Grading Prores Raw

Get answers to your questions about color grading, editing and finishing with DaVinci Resolve.
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Benjamin de Menil

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Grading Prores Raw

PostSun Feb 09, 2020 1:54 am

I recently took some DJI Zenmuse 7 Drone footage shot in Prores RAW. I notice first that the RAW panel isn't active... I guess it's not really RAW? The next issue I'm having is decoding the color space. Can anyone clue me in to the proper setup for handling this footage in Resolve?

Thanks
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Uli Plank

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Re: Grading Prores Raw

PostSun Feb 09, 2020 9:33 am

Resolve is not compatible with ProRes RAW. You'll need to use another NLE or to transcode.
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Jim Simon

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Re: Grading Prores Raw

PostSun Feb 09, 2020 3:42 pm

Looking up the specs of the Zenmuse 7, ProRes RAW isn't listed as an option. cDNG, ProRes (normal) and H.264/5 are all that I found listed.

Since Resolve doesn't support ProRes RAW, and you were able to import the media, the evidence suggests you've got normal ProRes there.
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roger.magnusson

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Re: Grading Prores Raw

PostSun Feb 09, 2020 6:10 pm

Side note; While it's true that DaVinci Resolve 16 doesn't support ProRes Raw, it can import the media if it has audio. Video won't be shown of course.
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Uli Plank

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Re: Grading Prores Raw

PostMon Feb 10, 2020 12:49 am

Yes, it's simple ProRes then and the RAW tab will be inactive.
I't shouldn't be difficult to grade the footage to your liking just as it is if exposed correctly.
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Benjamin de Menil

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Re: Grading Prores Raw

PostTue Feb 11, 2020 1:26 pm

The codec says Apple Prores 4444

It seems to be shot in an unusual color space. Having a hard time getting it to look right
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Grading Prores Raw

PostTue Feb 11, 2020 1:54 pm

It's probably D-LOG (DJI log version). Look for their official LUT- this will make it easier.
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Benjamin de Menil

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Re: Grading Prores Raw

PostWed Feb 12, 2020 2:37 pm

DJI's LUT was OK. Blackmagic Pocket 4K seemed to work just as well or better. The footage looks pretty bad at times. It reads as Prores 4444, but the bit rate is only 682mbs. According to the Prores wiki page, 24 FPS UHD Prores 4444 should be around 1,600 mbs.

I wonder if the operator set the camera to record at 8bit or something. image falls apart when I try to create contrast.
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Grading Prores Raw

PostWed Feb 12, 2020 2:45 pm

It may be very badly exposed and then with LOG it will happen quickly.
You can try to normalise it before you apply LUT. Find where gray should be in scopes and try to adjust footage before it hits LUT (official LUTs are designed for perfectly expose/shot footage).
Don't expect miracles from drone footage :D
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Benjamin de Menil

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Re: Grading Prores Raw

PostWed Feb 12, 2020 8:26 pm

On the most problematic footage, the scopes show the exposure straight down the middle. Far from peaking shadows or highlights. But there's very little contrast. As soon a I try to create contrast the footage breaks - the data isn't there.

We shot at max aperture for the lens: 16 - because the drone operator had no NDs. I'm not sure if the high aperture could play a role in reducing contrast.

Also I suspect the image was not recorded at the 12bit or 14bit that the Zenmuse x7 is capable of. The operator had issues with his licenses. But like I said, Prores 4444 UHD 10bit should be 1600mbs, and this is 682mbs - so I suspect it's 8bit and/or a non-standard compression was applied.
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Benjamin de Menil

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Re: Grading Prores Raw

PostWed Feb 12, 2020 8:32 pm

PS - the sun was behind us, so doubtful that lens flare was at play. Maybe some combo of diffraction and interference from the high aperture?
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MishaEngel

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Re: Grading Prores Raw

PostWed Feb 12, 2020 8:57 pm

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Carsten Sellberg

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Re: Grading Prores Raw

PostWed Feb 12, 2020 10:04 pm

MishaEngel wrote: A liitle overview of some RAW formats in German


Hi.

Not all Forum Members read German. Here is a Google Translate of above link:

https://translate.google.com/translate? ... ml%23Assim

Regards Carsten.
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Ellory Yu

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Re: Grading Prores Raw

PostWed Feb 12, 2020 10:25 pm

Hi Benjamin. That's not Prores RAW. I tested importing a Prores RAW in Resolve. It's just a black video screen with audio - just like a poster mentioned about. This is most likely Prores or DJI Log. But anyway, here's a suggestion for you to try. If you have Resolve Studio, add a node and do a color transform. Leave your input color space and gamma to "Timeline" and use an output color space like "rec.709" and gamma like "Gamma 2.2". Then if that works, you can grade it from there on or use a DJI lut. It's worth a try. If you think that the issue is in the camera settings or how it was shot, then not sure how we can help you there because most of those settings are baked it. Good luck!
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Benjamin de Menil

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Re: Grading Prores Raw

PostWed Feb 12, 2020 10:55 pm

Hi Ellory,

Wouldn't the DJI Zenmuse x7 to Rec709 LUT do what what you are suggesting?

Ben
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Ellory Yu

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Re: Grading Prores Raw

PostThu Feb 13, 2020 6:13 am

Benjamin de Menil wrote:Hi Ellory,

Wouldn't the DJI Zenmuse x7 to Rec709 LUT do what what you are suggesting?

Ben


LUTs usually works with well expose footage and it might. What I was suggesting is to normalize the footage to a color space and gamma so you have a good base, then make the adjustment or apply a LUT. They're actually different things. I'm not also saying that will fix your issue. You can give what you're asking a try as well. In the past, I've recovered bad WB and exposure through the process I suggested.
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Grading Prores Raw

PostThu Feb 13, 2020 11:21 am

MishaEngel wrote:A liitle overview of some RAW formats https://www.slashcam.de/artikel/Ratgeber/RAW-Format-Vergleich---Ein-tabellarischer-Funktions-Ueberblick--Assimilate-Scratch--RAW-Formate-und-deren-Funkt.html#Assim in German

ProResRAW has RAW in it's name... and that's about it.


This is far from truth, which is actually opposite. ProRes RAW is more RAW than BRAW as it stores pure RAW data (BRAW is also fine except this enforced de-noising). With ProResRAW you have access to pure RAW data and can bypass eg. Apple's debayer and add your own one plus any other RAW control you wish. This is open design.
ISO and other controls are just not implemented in FCPX. At the end they are not really needed as you can get same result with later controls. With todays 32bit float processing those RAW controls are not mandatory.
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MishaEngel

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Re: Grading Prores Raw

PostThu Feb 13, 2020 12:19 pm

What is RAW about storing 4k ProResRAW captured from a full 6k Nikon sensor?

With BRAW we get atleast somekind of info on how it works (part. de-bayered) from BlackMagic.

In the ProResRAW whitepaper, it's only blabla... how great it is, no technical details or objective image quality comparisons what so ever, it's the marketing BS at full speed (isn't that what Apple is all about!)
ProResRAW is a lot, but it's not RAW as in flexible, exporting all the pixels, etc... and what is ProResRAW HQ?

All RAW formats have some kind of advantage over the others, the advantage of ProResRAW(HQ) over the others, is a big marketing machine behind it.

And the data from Slashcam.de is correct.
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Grading Prores Raw

PostThu Feb 13, 2020 1:19 pm

MishaEngel wrote:What is RAW about storing 4k ProResRAW captured from a full 6k Nikon sensor?


Nothing to do with ProResRAW itself, but camera manufacture choice:

https://www.eoshd.com/nikon/nikon-z6-pr ... or-output/
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Grading Prores Raw

PostThu Feb 13, 2020 1:22 pm

MishaEngel wrote:
And the data from Slashcam.de is correct.


It's correct, but what does it mean is a different story. Your conclusion is so blind.
There was actually post for Scratch team tat they are planning to include RAW controls for ProResRAW (for those who like using them). Is it then going to make it proper RAW format?
Last edited by Andrew Kolakowski on Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:37 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Grading Prores Raw

PostThu Feb 13, 2020 2:05 pm

MishaEngel wrote:In the ProResRAW whitepaper, it's only blabla... how great it is, no technical details or objective image quality comparisons what so ever, it's the marketing BS at full speed (isn't that what Apple is all about!)
ProResRAW is a lot, but it's not RAW as in flexible, exporting all the pixels, etc... and what is ProResRAW HQ?

What marketing crap? Apple's white paper is very plain and simple, but has no special marketing crap. It's about the same as BM info about BRAW, which actually causes more debates ( specially partially debayered part without any details etc.).

ProRes RAW is just plain RAW compressed with ProRes 'scheme'. It's real RAW data which you can do whatever you want, g. bypass Apple's own debayering provided in SDK. Not sure what else you want to know as there is nothing hidden or special there. It's the same as Cineform RAW- open (well SDK is not public).
BRAW (or RED) is actually "black box" which provides final debayered end data which you just pass to your app. You have no way to access RAW data (maybe there is a way in BRAW, not in RED) and have to accept de-nosing which is enforced on you by BM. Is this RAW?
I'm based on facts- details from developers who have access to ProRes RAW SDK (BRAW is publicly accessible so no problem here although still no one confirmed if you can access RAW data or not). It's not a crap repeated through internet based on nothing.
If anything then format which won't let you access RAW data could be called "RAW on paper only".

Also based on an assumption it was originally Atomos' idea to create ProResRAW not Apple's. Atoms (from obvious reasons) wanted to give universal RAW format which different camera manufactures could use. It's good idea, they just didn't put enough thinking and work into it (eg. not having SDK ready or using some exclusivity time).

Proper compressed RAW format should be plain simple- get RAW sensor data, compress it and store together with needed camera metadata. On decoding side SDK should let you access RAW pixels, so they just get decoded from compressed form, nothing more. Then you can have a built in debayering, de-nosing etc., but as an optional processing. This is basically what ProResRAW is (and maybe BRAW could be).
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MishaEngel

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Re: Grading Prores Raw

PostThu Feb 13, 2020 11:25 pm

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:
MishaEngel wrote:
And the data from Slashcam.de is correct.


It's correct, but what does it mean is a different story. Your conclusion is so blind.
There was actually post for Scratch team tat they are planning to include RAW controls for ProResRAW (for those who like using them). Is it then going to make it proper RAW format?


My conclusion is far from blind.

ProResRAW is a very immature codec with a very immature SDK(this is what NLE's, etc.. need to implement it in their software) all while being backed with the biggest markting budget in codec history.

I'm am planning to become a trillionaire..
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Grading Prores Raw

PostThu Feb 13, 2020 11:45 pm

Was it?
I never seen any special marketing for it, except some Atoms videos etc.
Show me ProResRAW on Apple page. Show me big Apple's announcements about ProResRAW.
I don't think Apple cares about it much at all. They actually done not much in promoting it. It's all Atomos driven.
So now it's not mature format. Of course it's not.
How many apps have support for BRAW? Can you remind me?
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MishaEngel

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Re: Grading Prores Raw

PostFri Feb 14, 2020 2:50 am

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:Was it?
I never seen any special marketing for it, except some Atoms videos etc.
Show me ProResRAW on Apple page. Show me big Apple's announcements about ProResRAW.
I don't think Apple cares about it much at all. They actually done not much in promoting it. It's all Atomos driven.
So now it's not mature format. Of course it's not.
How many apps have support for BRAW? Can you remind me?


They even started a case against RED and had to pull back.
Apple promotes it thru camera/recorder companies who don't have the resources or have been less succesful making their own RAW-formats (All recorders/camera's that announced to use ProResRAW).

BRAW is a part of the complete BM eco-system, Apple only has software and some phones.

Haven't checked them all but atleast Davinci Resolve, Adobe PP, AVID media composer and Edius
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Uli Plank

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Re: Grading Prores Raw

PostFri Feb 14, 2020 4:11 am

Where did you read they pulled back? I only know about the case and such things take time.
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roger.magnusson

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Re: Grading Prores Raw

PostFri Feb 14, 2020 5:54 am

The court rejected Apples claim in november: https://9to5mac.com/2019/11/11/raw-video/
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Re: Grading Prores Raw

PostFri Feb 14, 2020 6:30 am

This discussion about RAW is all irrelevant if the actual cinematography is crappy in the first place. Why debate on something you don't have any control and focus more on making cinematic quality pictures first through lighting, composition, and superb acting. The camera and codec becomes secondary.
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Re: Grading Prores Raw

PostFri Feb 14, 2020 7:50 am

Thanks, Roger. So, we can be happy that BRAW withstands.
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Grading Prores Raw

PostFri Feb 14, 2020 10:05 am

MishaEngel wrote:
Andrew Kolakowski wrote:Was it?
I never seen any special marketing for it, except some Atoms videos etc.
Show me ProResRAW on Apple page. Show me big Apple's announcements about ProResRAW.
I don't think Apple cares about it much at all. They actually done not much in promoting it. It's all Atomos driven.
So now it's not mature format. Of course it's not.
How many apps have support for BRAW? Can you remind me?


They even started a case against RED and had to pull back.
Apple promotes it thru camera/recorder companies who don't have the resources or have been less succesful making their own RAW-formats (All recorders/camera's that announced to use ProResRAW).


Through Atomos which was behind original idea anyway.
Because they are paying licensing fees to RED and when felt that can avoid that they sue them. Shame they did not win.
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Re: Grading Prores Raw

PostFri Feb 14, 2020 2:15 pm

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:Is it then going to make it proper RAW format?


I do think it needs those controls if you want to call it RAW.
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Grading Prores Raw

PostFri Feb 14, 2020 2:46 pm

For those who use to it and actually use them it may.
How many people do actually change things through RAW page settings?
In most cases further controls allow to get same end results.
Other than this- ProResRAW gives you access to RAW pixels (which is the key point for RAW formats), so you can have any RAW setting you wish (it's just not implemented in FCPX or maybe not in SDK either).
Last edited by Andrew Kolakowski on Sat Feb 15, 2020 12:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Grading Prores Raw

PostFri Feb 14, 2020 2:50 pm

I've no data on how many editors/colorists use the RAW controls.

I can only say that I do my basic corrections there. If a company wants me to use their RAW codec, I want those controls.

BRAW is frustrating in ACES for the same reason.
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Grading Prores Raw

PostSat Feb 15, 2020 12:12 am

With todays 32bit float engine you should be able to get same result with RAW setting as well as with later ones.
There may be some things which you may want to ideally do on RAW, but from what I read it's really not much and debatable how much in reality you can gain from doing so.
In summary- if you debayer your RAW footage based on camera settings into wide enough color space and later process it in 32bit float you should never loose any useful information. In this case RAW settings are meaningless. Is this not the idea behind ACES basically?
Last edited by Andrew Kolakowski on Sat Feb 15, 2020 12:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Grading Prores Raw

PostSat Feb 15, 2020 12:13 am

Jim Simon wrote:BRAW is frustrating in ACES for the same reason.

I assume this is down to what you more use to.
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Re: Grading Prores Raw

PostSat Feb 15, 2020 12:24 am

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:With todays 32bit float engine you should be able to get same result with RAW setting as well as with later ones.
There may be some things which you may want to ideally do on RAW, but from what I read it's really not much and debatable how much in reality you can gain from doing so.
In summary- if you debayer your RAW footage based on camera settings into wide enough color space and later process it in 32bit float you should never loose any useful information. In this case RAW settings are meaningless. Is this not the idea behind ACES basically?


Pretty much this.

if you go back form your intermediate LOG file to linear light, then you start to apply a math that is very very similar to the one used by the stage after the debayer (the one that change exposure/WB) arriving at a result that is indistinguishably form the RAW control...
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Re: Grading Prores Raw

PostSat Feb 15, 2020 12:32 am

This is probably why FCPX has such limited RAW settings. They're basically not really so important in modern app.
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Re: Grading Prores Raw

PostSat Feb 15, 2020 12:43 am

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:This is probably why FCPX has such limited RAW settings. They're basically not really so important in modern app.


I also find (at my level of DoP) that the camera is set ahead of the shoot at given condition, like (alexa) 800ISO and 3200K WB, and the DoP never touch it and it is debayered as is in the end...

I think it could be desirable in documentaries, but if you have to mess up the RAW a lot, your lighting/shoot has some to be desired....
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Re: Grading Prores Raw

PostSat Feb 15, 2020 7:35 am

waltervolpatto wrote:I also find (at my level of DoP) that the camera is set ahead of the shoot at given condition, like (alexa) 800ISO and 3200K WB, and the DoP never touch it and it is debayered as is in the end...

Regardless of cine camera, as DoP, this has been the same experience I have had in any production shoot I've been with - the camera is set ahead of the shoot at a given setting and it is not touched. What changes are the lighting and environment conditions to match or work with the settings.

I don't do documentaries but thinking that it may not have a controlled environment, it requires different procedure and the camera has to adopt.
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Re: Grading Prores Raw

PostSat Feb 15, 2020 4:05 pm

waltervolpatto wrote:
Andrew Kolakowski wrote:This is probably why FCPX has such limited RAW settings. They're basically not really so important in modern app.


I also find (at my level of DoP) that the camera is set ahead of the shoot at given condition, like (alexa) 800ISO and 3200K WB, and the DoP never touch it and it is debayered as is in the end...

I think it could be desirable in documentaries, but if you have to mess up the RAW a lot, your lighting/shoot has some to be desired....


If camera is set very badly then it's not only later controls, but also RAW ones won't save you.
Last edited by Andrew Kolakowski on Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Grading Prores Raw

PostSat Feb 15, 2020 5:46 pm

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:How many apps have support for BRAW? Can you remind me?

Currently after the first year it’s:

Davinci Resolve by Blackmagic Design
Blackmagic RAW Player by Blackmagic Design
Adobe Premiere Pro plugin by Blackmagic Design
Avid Media Composer plugin by Blackmagic Design
Silverstack by Pomfort
On-Set Dailies by Colorfront
EditReady by Divergent Media
Scratch by Assimilate
Baselight by FilmLight
ShotPut Pro by Imagine Products
ProVu by Imagine Products
PrimeTranscoder by Imagine Products
Lightworks by Editshare
BRAW Studio by Autokroma
Edius by Grass Valley
Screen by Video Village

With more on the way..
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Grading Prores Raw

PostSat Feb 15, 2020 9:27 pm

I wasn't really asking :) My point was it's not really more than ProResRAW has.
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Re: Grading Prores Raw

PostSat Feb 15, 2020 10:01 pm

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:I wasn't really asking :) My point was it's not really more than ProResRAW has.

Might be true, what’s the currently released supported list? I saw a few announced upcoming support but haven’t seen if they’re released yet.
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Re: Grading Prores Raw

PostSat Feb 15, 2020 10:58 pm

Quite similar to BRAW: Edius, Scratch, Cortex, Baselight, AVID, Colorfront.
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Re: Grading Prores Raw

PostSun Feb 16, 2020 2:49 am

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:Quite similar to BRAW: Edius, Scratch, Cortex, Baselight, AVID, Colorfront.


There is no ProRes RAW in Avid currently. There is AMA BRAW support though.
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Re: Grading Prores Raw

PostSun Feb 16, 2020 6:32 pm

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:
MishaEngel wrote:What is RAW about storing 4k ProResRAW captured from a full 6k Nikon sensor?


Nothing to do with ProResRAW itself, but camera manufacture choice:

https://www.eoshd.com/nikon/nikon-z6-pr ... or-output/


You got confirmation here:


Nikon uses line skipping. Just ask them why (HDMI bandwidth issue)? Again- nothing to do with ProResRAW itself.
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MishaEngel

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Re: Grading Prores Raw

PostSun Feb 16, 2020 7:41 pm

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:
Andrew Kolakowski wrote:
MishaEngel wrote:What is RAW about storing 4k ProResRAW captured from a full 6k Nikon sensor?


Nothing to do with ProResRAW itself, but camera manufacture choice:

https://www.eoshd.com/nikon/nikon-z6-pr ... or-output/


You got confirmation here:


Nikon uses line skipping. Just ask them why (HDMI bandwidth issue)? Again- nothing to do with ProResRAW itself.


Exactly, ProResRAW has no RAW characteristics(many degrees of freedom to manipulate the sensor data) and I still don't know what it is in technical terms(it's the greatest invention since sliced bread according to Apple and it's beliebers).
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Grading Prores Raw

PostSun Feb 16, 2020 8:07 pm

What are you talking about?
It's just an answer to your question (as you don't provide facts but "bla bla bla") why you don't get full sensor readout. It's because Nikon chosen not to provide it over HDMI (they skip some lines). It has absolutely nothing to do with ProResRAW.
Pointless discussion.
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Uli Plank

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Re: Grading Prores Raw

PostMon Feb 17, 2020 2:21 am

The Sigma fp also does very ugly looking line skipping when you are trying to shoot higher speeds than 30 fps and ProRes RAW right now is only announced for it. So, where is the connection?
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Grading Prores Raw

PostMon Feb 17, 2020 1:57 pm

Not in ProResRAW for sure. It has nothing to do with it. You can feed it with any RAW signal- it just compresses it.
Ask camera manufacturer or Atomos. Maybe problem is with HDMI bandwidth.
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Jim Simon

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Re: Grading Prores Raw

PostMon Feb 17, 2020 3:47 pm

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:I assume this is down to what you more use to.


Admittedly so.

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