color workflow for Pro Res output

I'm working on a 5K 27" IMac with a Flanders video monitor connected via BlackMagic UltraStudio Mini Monitor. I think I get how to set everything up for grading to Vimeo or YouTube using 709-A to generate files that are tagged 1-1-1, and so that my mac screen matches my Flanders . There are lots of tutorials about how to do this now on the web.

However i need to take files shot in an FX9 in Slog3 and color correct them for my client by adding a LUT ( or using CST) so they can use them for editing . I will be providing my client with ProRes files ( either 422 or ProRes HQ.). I'm wondering how to set up my workflow so the exported ProRes files will be correctly interpreted by an NLE and so my Flanders will continue to match the image in Resolve on my IMac ( if thats possible.)
Frankly all this stuff with color tags, timeline and preference settings, and Data vs Video levels can be quite confusing and as I understand it NLE's seem to have a set way of interpreting anything that comes in as ProRes so i don't want to mess that up.

Do I want to export them at Video/Legal or Data/Full levels and what color tags? Do i want to aim for 1-2-1 tags with a gamma of 2.4 rather than the 1-1-1 I was using for YouTube? I tried a test yesterday and my Prores Files ended up with tag of 12-1-1. What the heck does that mean? Do all ProRes files have 12-1-1 tags?

In fact if anyone knows a good article or video explaining color tags that goes beyond just 1-1-1 and 1-2-1 that would be appreciated.

Thanks , Lenny

Do I want to export them at Video/Legal or Data/Full levels and what color tags? Do i want to aim for 1-2-1 tags with a gamma of 2.4 rather than the 1-1-1 I was using for YouTube? I tried a test yesterday and my Prores Files ended up with tag of 12-1-1. What the heck does that mean? Do all ProRes files have 12-1-1 tags?

In fact if anyone knows a good article or video explaining color tags that goes beyond just 1-1-1 and 1-2-1 that would be appreciated.

Thanks , Lenny

First "Levels" have nothing to do with "color-tag", they are independents.
Second 12-1-1 means Gamut = P3D65, Gamut = Rec709
Can you send a screen capture of you project settings and your Deliver ➧ Job settings ... and we can solve this mystery

a link :

Thanks for responding Olivier.
That link looks great but can you provide an address on the web for it . I don't seem to be able to make it any bigger in this discussion thread,

Yes i do realize that color tags and levels are different issues , just that they are both issues I need to get right.
I haven't set up my workflow for this yet and was hoping someone could provide me with the right settings so the ProRes files work correctly for my client . By the way I'm not sure but I think she is working in either FCP X or Premiere, though I don't think it should make a difference.

Should ProRes files always have a 12-1-1 tag ?

If it matters I usually use DaVinci YRGB. I'll probably use color space transform to correct the SLog3 rather than a LUT but i don't think that matters.

(Incidently after tearing my hair out quite a bit I finally realized that a really simple but important trick in getting the Imac and the Flanders screens to agree is simple to set the brightness of the Mac to match the Flanders. Seems very basic but no one ever mentions it. )

Thanks - bedtime for me now.

What is your client editing with (which NLE)? It matters because, for example, Premiere apparently always assumes that a ProRes file is at video levels (I first encountered this with the ProRes files written by the Atomos Ninja V external video recorder) - you need to go through hoops if you have actually written the ProRes file with data levels (whereas in Resolve you can simply change the clip attributes).

Also - am I to understand that editing will take place in display-referred space rather than scene-referred? Is this just to make things easier for the editor and will it be coming back to Resolve for the actual grading where the camera originals will once again be used to grade the show? If so, can't the editor use a LUT during editing for this purpose, using camera originals? Maybe I missed the motivation for your post and frankly, it doesn't matter if you are planning to conform the edits back in Resolve to the camera originals...

Thanks for responding Olivier.
That link looks great but can you provide an address on the web for it . I don't seem to be able to make it any bigger in this discussion thread,

try the share button on the video .. you'll have the link to the source (bonus advice not related to davinci )

Should ProRes files always have a 12-1-1 tag ?

Again ➧ color tag and Codec are two separate things
So is answer is : no not ALWAYS

There are other factors that need to be taken into account that will determine whether you'll need an additional output transform and how best to tag the output file.
How is your client viewing the files — in the app GUI or out to external reference display?
If client is viewing in the app GUI, what app are they using and on what OS?
In what lighting condition are you viewing the image on your Flanders — a brightly lit office environment, or in the dim surround of a studio reference environment?
In what lighting condition will your client be viewing the image — a brightly lit office environment, or in the dim surround of a studio reference environment?
All of these factors determine the correct workflow to produce results that will be both interpreted correctly on the client system and also perceptually similar for the lighting environment in which they are viewing the image relative to the lighting environment in which you are viewing the image.

Thanks to Olivier for that "share " button tip. Obvious, but I didn't know it . I'll get to watch that later today and maybe it will answer all my questions.
meanwhile jamie, I think that's really overthinking what I'm asking . All i want to do is send a file out to someone who will edit in their home office. Basically want to replicate what a camera recording ProRes would have done. The camera doesn't ask how you will be editing , but an NLE doesn't expect original footage to look like something color corrected for youtube.
Yes I could just try to explain to my client how to apply a LUT herself , but sometimes its easier to just do it yourself. I know a lot of camera people do this before they even send out their originals to clients. I usually don't - just hand it off, so its a little different for me.

Fair enough.

The camera manufacturer LUTs and camera HDMI/SDI output pipelines are designed for the image to be going direct to a BT1886 display. (assuming we are talking SDR here, not HDR)

The NLEs will all display exactly that same image when sent out to a BT1886 reference monitor connected via BMD or AJA i/o box. It’s the software GUI viewer and outputs to web/mobile where it all gets complicated and is different depending on the app, the OS and the NCLC tagging on the file.

Olivier, thanks that was a great explanation of NLCL tags though I wish it had used Resolve as an example instead of baseline but its all applicable.
Nevertheless my question hangs out there and its pretty simple . How should I set up for basically dubbing my camera 's Slog files into ProRes with the Luts added in such a way that the NLE will interpret them correctly as if they were camera files. ( Do Premiere, FCP and Resolve handle ProRes differenty?)

-Do I want to use a 709-A timeline or a gamma 2.4 timeline as I I think i would if I was grading for theatrical projection ?
-Tag them with 1-1-1 which I think I would be for the web ( i think that implies 709-A timeline??)
-Legal or Data levels ?( I'm guessing Legal?).

My client isn't doing a final grade here and will probably look at this stuff in daytime and night . I just want to insure that i don't for example send Pro Res file with data levels and the NLE crushes her blacks by automatically mistakenly converting what it thinks are Legal.
Likewise i don't want the files to look incorrectly flat or too contrasty . Just a rule of thumb method for converting originals to ProRes.
I've had the same issue in the past when dubbing some files I needed to correct for noise reduction with Neat Video. At that time I just wanted to copy 709 camera files to Pro Res after Neat was applied but I kept getting gamma errors and didn't know what was going on.

Resolve will always correctly interpret the level of files recorded in camera. Where people run into incorrect input level interpretations is with external recorders. On the Deliver page just leave the levels option set to auto. All the other NLEs will interpret the level of that ProRes output file correctly as long as you’re not trying to output a log encoded file.

The NCLC tags are totally separate from legal vs data levels and largely irrelevant in NLE GUI viewers for SDR media since none of the other NLEs manage the image in SDR based on NCLC tags (and even Resolve only reads certain tags and even then only when working in RCM mode). The image may have a different gamma in the NLE GUI depending on the NLE, the OS, and the display settings, but changing the NCLC tags of an SDR file will have no impact on the GUI viewer image in FCP, Premiere or Avid. You’d have to add a color space transform in Resolve if you want to change how an SDR file is displayed in the GUI viewer in those other NLEs.
Output to the web or for playback in QuickTime Player (or similar color managed apps) is a different story.

Thanks Jamie,
Does it matter whether my timeline is 709-A or 709 gamma 2.4 since I'm not going for delivery to the web ? I guess I'm asking re my own grading and syncing with my flanders , as much as my output colorspace.

Sorry if these questions sound dumb but its pretty confusing stuff.

Are you working in an ACES or a Resolve Color Managed project? If not, the output color space setting has no impact on what you see on your Flanders display.

plain DaVinci YRGB so neither Aces nor Davinci Color managed.

But what about the timeline colorspace?

plain DaVinci YRGB so neither Aces nor Davinci Color managed.

But what about the timeline colorspace?

In an unmanaged YRGB project the timeline color space setting only affects the calculations used in certain color space aware tools like the HDR wheels and the color warper. It doesn’t by itself change anything about the signal going out to your Flanders.

Thanks Jaimie,, but I'm still confused.

Changing the timeline color space has a huge affect on what I see on my Imac screen, though not on my Flanders at all. If i'm grading to my flanders though doesn't the timeline color space mean or affect anything ?

It seems to match my Flanders at 709-A but with 709 2.4 its darker .

I'm asking these questions not only fior this small project but I have a bigger one coming up where I will be grading a documentary . In that case I suspect I'll want to make one grade for the web, one for film festival projection and one for broadcast . I assume at least the web one should be different , but those will be the next dumb questions I'll be asking here.

Grading seems easy to me compared to these workflow issues.

Grade for your Flanders, the computer GUI image is absolutely irrelevant. Your Flanders is a reference display. Trust it. That’s why you paid for it.
I assume your Flanders is calibrated to REC709 gamma 2.4 and you’re working in a dim surround reference environment, and make sure the output is tagged accordingly. That’s your master file, and the one to use for broadcast (or Amazon, iTunes, etc).

For a DCP for theaters, send your master file to a service that makes DCPs.

For the web, it depends on what you’re trying to target. PC browsers are unmanaged. For those you can’t really do anything to control for the image, NCLC tags are irrelevant on PC and the 2.2 gamma of a standard PC sRGB display will be more or less correct for normally lit environments when playing a 2.4 gamma file.
If you’re instead targeting Apple devices, then take the master file and add a color space transform that goes from 2.2 gamma input to REC709-A output, and tag the output as REC709-A (note that you need both the transform and the tag, doing only one of them won’t do it).
When putting things on the web, we have to choose our priority target between unmanaged PC or managed Apple device.

Thanks again and thanks for your patience with me. I appreciate it.
Yes Flanders is set up for gamma 2.4 ( and video levels)

OK I think I am slowly getting it. I'm not concerned with PC's . So for Mac internet you said I need to both make sure a transform and the tag are going to 709-A . Where are those 2 different places in resolve?
(I know I can mark the output color space 709-A on the deliverable page and I can make it my timeline color space though that's apparently irrelevant ) .
- Do I also need to check off "Automatically Tag Rec 709 scene clips as Rec 709-A" in the general preferences?
On other issues:
For netflix etc . I can use 709-A as a timeline color space, but output to 709 gamma 2.4
For outputting my files for client to ProRes, don't worry about the Legal/Data business just click auto.

- Last Question . Do I want to output those Pro Res files for my client as 709 gamma 2.4 rather than 709-A . That makes sense to me since cameras are not outputting gamma for web they are oputputting for the monitor i.e. 2.4


As a side note I've been reading the Resolve Help manual and came across:

"If you render QuickTime files from the Deliver page, then color space tags will be embedded into each file based on either the Timeline Color Space (if Resolve Color Management is disabled) or the Output Color Space (if Resolve Color Management is enabled). Two settings in the Advanced Settings of the Render Settings let you choose how color space metadata will be embedded into your output for supported media formats, “Color Space Tag,” and “Gamma Tag.” These default to “Same as Project,” which will match the Output Color Space currently selected in the Project Settings."

That sounds contradictory to me. It says if I'm not using RCM (that's mne) then the output color space will be determined by the Timeline Color Space , but both the manual and you have said the timeline space is irrelevant to the output . ( I can set the output to the match the timeline but that's a setting not a default.) Then in the next sentence it says the the default deliverables "Same as Project" will match the Output Color Space in the project settings .
- Isn't that telling me 2 contradictory defaults for non color managed Projects?

That information is out of date. Which version of the manual were you quoting?
Which version of Resolve are you using?

I'd recommend updating to the latest version of Resolve and making sure you're reading the latest version of the manual (it is always available from the support section of the BMD website). Since v18 of Resolve the GUI viewer and the default output tags are determined by the output color space setting, in all modes.

I'm sure I missed this, but what is your client using these ProRes files for? Is it to work up an edit that will flow back to Resolve to perform the final grading with original source media or will they be forever finishing in these ProRes files?

Steve,

Hmm That's actually a good question . Its an exploratory project . Could turn into a doc. May go nowhere, but likely if it goes anywhere that I would do the color back in Resolve though client will edit in FCP X.
I could actually make full size proxies in pro res and then just color those for her, so if it comes back we'd have the originals. Does that make sense if she's not editing in Resolve?

Lenny

Steve,

Hmm That's actually a good question . Its an exploratory project . Could turn into a doc. May go nowhere, but likely if it goes anywhere that I would do the color back in Resolve though client will edit in FCP X.
I could actually make full size proxies in pro res and then just color those for her, so if it comes back we'd have the originals. Does that make sense if she's not editing in Resolve?

Lenny

Hi Lenny,

I'm sure there's a workflow for that if you are colouring back in Resolve. When I used to work with Avid, is wasn't uncommon to provide the editor with approximate graded proxies to work with during the edit and to conform back to source media in Resolve so that the full camera originals (with all their color and resolution detail) could be used to grade and finish. Of course, this limits things like VFX done by the editor - they would need to perform more or less straight cuts and simply transitions, I believe and anything beyond that would need to be reproduced in Resolve. I would think that someone on this forum would have experience doing exactly what you are describing. They just haven't chimed-in yet.

This series of videos covers the process for making dailies/proxies in Resolve for edit in another NLE. The example used is Avid, but it applies to any NLE. Only difference for FCP is that ALE files aren't needed and the render codec would be Quicktime wrapped ProResProxy rather than the MXF wrapped DNx used in Avid.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjMps7ix838AhWALzQIHYNgADkQtwJ6BAgLEAI&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DYNpgl7weKEY&usg=AOvVaw3EA6h4A0sTmJiKVgsMhKk7

Unfortunately that clip is not playing . I've used optimized media often for 4K multicam footage . Anything special i need to do if i share it with someone on another NLE . i guess the question is how to reconnect.

Dang, yeah, direct link to YouTube appears not to work inside the forum at the moment for some unknown reason.

Search in YouTube for:

Creating Dailies in Davinci Resolve for Avid Media Composer (Part 1/7)

Optimized media cannot be shared with another NLE. To create proxies for another NLE, follow the workflow outlined in the video. For NLEs other than Avid, just skip the bit about ALE files and change the output codec to Quicktime wrapped ProResProxy instead of the Avid codec they show in the video.

Thanks those are working

Jaime that video is just for sending dailies to Avid , nothing about proxies at all.

After reading this lengthy post, I am going to throw a money wrench here. I do a lot of Prores intake from many different camera including Sony slog 2/3, BM Prores (film log), from external recorders, etc. The workflow I use is ACES and that’s it. IDT is whatever the Prores log or whatever raw codec used by the camera or recorder and ODT is in most cases, rec709 with gamma 2.4. Often times, I will have one or two transform in between and that’s it. Last node might have a styling LUT. Delivery is whatever my clients need - for editing codec it’s either back to Prores or DNXHD/R, for theatrical release in DCP (usually DCI-P3), for web just keep it in Rec 709 in mp4 container. I just keep it simple. Different folks have different strokes but at the end it is whatever works for you and your clients. Cheers.

Jaime that video is just for sending dailies to Avid , nothing about proxies at all.

Dailies is just another term for proxies. The person who made this video works on narrative movies in LA. They call them dailies, and it’s the same thing as a proxy. Resolve has an internal “generate proxies” command, but it’s not the right choice for round trip workflows because it does not include reel name metadata.