YRGB Color Managed Color Space Confusion?

Hey I use YRGB Color Managed Color Science for Footage shot on Red EPIC Camera.

I am grading on Ezio CG318-4K Monitor under DCI-P3 Settings.

What would be the ideal Color Management Settings for Input / Timeline / Output Colorspace?

I planned to keep Output Colorspace as P3-DCI, What Colorspace needs to be kept on Input & Timeline Colorspace?

Bal;

i've been testing this for a show i'm thinking of useing v12b2 on... i'm no expert here, but really no one is at this point... i do have experince with the Truelight colorspaces tho.

RED appears to be locked to linear on input, as expected, i have been testing with a RG4->RFL input LUT, and Arri as the working space, and output matches your display (you mentioned P3, but with the that mon i would be using 709 personaly)

You will need to watch the clip/crush on the footage, and adjust iso or exposure on a shot by shot basis to avoid the LUT damageing the footage tho... the advantage to this approach is that you can safely use 10bit caches

if you stay linear then anything but a 16bit cache will clip and crush.. so it's really about throughput, disk space and speed - when testing with linear footage, i was prefering DCI as the working space

Hello all,

I've been used to work in a REC709 workflow for years. But i expect some future projects being in P3 for my customers who work with RED cameras (with R3D clips) for theater as main/only release. I've just purchased this Eizo 4K monitor which displays 98% of DCI-P3 color space. From what some Eizo experts told me, the results are very close to what Dolby monitors can do. I know it's adviced to use a projector for P3 grading but i'll never be able to purchase that kind of material so i'd like to try anyway P3 grading on my new Eizo monitor.

Now, i have no idea to set up this workflow with DaVinci Resolve. From what i've understood, i have to configure "DaVinci YRGB color managed" and "Data levels" in "Master project settings". And then, i get also confused about input / timeline / output colorspace configuration. Should i leave "input" to "bypass" and then "timeline" and "output" to P3-DCI?

Thank you.

I think, beside the CM, you definitely need to profile/calibrate the EIZO first.
98% doesn't mean any sort of accuracy, it's just the size of the gamut.

I'd work in calibrated REC709 gamut anytime over uncalibrated DCI-P3.

Data or Video Levels must be the same on the monitor and Master Project Settings. That's important.

I'd also check the final grade in a theater with good calibrated projector once...

Now, i have no idea to set up this workflow with DaVinci Resolve. From what i've understood, i have to configure "DaVinci YRGB color managed" and "Data levels" in "Master project settings". And then, i get also confused about input / timeline / output colorspace configuration. Should i leave "input" to "bypass" and then "timeline" and "output" to P3-DCI?

I do it by keeping input to bypass, timeline to Rec 709 2.4 and output to Rec 709 2.4. Normally I calibrate my Eizo to BT1886. If DCI-P3 is needed, I change the output to DCI-P3 while rendering out. If you want to remain in DCI-P3 from the beginning, I think what you are doing is absolutely right. But you have to calibrate your Eizo to DCI-P3 first.

Thank you all for your feedback.

So if i understand well, for any RED project with R3D RAW files, i should do this:

* for Rec709 *
-> Video levels
-> Input color space to "Bypass"
-> Timeline color space to "Rec 709 2.4"
-> Output color space to "Rec 709 2.4"
+ Eizo mode to Rec 709 preset with BT1886

* for P3 *
-> Data levels
-> Input color space to "Bypass"
-> Timeline color space to "DCI-P3"
-> Output color space to "DCI-P3"
+ Eizo mode to "DCI-P3"

@ Erik : The Eizo has already a P3 calibrated preset. Do you think i should make another one?

Another newbie question about all this : If i want to deliver to a ProRes 4:4:4 from a P3 project, should i apply a LUT to make it in Rec 709 2.4? If yes, how to do this? I've never seen any ProRes with a P3 color space. Metadatas always tell it's Rec 709.

Data or Video levels depends on your monitor. You can set the EIZO to video (range extension on, super white off) or data levels (range ext. off, super white on).

The P3 presets might be okay. But how can you know without profiling/calibrating yourself?
If the monitor itself is your only P3 reference, you need to know if it's accurate enough for you.

The Rec709 preset of my EIZO CG247 isn't accurate enough for me...

Data or Video levels depends on your monitor. You can set the EIZO to video (range extension on, super white off) or data levels (range ext. off, super white on).

The P3 presets might be okay. But how can you know without profiling/calibrating yourself?
If the monitor itself is your only P3 reference, you need to know if it's accurate enough for you.

The Rec709 preset of my EIZO CG247 isn't accurate enough for me...

I think I'm getting lost now. How can i know if it's accurate or not?

Well, I'd work with extension on / super white off for Rec 709 and extension off / super white on for P3. About profiling, I plan to use Light Illusion TIFF tests pattern. And for calibration itself, i'd use the built-in sensor in the Eizo CG318.

Other than the cheaper model, the self-calibrating CG318 is very accurate. I tested it with a Klein K-10 probe.

Better than anything else below 10 K$ (or more).

How long will it be accurate?
You will only know if you profile your monitor with a probe and CMS software...

I always use range extension off and super white on when I set Resolve to data level.
It has nothing to do with Rec709 or DCI-P3...

Well, it has it's own probe and management. But how good the long term stability of the probe is would be unknown. OTOH, many folks use probes with organically dyes in their filters which are of limited stability too…

Yeah, but that's a rabbit hole that you can fall down forever. If you can't trust the monitor, and you can't trust the probe...

You'd need to invest probably as much into a reliable probe as into that monitor, since most of the cheap probes are pretty much crap (think Spyder). Unfortunately Quato went out of business…

I have the CG247 with probably the same built-in probe.
You can only use it with EIZOs ColorNavigator, which isn't able to perform accurate profiling at all. It also uses only the same 64 patches for profiling+validating, which makes no sense at all...

Not sure about it being the same.
As said, we measured excellent values with the CG 318 with a serious probe (and software). My partner during that test was one of the leading consultants on monitoring for film and TV in Europe and he was surprised himself.
But for sure long-term stability can only be assured by regular checks. For sure there are better solutions on the market, but it all depends on the class of productions you are working for and if they are willing to make such an investment possible for you. I'd still consider the CG318 far better than anything else in it's price range.

Thanks Uli.
Good to know.

I'm in direct contact with EIZO and try to work on their firmware/software for the monitor. I like to preset the monitor to a certain brightness and gamma and then import a LUT under those settings..
This doesn't work with video signals yet.

I've contacted Steve Shaw who recommands to buy the i1 Display Pro probe because "the in-built probe is not accurate enough for professional use" for the CG318. I don't know if he tested it himself... but what you say Uli is very encouraging. I'm not sure about buying another probe since i purchased the CG318 also for its own sensor.

By the way, I have another newbie questions about P3. If you can help me, it would be very nice.

- Have you used Lightspace LUT to make P3->Rec709 conversion in order to deliver a ProRes? Steve Shaw talked me about the LightSpace LTE software for this in DaVinci. It seems to be a great reference but does it exist any alternative with DaVinci integration? Would this workflow work : ACES IDT to P3 and ACES ODT to Rec709.

- Since ProRes 4:4:4:4 seems to be Rec709 only (not sure about that though! And i can't find more infos about it), how do you deliver your project after the P3 color grading? DPX 12 bit, TIFF 16 bit?

Thank you.

I've contacted Steve Shaw who recommands to buy the i1 Display Pro probe because "the in-built probe is not accurate enough for professional use" for the CG318. I don't know if he tested it himself... but what you say Uli is very encouraging. I'm not sure about buying another probe since i purchased the CG318 also for its own sensor.

By the way, I have another newbie questions about P3. If you can help me, it would be very nice.

- Have you used Lightspace LUT to make P3->Rec709 conversion in order to deliver a ProRes? Steve Shaw talked me about the LightSpace LTE software for this in DaVinci. It seems to be a great reference but does it exist any alternative with DaVinci integration? Would this workflow work : ACES IDT to P3 and ACES ODT to Rec709.

- Since ProRes 4:4:4:4 seems to be Rec709 only (not sure about that though! And i can't find more infos about it), how do you deliver your project after the P3 color grading? DPX 12 bit, TIFF 16 bit?

Thank you.

don't get fooled, a file does not have anything to do with what the data represent: a prores can contain Alexa log, P3, even linear light (although will be really a bad idea). you know what h you put in it.

best deliverable for DCP is either dpx (most used, 10 or 16 bits), tiff 16b, occasionally exr.

all of those can be either rec 709 or p3, as long as they are labeled, the company that will make the DCP knows how to handle it. (unless you make it yourself)

Okay it's simpler than what i imagined. I got confused because Mediainfo software gave me a Rec709 Colorspace into a ProRes metadatas when I exported from DaVinci with "P3-DCI" configured into "timeline color space" and "output colorspaces" inside the Color Management menu. I suppose it's a wrong interpretation of metadatas then.

Please don't confuse signal range and color space.

A ProRes can hold values in the video range or in the data range. But a YUV can not hold all color values a RGB has. From all ProRes versions only 4444 (including XQ) can either be YUV or RGB (plus alpha). The others are all YUV, since it means color subsampling.

Gunlock Groven ( a rewnowned consultant for Scandinavia) made blind tests with a professional audience comparing ProRes 4444 RGB against DPX. Nobody could spot the difference. But as Walter recommended, image series are more of a standard in DCP processing. And storage space is cheap these days…

If I set a P3 workflow from R3D files with this :

-> Data levels
-> Input color space to "Bypass"
-> Timeline color space to "DCI-P3"
-> Output color space to "DCI-P3"
+ Eizo mode to "DCI-P3"

What should I do to deliver a Rec709 ProRes 4:4:4? Do I just need to change "Output color space" to "Rec709"? And to set the deliver options to "video levels"?

By the way, would you recommand "Bypass" or "Linear" for R3D files? I've read both would be possible.

Thanks!

Hello all,

I've done the following tests since I'm getting confused:

* Test 1 *
-> DaVinci YRGB
-> R3D file media as input
--> Render to TIFF "A" 16 bit.

* Test 2 *
-> DaVinci YRGB color managed
-> R3D file media as input
-> Input color space to "Linear" or "Bypass"
-> Timeline color space to "DCI-P3"
-> Output color space to "DCI-P3"
--> Render to TIFF "B" 16 bit.

* Test 3 *
-> DaVinci YRGB color managed
-> TIFF "B" 16 bit as input
-> Input color space to "DCI-P3"
-> Timeline color space to "DCI-P3"
-> Output color space to "Rec 709 2.4"
--> Render to TIFF "C" 16 bit.

I didn't use the monitor for my tests to eliminate any confusion. So i opened TIFF "A", "B", "C" in Photoshop. They all give different results. Please correct me if I'm wrong but i should get the same result for "A" and "C" since i made DCI-P3->709 conversion from the TIFF "B" which is in P3 color space.

Thank you.

Hello all,

I've done the following tests since I'm getting confused:

* Test 1 *
-> DaVinci YRGB
-> R3D file media as input
--> Render to TIFF "A" 16 bit.


* Test 2 *
-> DaVinci YRGB color managed
-> R3D file media as input
-> Input color space to "Linear" or "Bypass"
-> Timeline color space to "DCI-P3"
-> Output color space to "DCI-P3"
--> Render to TIFF "B" 16 bit.

* Test 3 *
-> DaVinci YRGB color managed
-> TIFF "B" 16 bit as input
-> Input color space to "DCI-P3"
-> Timeline color space to "DCI-P3"
-> Output color space to "Rec 709 2.4"
--> Render to TIFF "C" 16 bit.

I didn't use the monitor for my tests to eliminate any confusion. So i opened TIFF "A", "B", "C" in Photoshop. They all give different results. Please correct me if I'm wrong but i should get the same result for "A" and "C" since i made DCI-P3->709 conversion from the TIFF "B" which is in P3 color space.

Thank you.

what were the debayer settings on the raw file for test 1? linear? i would not expect to see A and C match otherwise, as b uses linear to debayer- and likely not match anyway - unless the shot in question was very low contrast as YRGB will clip/crush most R3D's set to linear debayer without correction of some sort

Yes it was "linear". I did the same tests with "bypass" : exact same results on all TIFF's.

My goal is actually to be sure that the test 2 is the right workflow to work in P3 colour space with R3d sources. And that test 3 would give a "709 version" which is not denatured.

EDIT : By the way, when I make a screenshot in TIFF 16 bit from Red-X Pro Player, with the same R3D file, i get the exact same results as my test 1. And from After Effects also.

not quite understanding what you are trying to do...to get a P3 output from an ACES or RCM timeline, you set the output transform to P3, and switch your monitor to P3....

i did open up a Dragon shot, used linear input in YRGb, RCM, and ACEScc.. and i saw about what i expected to see, an extremy contrasty image in YRGB, a more contained image in RCM, and an inage that is a good starting point strightway fromACEScc... but none of them match each other, or are even close, and i would not have expected them to;
YRGB;

RCM;

ACEScc;


i'm not understanding what all this round tripping is about, and why you would work with linear r3d's in YRGB either.... if you want a P3 output, would you not set your monitor to P3 and match the ODT/output transform?

why chose YRGB in the first place?

If the whole point is to deliver a P3 file for theatrical, I'm wary that the monitor is going to be accurate enough to deliver real P3 color in the first place. I'm also skeptical that you can color correct on a small LCD display and have it come back predictably on a large (20' or bigger) projection display, partly because of the size and partly because the projector delivers a reflected image rather than a direct image.

My personal advice is if you can't color-correct on a DCI-compliant projector, just color-correct entirely in Rec709 and use a LUT to convert it for DCP delivery later on. All the major packages I've seen have settings that will work fine for display gamma and color space. I would definitely advise watching the entire project on a projector prior to release, so at least you know if you have any unexpected issues.

Sorry for the confusion. My goal is to have the ability to use P3 mode with my monitor (Eizo CG318-4K) for theatrical releases. It gives good results with its P3 preset according some calibration tests with Lightspace:

http://www.liftgammagain.com/forum/index.php?threads/new-eizo-cg-318-4k.3919/page-2#post-58178

Of course I know it makes a difference with a projector. Anyways I'll grade in 709 most of the time but I want to be ready to use P3 if my customers ask me to (some of them can't afford a colour grading facility with a projector and would refuse a 709 workflow).

So, in this case, you'd choose the ACEScc mode with No Input Transform (for R3D sources) / P3 output output transform?

My test was about to know which workflow to use to deliver a ProRes 4:4:4 in 709 from a TIFF sequence in P3. And how to be sure the results can be close enough from the P3 original media. So I suppose the workflow would be still in ACEScc with P3 Input Transform / 709 Output Tranform.

a few thoughts, i do a fair amount of indie features that go to cinema....

i do work in ACEScc normaly;
- set my ODT to 709, mon to 709, work on a base / technical pass
- set my ODT to P3, set my mon to P3, and see if there's anything to be gained by working in P3, and likely there is not... exceptions being bollywood and horror... most shows do not need more than 709 can provide, and in P3 you will be fighting things that are non-issues in 709, like red car taillights illuminating a stop sign in the far BG, and now the stop sign has become the most visable part of the image, not the actors.... and you need to mask it... mutiply by 1000 shots....
- set my ODT back to 709 and grade untill someone/everyone's happy
- move the project to to a gradeing theatre and do a one day trim pass, if it's going to be delivered as a P3 master then set the ODT to P3 and tweak - likely the shadows will need some extra love
- move the project back to my suite
- drop in titles and lock up mix to safety check
- with a P3 ODT if wanted, export a file seq for DCDM as per the facility's prefrences
- with a 709 ODT export a ProRez444 @ HD for broadcast deliverables
- put the cheque in the bank

Thank you very much for your help. I'll follow your method!

EDIT: One more question please: ACEScc Rec709 is gamma 2.2 or 2.4?