In/out mark not hitting playhead

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joshua newman

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In/out mark not hitting playhead

PostWed Feb 14, 2018 8:15 pm

When I set my in/out marks on timeline in either the edit page or deliver page the out mark always ends up :01 past the playhead or where I set the out mark to be and assume/want it to be set at. Anyone know why that is? Is this normal or do I have something messed up? I'm having to go back and manually move the out mark back to where the playhead is and where I want it to be set at. I haven't changed any settings in regards to the way the program operates as it comes installed. The only settings I have changed is the timeline resolution and framerate, which is 23.976. I have tried changing the default handle length thinking that might do it but no luck, It's set at the default 24. Any ideas?
Last edited by joshua newman on Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Reynaud Venter

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Re: In/out mark not hitting playhead

PostWed Feb 14, 2018 8:17 pm

Have experienced the same issue here since the early betas of version 14, an issue isolated to the Edit and Deliver pages.

Workaround unfortunately is to manually move the Out Point back a single frame.

Fairlight's setting of In/Out Points is fully functional.
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joshua newman

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Re: In/out mark not hitting playhead

PostWed Feb 14, 2018 8:32 pm

Reynaud Venter wrote:Have experienced the same issue here since the early betas of version 14, an issue isolated to the Edit and Deliver pages.

Workaround unfortunately is to manually move the Out Point back a single frame.

Fairlight's setting of In/Out Points is fully functional.


Tha's what I've been doing, manually moving it back, but it is really tedious and doesn't make for quick editing. You would think that with as many people using in/out to mark clips they would want to make it right so it is acurate and actually goes to where you intend for it to go.
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Reynaud Venter

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Re: In/out mark not hitting playhead

PostWed Feb 14, 2018 8:47 pm

joshua newman wrote:You would think that with as many people using in/out to mark clips they would want to make it right so it is acurate and actually goes to where you intend for it to go.
I'm actually surprised no one else has mentioned this issue until now.
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John Paines

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Re: In/out mark not hitting playhead

PostWed Feb 14, 2018 9:18 pm

Are you folks sure? On the Edit page, the out point *appears* to be one frame beyond where you hit the out mark, and if you hit shift+o, ("go to out point") you'll be one frame to the left of the displayed out point, but the actual choice is respected. Your last frame will be the frame you marked as "out".

Looks to me like a display convention, where the last frame is "inclusive".
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Reynaud Venter

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Re: In/out mark not hitting playhead

PostWed Feb 14, 2018 9:37 pm

John Paines wrote:Are you folks sure?
John, this type of behaviour is not present on the Fairlight page. The In Point on both the Edit and Deliver pages does not exhibit this behaviour either. The issue is isolated to the Out Point.

The expected behaviour is that, like the Fairlight page and the In Point on the Edit page, the Out Point is placed at the PlayHead and not a frame to the right. This affects editing of both audio and video, as well as associated deliverables.

B98FFC67-0C36-4CF3-9992-9864D37C5CED.jpeg
Edit
B98FFC67-0C36-4CF3-9992-9864D37C5CED.jpeg (20.39 KiB) Viewed 774 times

757F8ADA-B639-48EB-BA9A-A244C8E6F8E9.jpeg
Deliver
757F8ADA-B639-48EB-BA9A-A244C8E6F8E9.jpeg (82.64 KiB) Viewed 774 times

Are you saying this behaviour is expected? Is this the implementation in version 12.5?
.
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joshua newman

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Re: In/out mark not hitting playhead

PostWed Feb 14, 2018 9:55 pm

John Paines wrote:Are you folks sure? On the Edit page, the out point *appears* to be one frame beyond where you hit the out mark, and if you hit shift+o, ("go to out point") you'll be one frame to the left of the displayed out point, but the actual choice is respected. Your last frame will be the frame you marked as "out".

Looks to me like a display convention, where the last frame is "inclusive".

Yes I'm sure. It not only appears one frame further but when it renders it also renders one frame further. I'm creating a set of 6 second clips and when I set the out point to end of clip and render there is carryover from the clip after, since it has the "out" point hanging on that edge. The only time I have gotten it to line up correctly is when it's the last clip on timeline. I have even tried spacing the clips so they aren't touching but you still get the overhang and a black frame at the end.
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John Paines

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Re: In/out mark not hitting playhead

PostWed Feb 14, 2018 10:20 pm

I'm not seeing it. My last frame, the one on which the out point is hit, is the last frame which gets rendered. I did it on cut points, to be sure. No overhang.
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PeterMoretti

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Re: In/out mark not hitting playhead

PostThu Feb 15, 2018 2:39 am

What is definitely apparent is that the behavior of how the out point is placed is different on the Edit and the Fairlight pages.

The Edit page is correct, in that it behaves like all other NLE's. It places the out point at the end of the frame, not the beginning. You can clearly see this by choosing to show a one frame post playhead shadow.

On the Fairlight page, however, the out point is place at the *beginning* of the frame.
Last edited by PeterMoretti on Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:03 am, edited 2 times in total.
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joshua newman

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Re: In/out mark not hitting playhead

PostThu Feb 15, 2018 4:11 am

This is what I'm dealing with on the edit and deliver tabs. Even if I have a gap between clips it does this. The only time it does not is if it's the last clip in timeline. The only way I've found to correct it is to manually pull the out mark back to clip end.
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John Paines

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Re: In/out mark not hitting playhead

PostThu Feb 15, 2018 4:37 am

Yes, that's how it displays, the playhead being positioned before, rather than on, the out point. But the tail frame in your edit/delivery is the one which was displayed when you marked "out" -- "out" being inclusive of the frame you just marked. So I'm not sure why you're having to move things around.
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Reynaud Venter

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Re: In/out mark not hitting playhead

PostThu Feb 15, 2018 5:48 am

PeterMoretti wrote:On the Fairlight page, however, the out point is place at the *beginning* of the frame.
This is the expected behaviour in all 4 point editing audio workstations.

Editing visuals and audio on the Edit page, with the additional frame included to the right of the Out Point, results in the audio edit occurring a frame late on the Fairlight page.
Consequently, even with a short aria, musical timing issues are introduced due to this behaviour.

Deliverables also include an extra frame, resulting in immediate rejection from QC, unless one pays attention to this implementation.
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Tero Ahlfors

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Re: In/out mark not hitting playhead

PostThu Feb 15, 2018 6:53 am

There are two types of out points

Inclusive:

This out point is what is being used in pretty much every NLE. With an inclusive out you mark your out point to the frame you want to include in the selection. So if you go to the next edit point and set an out you're getting a single frame of the next clip. The olde FCP7 manual has a pretty good topic on this: https://documentation.apple.com/en/fina ... tasks=true

Exclusive:

This out point is marked at the cut. This kind of out point is pretty rare but it is available as a setting in some programs like Autodesk Smoke/Flame, Quantel iQ, DVS Clipster and such.
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Reynaud Venter

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Re: In/out mark not hitting playhead

PostThu Feb 15, 2018 7:04 am

Tero Ahlfors wrote:Exclusive:

This out point is marked at the cut. This kind of out point is pretty rare but it is available as a setting in some programs like Autodesk Smoke/Flame, Quantel iQ, DVS Clipster and such.
Thank you Tero for outlining this so clearly and concisely.

Exclusive is the behaviour I have been expecting, which matches the Fairlight page implementation.

New addition to the already 60 page long feature request list.
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joshua newman

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Re: In/out mark not hitting playhead

PostThu Feb 15, 2018 7:09 am

So is there a fix to this, I don't want a extra frame after my out point is set, I want the out point, the out point. If the clip is next to another clip it takes a frame from the clip after into my render, which I don't want. What is the fix?
There is no audio with these clips either
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Tero Ahlfors

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Re: In/out mark not hitting playhead

PostThu Feb 15, 2018 7:13 am

joshua newman wrote:What is the fix?


Learning how to use inclusive out points like everyone else. If this is a huge deal for you then make a feature request for an exclusive out point setting.
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Peter Chamberlain

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Re: In/out mark not hitting playhead

PostThu Feb 15, 2018 9:15 am

A quick check today suggests it’s working as designed.
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Reynaud Venter

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Re: In/out mark not hitting playhead

PostThu Feb 15, 2018 10:19 am

Peter Chamberlain wrote:A quick check today suggests it’s working as designed.
Peter, thank you for the confirmation.

It's the different implementations between the Edit and Fairlight pages that caused confusion here.

Out Points.png
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Tero Ahlfors

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Re: In/out mark not hitting playhead

PostThu Feb 15, 2018 10:41 am

I'd guess it's an audio vs NLE thing and they have different cases on how one uses out points. I haven't used the previous Fairlight products so I can't say if this was a thing on those.
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John Paines

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Re: In/out mark not hitting playhead

PostThu Feb 15, 2018 12:30 pm

Reynaud Venter wrote:Exclusive is the behaviour I have been expecting, which matches the Fairlight page implementation.


The playhead positions itself on the out point on the Fairlight page, unlike Edit/Deliver pages. But where is the actual cut occurring? Did you confirm it's an exclusive edit?

I think all we're dealing with here is the behavior of the playhead, which is different on the Fairlight page, because it's not based in frame increments.
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Reynaud Venter

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Re: In/out mark not hitting playhead

PostThu Feb 15, 2018 1:06 pm

John Paines wrote:But where is the actual cut occurring?
The cut on the Fairlight page occurs at the precise location of the Out Point, which is set at the precise location of the PlayHead.

This results in an "Exclusive" cut in Range Selection Mode, as the position of the PlayHead isn't assigned a function once the Out Point has been placed.

I think all we're dealing with here is the behavior of the playhead, which is different on the Fairlight page, because it's not based in frame increments.
The behaviour of the PlayHead being based around frame increments is not the issue here, as that implementation obviously shouldn't change.

The addition of an "Exclusive" Out Point preference would solve the issue, as the implementation on the Edit page could then match that of the Fairlight page.

Designate "Inclusive" as the default behaviour on the Edit page, since that is the expected behaviour by visual editors (so nothing need to change here for most users).

Provide an "Exclusive" option on the Edit page for audio editors (or for those users that prefer that behaviour).
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Re: In/out mark not hitting playhead

PostThu Feb 15, 2018 1:43 pm

As best I understand it, the Fairlight GUI is not based in frame increments. And because there's no frame with a beginning and end to reference when making cuts, the cut has to occur where the out point is placed. There's no place else to put it, since we're no longer dealing with a frame unit with a start and end point.

I don't see anything inconsistent here. Edit and Deliver follow NLE convention, in placing cut points inclusively. Fairlight places them in time. Inclusive/exclusive don't mean anything on the Fairlight page.

Anyway, that's my imperfect understanding of the matter, not having done much with Fairlight. The feature request for exclusive cuts on the Edit page is of course yours to make, but I don't see that current Edit page design is in conflict with Fairlight behavior.
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Re: In/out mark not hitting playhead

PostThu Feb 15, 2018 2:03 pm

John Paines wrote:The feature request for exclusive cuts on the Edit page is of course yours to make, but I don't see that current Edit page design is in conflict with Fairlight behavior.
Having subsequently researched this a little more, it appears visual editors of certain alternative NLE software are requesting this same functionality. So apparently the request isn't all that unusual even among visual editors.

Perhaps a key modifier while using the "Mark Out" shortcut would be an alternative to a Global Preference.

The workaround appears to remain, place the PlayHead at the required location, then use the "Step One Frame Reverse" command before using the "Mark Audio Out" shortcut.
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Re: In/out mark not hitting playhead

PostThu Feb 15, 2018 3:30 pm

I don't really understand without checking myself, and I will because I remember something connected to that (though I'm not troubled at this point).
However, I can already say I wouln't like exclusive points to be the default behavior...
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Re: In/out mark not hitting playhead

PostThu Feb 15, 2018 9:05 pm

joshua newman wrote:So is there a fix to this, I don't want a extra frame after my out point is set, I want the out point, the out point. If the clip is next to another clip it takes a frame from the clip after into my render, which I don't want. What is the fix?
There is no audio with these clips either

Joshua, with all due respect, and really mean that, I would **carefully** read all that's been written in this thread. It clearly explains why you aren't including the next frame when you place an out point on the Edit Page. There is no workaround needed on the Edit Page.
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joshua newman

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Re: In/out mark not hitting playhead

PostFri Feb 16, 2018 5:14 am

PeterMoretti wrote:
joshua newman wrote:So is there a fix to this, I don't want a extra frame after my out point is set, I want the out point, the out point. If the clip is next to another clip it takes a frame from the clip after into my render, which I don't want. What is the fix?
There is no audio with these clips either

Joshua, with all due respect, and really mean that, I would **carefully** read all that's been written in this thread. It clearly explains why you aren't including the next frame when you place an out point on the Edit Page. There is no workaround needed on the Edit Page.


I guess I'm confused or maybe didn't clearly explain my issue, or maybe I did and I'm still not understanding. I'm obviously not as knowledgeable with Resolve as others and only use it to maybe a percent of it's abilities. Believe me, I'd like to know more, and I'm trying everyday.
What I was having problems with is I would put the playhead at the end of the clip that I wanted to render in the deliver page, and set a out point. When I rendered the firdt time I noticed it had a frame from the following clip in it. I went back and zoomed in and saw that the out point was actually one frame past where the playhead was, the place where I "assumed" my out mark was placed. For me it was easier to simple tab with the arrow key to the end of clip, push "O" for the outpoint. If this is the way its supposed to operate, so be it. I was just curious if that is the norm for resolve and if so is there a different method I should be using. I appreciate all the insight. There is a ton of knowledge in this post delving much further down the rabbit hole than I was intending. I hadn't even tried it in Fairlight like some of the post are doing. Thanks so much for all the help, it really is appreciated.
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joshua newman

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Re: In/out mark not hitting playhead

PostFri Feb 16, 2018 5:18 am

Tero Ahlfors wrote:
joshua newman wrote:What is the fix?


Learning how to use inclusive out points like everyone else. If this is a huge deal for you then make a feature request for an exclusive out point setting.


Thanks for the advice. What I was meaning by "fix" is how do I "fix my issue", as in how do I set out points and have them be set where I want them, not what is the fix like there is an issue with the program.
I totally get there is a wrong and right way to do things, just trying the right way. I didn't even know there was such a thing as inclusive and exclusive out points.
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joshua newman

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Re: In/out mark not hitting playhead

PostFri Feb 16, 2018 5:23 am

Tero Ahlfors wrote:There are two types of out points

Inclusive:

This out point is what is being used in pretty much every NLE. With an inclusive out you mark your out point to the frame you want to include in the selection. So if you go to the next edit point and set an out you're getting a single frame of the next clip. The olde FCP7 manual has a pretty good topic on this: https://documentation.apple.com/en/fina ... tasks=true

Exclusive:

This out point is marked at the cut. This kind of out point is pretty rare but it is available as a setting in some programs like Autodesk Smoke/Flame, Quantel iQ, DVS Clipster and such.


Question, I'm curious why it's like this. Maybe it's just me and my cut and dry way of thinking, but to me it seems where you set the out point should be the out point, if I wanted one frame extra I would set it one frame extra. Why do you suppose it's set up this way? I'm sure there is a good reason, I'm sure people that do this everyday for a living find it useful, maybe not. Just trying to understand the system in order to use it more effectively. Thanks for the explanation.
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Re: In/out mark not hitting playhead

PostFri Feb 16, 2018 8:18 am

Joshua, thanks for your gracious reply. Where I think you may be getting hung up is that the current frame has a length to it. Each frame has a beginning and an end, and they do not overlap.

A great way to illustrate this is to go to :

DaVinci Resolve... Preferences... User... Editing... General Settings...

set Pre-playhead shadow length to 0 frames
and set Post-playhead shadow length to 1 frames

and in the View menu choose Show Playhead Shadow.

Zoom into the timeline (Ctrl +) until you see the shadow after the playhead. That shadow represents the entire frame that you are parked on. If press I, you will an in point at the beginning of that frame. And if you press O, you will place an out point at the end of that frame. If you were to press the Left Arrown and then press O, you would placing an out point at the end of the previous frame, which would exclude the frame you were just on.

And I can confirm that placing an out point on the Deliver Page does not inlcude the next frame, it places it at the end of the current frame.

I hope that helps.
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Tero Ahlfors

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Re: In/out mark not hitting playhead

PostFri Feb 16, 2018 9:00 am

The edit and deliver page both have inclusive outs.
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joshua newman

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Re: In/out mark not hitting playhead

PostFri Feb 16, 2018 6:39 pm

PeterMoretti wrote:Joshua, thanks for your gracious reply. Where I think you may be getting hung up is that the current frame has a length to it. Each frame has a beginning and an end, and they do not overlap.

A great way to illustrate this is to go to :

DaVinci Resolve... Preferences... User... Editing... General Settings...

set Pre-playhead shadow length to 0 frames
and set Post-playhead shadow length to 1 frames

and in the View menu choose Show Playhead Shadow.

Zoom into the timeline (Ctrl +) until you see the shadow after the playhead. That shadow represents the entire frame that you are parked on. If press I, you will an in point at the beginning of that frame. And if you press O, you will place an out point at the end of that frame. If you were to press the Left Arrown and then press O, you would placing an out point at the end of the previous frame, which would exclude the frame you were just on.

And I can confirm that placing an out point on the Deliver Page does not inlcude the next frame, it places it at the end of the current frame.

I hope that helps.


Thanks for the tips/ideas. I will jump on as soon as I'm able and try to figure it out and get a better understanding of it. Thanks again for taking the time to help explain it, much appreciated.
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