision, which should not be a problem with Resolve, which does use floating point precision anyway.


In the comparison I made between BRAW and DNG I also made short clips with those miniatures and exported those to Cineform YUV422. While the clip originating from DNG showed no halos, the clip from BRAW showed halos - like it was the case in the source footage.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=91802

The halos look exactly like - as Dimitry wrote - when you are gauss blurring the color channels for noise reduction. I think this is the main point for BMD to tackle for improvement. A better denoising algorithm would improve image detail compared to the current algorithm.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: BRAW is actually Macro-Blocking RAW

PostWed Sep 11, 2019 11:46 am

Robert, when you say colour channels, do you mean I respect of Bayer which includes luminance detail, or is respect of colour channels separated from luminance?
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Steve Holmlund

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Re: BRAW is actually Macro-Blocking RAW

PostWed Sep 11, 2019 12:01 pm

Fabián Aguirre wrote:...I’m happy to exercise the use of the ignore function, as apparently others have done.

Kindly,

Fabian


Fabian, that’s about all that can be done. DNFTT.

The “signal-to-noise” ratio of the forum does take a hit.

Your English is excellent, btw.

Steve
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Wayne Steven

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Re: BRAW is actually Macro-Blocking RAW

PostWed Sep 11, 2019 12:40 pm

Yes, and you are apparently both part of the noise being complained about (by myself). We were just off you guys, give it a break? Back to regular programming that those people didn't like.

Tell us more on topic stuff Robert, or others?

Actually how do I block somebody? I'm so respectful of disrespectful people's continued existence, I actually don't use block and can't seem to find it? But as Fabian is lieing and exaggerating add nauseum, and can't apparently read very clear intelligent language (according to himself, some pro) the quality of his work is not worth reading anymore. Being so debased as to agree with his irrelevant comments is also not worth air. I know pomposity when it disagrees with me (usually) :) .


Anyway as you were saying Robert?
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carlomacchiavello

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BRAW is actually Macro-Blocking RAW

PostWed Sep 11, 2019 1:42 pm

levisdavis wrote:Yes, there was no getting through to anyone on the US number. Was told specifically that a supervisor would call back. That never happened: even when this division was confronted with the notion that their product needs help and is being mis-sold to the general public. "Can't even open the front door to show them the outside world."

The macro-blocking can be seen in footage with clouds. Areas where the texture falls off. Areas where true sensor-noise resides. The macro-blocking / spatial noise becomes as prominent as cloud texture. It could also possibly be related to black-shading? Easiest to reveal when playing back faster than real-time; if you're specifically looking to see how the codec breaks apart.

Respectfully, the GH5 10-bit 4:2:2 150mb/s demonstrates none of these same issues; even when un-questionably graded harder / further than M-B RAW.

Here are a small set of "Grab Stills" directly from Resolve. The bottom right area of the screen is what we're looking at: a macro-blocking texture / black-shading texture.

https://we.tl/t-DvEpm9o2KA


Grab from resolve must be a braw frame, a screen grab not give me infos... also compressed in jpeg that create macro blocking is not a good proof of that problem.
i had also gh5 from july 2017, i had a many of shooting with macroblocking when you up the frame rate, or you have less light, to not talk about 180fps 4:2:0 8bit... where you cannot touch continuos color with red, brown or you see blocking everywhere... but if i keep gh5 today, also if i had bmd cameras is be cause i think it had strong point over weak point.
Anyway at opposite i not found this kind of problems in most of shooting did in the last year first on ump later on pocket4k , but i ever expose correctly, Q0 Q5 quality, i rarely push the color behind his limits.
i'm very interest to see shooting (braw frame or sequence) with this problems to understand in what condition (iso/shutter/compression/etc) happened to avoid to fall in it.
Last edited by carlomacchiavello on Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Robert Niessner

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Re: BRAW is actually Macro-Blocking RAW

PostWed Sep 11, 2019 5:43 pm

Wayne Steven wrote:Robert, when you say colour channels, do you mean I respect of Bayer which includes luminance detail, or is respect of colour channels separated from luminance?


The latter. It looks like a blur on the color channels separated from the luminance channel.
But when I find some time I will investigate this issue a bit more in depth.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: BRAW is actually Macro-Blocking RAW

PostThu Sep 12, 2019 1:56 am

Thanks Robert.
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Re: BRAW is actually Macro-Blocking RAW

PostMon Sep 16, 2019 5:27 am

The point of the JPEG file upload is to illustrate 8-bit macro blocking. The same macro blocking is present in the 12-bit.

But, who thinks ahead / forward when we can all complain and do nothing? Anyone? Anyone follow the directions that were posted. I didn't ask that we do. But, it isn't very productive when we can't see eye-to-eye now is it?

Oh, and you're welcome to re-read the post as being an expression for care and concern for others. In the end, we are all sort of in this together; perhaps some day creativity?
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Robert Niessner

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Re: BRAW is actually Macro-Blocking RAW

PostMon Sep 16, 2019 6:20 am

If you want a meaningful discussion upload unprocessed BRAW footage here and provide the steps to replicate so others can evaluate what you said you are seeing.
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Re: BRAW is actually Macro-Blocking RAW

PostMon Sep 16, 2019 6:42 am

levisdavis wrote:The point of the JPEG file upload is to illustrate 8-bit macro blocking. The same macro blocking is present in the 12-bit.

But, who thinks ahead / forward when we can all complain and do nothing? Anyone? Anyone follow the directions that were posted. I didn't ask that we do. But, it isn't very productive when we can't see eye-to-eye now is it?

Oh, and you're welcome to re-read the post as being an expression for care and concern for others. In the end, we are all sort of in this together; perhaps some day creativity?

JPEG has its on compression and we are not seeing full resolution, so adding those two together equals something that’s not accurate, just upload the BRaw file
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Re: BRAW is actually Macro-Blocking RAW

PostMon Sep 16, 2019 7:25 am

Robert Niessner wrote:If you want a meaningful discussion upload unprocessed BRAW footage here and provide the steps to replicate so others can evaluate what you said you are seeing.


I quote Robert, i askwed for a braw sequence or frame to read metadata, to analize the situation to reproduce the situation and avoid it when or whell would happen to me.
i know there isn't the perfection in the world, no camera or codec is perfect, but part of my work is "problem solver", and i often intercept problems finding on forum the problems and analize them to avoid it on set, or on shooting day around the world.
If you cannot upload a single braw frame i cannot find what iso/shutter/iris condition cause to you the problem.
do you think i'm in excess?
ok i tell you a story : in past gh2 h264 at iso 800 had a special flag that in all computer win and mac with installed adobe suite you see a strong rain effects along the shooting, if you decode with stand alone decoder that not read h264 system decoder (a decoder installed from adobe with deblocking setup On) you saw a clean shooting. Under windows you should disable by regedit a special flag and all software could see correctly the shooting. The problem born only at 800 iso, where probably with this gain appear a stange pattern bad readed from deblocking algorithm of Adobe.

The meaning of this story?
All people complain to a bad shooting, the truth was that is the decoder the problem in the unique situation.
In the last 30 years of my experience in video from analogic to digital is that the problem must be reproducible in different environment to isolate the causes and develop a workaround.
I found problems also in Redcode, CIneform, Prores, H26x , mpgX, Dv-X, and so on, but i not talking about worst are them, i develop the correct workflow to avoid it... please share with us the frame of braw to try to reproduce it.
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Re: BRAW is actually Macro-Blocking RAW

PostMon Sep 16, 2019 8:38 am

I posted a link to a thread page with a frame. Don't you guys think it would be quicker and easier to turn on and a record a second of footage changing iso and look at it rather than argue. I don't see much sharing and caring here. And sure, Levi could, but it's been seen before and looked at here, why should he? There are people, who virtually don't matter what you do will load you up, and it is not good enough. It's worth starving them of the gratification of playing with you. I think his simple statement stands as a statement. But Levi, I think at the same time, it would be good of you to show it to them. Sure, it might prove to be a distraction from working life, but they are already wasting your and their own time.
Last edited by Wayne Steven on Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: BRAW is actually Macro-Blocking RAW

PostMon Sep 16, 2019 8:48 am

Wayne Steven wrote:I posted a link to a thread page with a frame. Don't you guys think it would be quicker and easier to turn on and a record a second of footage changing iso and look at it rather than argue. I don't see Mich sharing and caring here. And sure, Levi could, but its been seen before and looked at here, why should he. There are people, who virtually don't matter what you do will load you up, and IRS bit good enough. I think his simple statement stands as a statement. But Levi, I think at the same time, it would be good of you to show it to them. Sure, it might prove to be a distraction from working life, but they are already wasting your and their working lives.


Aha. So it makes more sense to you that he wastes time writing long postings lamenting about an issue than to just upload a source footage for all to examin. Yeah, who's wasting working lives here?
Why should we try to replicate with our cameras in a different scenario when we know exactly nothing about his shooting scenario. He made the claim, he carries the burden of providing the sample for replication. I am tired of this avoidance tactic.
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Re: BRAW is actually Macro-Blocking RAW

PostMon Sep 16, 2019 9:24 am

No, it makes more sense to ignore people who can't look at a frame of footage on their own computers to see what's there. But have to insist on rehashing what has been examined before. Yeah, it will be this little thing, then that, that, that, don't matter it's big. Bit rude and a real hassle. Why help those argumentative people reinforce this attitude. Sure certain people you help without much; issue, and more so the first time. But when they exoect you to spend half an hour to hours of your time locating old threads, we have been in, and they are not unwell, why don't they do it themselves. I know I'm coming down hard, but I've had them asking me to put in serious time for them to amuse themselves in order to get a chance to likely criticise what you find anyway. I'm sick of the mental mentality. It's just negative dismissive people acting like they actually know over the top against people who have seen the evidence. I might ask you to scientifically prove that gravity exists and how it works, but we already know it exists, so we don't have to discuss that when somebody mentions gravity, do we. However, I can't find the name above here, is offering a valuable service here, to find out of it is a codec display problem. So, its worth have a look at Levi.
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Re: BRAW is actually Macro-Blocking RAW

PostMon Sep 16, 2019 11:27 am

Wayne Steven wrote:No, it makes more sense to ignore people who can't look at a frame of footage on their own computers to see what's there. But have to insist on rehashing what has been examined before. Yeah, it will be this little thing, then that, that, that, don't matter it's big. Bit rude and a real hassle. Why help those argumentative people reinforce this attitude. Sure certain people you help without much; issue, and more so the first time. But when they exoect you to spend half an hour to hours of your time locating old threads, we have been in, and they are not unwell, why don't they do it themselves. I know I'm coming down hard, but I've had them asking me to put in serious time for them to amuse themselves in order to get a chance to likely criticise what you find anyway. I'm sick of the mental mentality. It's just negative dismissive people acting like they actually know over the top against people who have seen the evidence. I might ask you to scientifically prove that gravity exists and how it works, but we already know it exists, so we don't have to discuss that when somebody mentions gravity, do we. However, I can't find the name above here, is offering a valuable service here, to find out of it is a codec display problem. So, its worth have a look at Levi.


I have already spent 2 full days making an assessment of BRAW vs CDNG with a lot of samples to download for everyone and wrote done my conclusions in great lengths here:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=91802

If Levi isn't able to do that himself, I won't take his "findings" seriously as long as he doesn't provide his source footage. If you are not able to understand why this is necessary, then to me it seems you have zero knowledge of how a minimum scientific approach to an issue has to be undertaken.

And a "pro" tip for you: there is a feature in your browser called bookmarks for those links you can't find so you don't have to search again for them all the time for hours. BTW, this forum itself does have this feature too.
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Re: BRAW is actually Macro-Blocking RAW

PostMon Sep 16, 2019 12:23 pm

I just saw that while looking for the link I had before. So was aiming to "pick" through that ("zero" knowledge indeed). But I appreciate your effort Robert.

Now, it has been seen/tested discussed before. So, I don't really need to see it again (as with science, you move on to test something new). And if you read down the end of my post, you see me asking Levi to post some samples again. SL you ate licking on the wrong fellow. But, what does science really have to do with not accepting previous known results. If you want to retest them, go ahead. That's how science does work.

Now, in your spirit of unfairness, I could have 10k-20k of bookmarks again. Doing directory structures and handmade tagging and sorting and preference coding (yes I to DL that) is somewhat difficult. So, even if I do have a link, of no real significance, as you come see and go, not expecting to come back, it might be lost in the ether, but maybe somebody else has it, the one with my red rug. Anyway, I am searching through my browser history for the page, but unfortunately my request to them to preserve a record of every time a page was visited, seems to have gotten implemented. So, I have heaps of duplicates of the same forum pages to wade through. They could have made alternative sorting views to avoid the separate views and list the full name (previous suggestion) but I can't do all the thinking for them. I'm not getting important stuff finished, but now wasting hours looking for links. Grrr. With everything happening, I can't afford the waste of time.

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Re: BRAW is actually Macro-Blocking RAW

PostMon Sep 16, 2019 1:02 pm

I don't want to interrupt another emotional and very informative discussion and i really don't remember where is located that discussion and original BRAW samples with macroblocking but as i remember that BRAW sample with sky was overexposed a lot. So blue channel sky gradient was near 100% clipped (say hello to ETTR noise in shadows paranoia) and probably this caused macroblocking because not enough bits for BRAW noise reduction in some areas. Other users on that thread share near similar samples but not so overexposed, and they can not replicate that macroblocking problem.
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Re: BRAW is actually Macro-Blocking RAW

PostMon Sep 16, 2019 1:37 pm

Dmitry Shijan wrote:I don't want to interrupt another emotional and very informative discussion and i really don't remember where is located that discussion and original BRAW samples with macroblocking but as i remember that BRAW sample with sky was overexposed a lot. So blue channel sky gradient was near 100% clipped (say hello to ETTR noise in shadows paranoia) and probably this caused macroblocking because not enough bits for BRAW noise reduction in some areas. Other users on that thread share near similar samples but not so overexposed, and they can not replicate that macroblocking problem.


It was this discussion:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=93737

and there I supplied my own additional test shots which showed no signs of macroblocking.
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Re: BRAW is actually Macro-Blocking RAW

PostMon Sep 16, 2019 2:32 pm

The wedding preparation was an original one, plus I posted a link to some test charts which had an additional close up image full of macroblocking. I'm curious I'
If it isn't macroblocking, but just bad player software (no I don't consider fiddling with options/systems a Quality solution). I remember an advanced ambarella based pocket can. I was filming swallows darting about at a finish line, and also tracking them. I looked at the footage on the viewfinder, and it was just flashing black squares. I thought I had pushed it too hard, but when I got it back to the computer the birds were rendered as perfect little black shapes, like my modeling image break down proposal had proposed (because the swallows are moving too fast to be recognised in detail, all the detail and shading was sacrificed leaving only a dark outlined shape). I was delighted. But the camera screen playback left a lot to be desired. Note, not operator fault, system fault.

In that thread above there is mention of finding jpeg in braw headers. At 3:1, in this day and age of better jpeg compression, it is like what is it doing there at the actual 4.5:1 the encoded video should represent. But at Q0, it is a better compression ratio, so makes you wonder.
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Re: BRAW is actually Macro-Blocking RAW

PostMon Sep 16, 2019 2:37 pm

Ambarella produce SOCs that perform h264/h265 compression - so macro blocking is an absolute possibility.
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Re: BRAW is actually Macro-Blocking RAW

PostMon Sep 16, 2019 2:39 pm

Wayne Steven wrote:
In that thread above there is mention of finding jpeg in braw headers. At 3:1, in this day and age of better jpeg compression, it is like what is it doing there at the actual 4.5:1 the encoded video should represent. But at Q0, it is a better compression ratio, so makes you wonder.

I assume you meant to say DCT rather than jpeg?
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Re: BRAW is actually Macro-Blocking RAW

PostMon Sep 16, 2019 3:49 pm

As soon as I realised BRAW was not 'RAW' I exposed it with more caution when using ETTR.
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Re: BRAW is actually Macro-Blocking RAW

PostMon Sep 16, 2019 4:53 pm

John Griffin wrote:As soon as I realised BRAW was not 'RAW' I exposed it with more caution when using ETTR.


Or shoot Q0 (or 3:1)
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Re: BRAW is actually Macro-Blocking RAW

PostMon Sep 16, 2019 10:58 pm

Andy Coulthurst wrote:
Wayne Steven wrote:
In that thread above there is mention of finding jpeg in braw headers. At 3:1, in this day and age of better jpeg compression, it is like what is it doing there at the actual 4.5:1 the encoded video should represent. But at Q0, it is a better compression ratio, so makes you wonder.

I assume you meant to say DCT rather than jpeg?


No, I meant they found it using jpeg references in it's internal files. Cdng and a number of others just use jpeg repurposed to the data. People are saying it is component video, which inflates file sizes maybe not as much as I think, as the original raw has less data.
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Re: BRAW is actually Macro-Blocking RAW

PostMon Sep 16, 2019 11:07 pm

Andy Coulthurst wrote:Ambarella produce SOCs that perform h264/h265 compression - so macro blocking is an absolute possibility.


Yes, except they fuzz it out now. But I meant the playback on camera showed extra bad blockiness which were not there when played back normally. The problem now, is your computer systems have deblocking technology. So, not seeing blocks on s computer doesn't necessarily mean there was none there in the recording.

Is there a way to guarantee to turn off all display enhancements to the industry not from genuine modification of the software?
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Re: BRAW is actually Macro-Blocking RAW

PostMon Sep 16, 2019 11:27 pm

MishaEngel wrote:
John Griffin wrote:As soon as I realised BRAW was not 'RAW' I exposed it with more caution when using ETTR.


Or shoot Q0 (or 3:1)

I was. Read the thread as even CDNG had issues.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: BRAW is actually Macro-Blocking RAW

PostTue Sep 17, 2019 6:07 am

OK Robert. I found a easy way to find the threads, but after maybe 12 hours of effort, I can't find the threads on JPEG, macro blocking, the original banknote and the scene with the fine net and other textures which blur out etc. It's like they suddenly don't exist. A bit strange. Maybe they were linked images which don't come up or have been removed at source. However, I determined the wedding like one with macro blocking, is probably the braw demo with the Asian women.

Anyway where's my $12,000 for looking up this stuff rather than the people who really want to know pulling up some complex footage etc, and looking for it?
Often people deceive themselves so much they do not understand, even when the truth is explained to them.
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Vess Stoytchev

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Re: BRAW is actually Macro-Blocking RAW

PostTue Sep 17, 2019 7:41 am

Ulysses Paiva wrote:So far BRAW has been stellar to me. Maybe you guys can be more detailed giving samples and more info on your issues.
Up until now we are only getting claims supported by nothing.

+1

I am sure nobody will tell the difference when watching something shot on either BRAW, ProRes, cDNG and so on. Unless you stay 30min at 600% zoom on a still frame while knowing what the footage is shot on.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: BRAW is actually Macro-Blocking RAW

PostTue Sep 17, 2019 8:41 am

Did the test at normal fov, and did. The issue is sometimes it's going let you down. Uncompressed, me what Braw gets, you could do more with.

I'm wondering if one of the differences in Braw, apart from looking less focused (cdng applies some sharpening as standard though) is that braw gives a different contrast by more latitude use.
Often people deceive themselves so much they do not understand, even when the truth is explained to them.
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CougerJoe

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Re: BRAW is actually Macro-Blocking RAW

PostWed Sep 18, 2019 5:21 am

Would the following be considered correct or incorrect, Thankyou


BRAW isn't actually RAW at all, users have found it compresses into YUV and creates artifacts when doing things like green screen as a result
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