10-bit color in OSX

Does the new release from today mean we can reliably grade on a monitor like this one:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1 ... 60_dh.html

Is there now a way to maneuver around having to purchase a ridiculously expensive monitor?

You'll always want serious calibrating with 3D-LUTs after profiling with sufficient amount of patches.
Let it be 8bit or 10bit. This alone doesn't mean much.

If you can calibrate your DELL close enough to REC709, you can use it for grading.
I doubt it will work...

The FSI monitors are among the least expensive grading monitors. For a reason. Believe me.

I use a EIZO CG247 computer display. But it is at least profiled and calibrated with Lightspace CMS and 3D-LUT and gets its 10bit signal via BM Mini Monitor.
Nevertheless, I don't have a grading Monitor but a workaround with a computer monitor.

Mini Monitor, CMS (+Win OS), probe and the EIZO have not been much cheaper in the end than one of the less expensive FSI monitors.

That's at least my experience.
YMMV

New iMac screens claim 99% P3 coverage, so this sounds good.
This maybe the reason why we suddenly have 10bit support through GUI in Resolve.

You'll want to calibrate nevertheless, but the 27" iMac screen can come very close to Rec 709 too.

The Dell is very hard to calibrate and it never really get's there, it's a typical office monitor.

If you want something cheap (but large), get a recent UHD TV from LG or Samsung and switch off all the fancy "enhancements". If you dig the menus and set them right, they can be quite close these days.

Latest TVs shouldn't have problems with Rec709. Some are about 90% P3.

The argument has become clearer to me over time...
If your client is under 30, grade on a computer display.
If you client is over 30, grade on an external broadcast monitor.
In other words you need both depending on your market. Accepting this will make life easier.

I so wish this forum had the ability to 'like' a post...

The argument has become clearer to me over time...
If your client is under 30, grade on a computer display.
If you client is over 30, grade on an external broadcast monitor.
In other words you need both depending on your market. Accepting this will make life easier.

that explains a lot.

The ultimate truth of the day!

Whichever monitor you use, you need to be sure it is accurate. The End.

The argument has become clearer to me over time... If your client is under 30, grade on a computer display. If you client is over 30, grade on an external broadcast monitor. In other words you need both depending on your market. Accepting this will make life easier.

I wish you were wrong, Paul, but sadly, I think you're correct.

Looks like this one could be a nice solution:

http://www.eizo.com/products/coloredge/cg318-4k/

I guess where this one surpasses FSI monitors is in the 4K resolution. At %98 DCI-P3 this should about cover it, no?

Looks like this one could be a nice solution:

http://www.eizo.com/products/coloredge/cg318-4k/

I guess where this one surpasses FSI monitors is in the 4K resolution. At %98 DCI-P3 this should about cover it, no?

As you can see the green phosphor is way off the P3DCI, so either the monitor has an internal way to put a 3D LUT or your way off in your colorimetry. Using the computer ICC profiles are not a solution.

This is about the best you can get at this price level for 4K.
Another level will be Panasonic, Canon up to the best money can buy Sony 4K OLED. This is at least x5 in the price

Looks like this one could be a nice solution:

http://www.eizo.com/products/coloredge/cg318-4k/

I guess where this one surpasses FSI monitors is in the 4K resolution. At %98 DCI-P3 this should about cover it, no?

As you can see the green phosphor is way off the P3DCI, so either the monitor has an internal way to put a 3D LUT or your way off in your colorimetry. Using the computer ICC profiles are not a solution.

Native gamut is off- when you choose P3 preset than it's limited to proper P3. The only issues is that it misses this 2% mainly in green area. Eizo has probably the best processing engine, which uses 16bit LUTs. This is a serious monitor, not a toy.
I've been told that it matches projectors very well.

Looks like this one could be a nice solution:

http://www.eizo.com/products/coloredge/cg318-4k/

I guess where this one surpasses FSI monitors is in the 4K resolution. At %98 DCI-P3 this should about cover it, no?

As you can see the green phosphor is way off the P3DCI, so either the monitor has an internal way to put a 3D LUT or your way off in your colorimetry. Using the computer ICC profiles are not a solution.

Native gamut is off- when you choose P3 preset than it's limited to proper P3. The only issues is that it misses this 2% mainly in green area. Eizo has probably the best processing engine, which uses 16bit LUTs. This is a serious monitor, not a toy.
I've been told that it matches projectors very well.

good to know!

(BTW, even some grade 1 projector engines if you go down and measure them, thew not always hit P3DCI 100%)

So what we're talking about is OSX's native support of 10-bit which relates only to grading on the computer monitor using the Mac's GPU card connection to the monitor. If I'm using HDMI from a DeckLink card, this conversation is moot, right?

Does this new support of 10-bit on Mac negates the need for a DeckLink 4K card? There's obviously no need for SDI in this configuration, and it looks like DeckLink HDMI is also unnecessary.

Well- I'm not saying it's 100% bang on (it doesn't 100% cover P3), but monitor itself is 1st class as with many Eizo products. If we consider home or small studio users than this is definitely "good enough". We're not talking about grading for A class movie. This sort of monitors are actually used by big studios for Nuke, Maya etc artist, who work on big projects.
Projectors always look bit different. I've seen Sony 4K OLED next to proper projector and if I had to choose I would go for Sony due to proper black levels.

If someone wants to have good 4K reference monitor for Rec.709 or P3 at realistic price this is definitely good choice. As I said- after this we are talking about products for 5-10x money of this monitor (with nothing in between).

So what we're talking about is OSX's native support of 10-bit which relates only to grading on the computer monitor using the Mac's GPU card connection to the monitor. If I'm using HDMI from a DeckLink card, this conversation is moot, right?

Does this new support of 10-bit on Mac negates the need for a DeckLink 4K card? There's obviously no need for SDI in this configuration, and it looks like DeckLink HDMI is also unnecessary.

In theory yes, it could replace your BM card, but at the moment this is not the case in practice. There are still "problems" and for the price of BM cards I would rather get one than fight with all these problems. Let BM and Apple polish it.

I'd be quite careful too regarding direct 10 bit display as a reference before further testing.

But I second (or third) that the Eizo CG318 is the best you can buy for less than 5K Euro and even far above that. We recently measured it with a Klein K-10 and it was leaving a Panasonic 4K broadcast monitor for more than twice the price in the dust.

Of course you could connect it as a GUI, but what a waste! Give it an Intensity Pro for a few bucks more and it will shine as a proper reference.

Price on this Panasonic monitor is a joke:)
Canon is okish, but also way overpriced.
Only Sony can charge such a money for their 4K OLED as no one else has such a technology and it's superior to any LCD 4K.

The one solution which seams to work fine with 10bit pipe through GPU is Scratch on Windows.

if that monitor is great, can you just calibrate it, use a mini monitor (150$) and use in lieu of a proper hd reference?

Yes, why not. It also has Rec.709 preset. It should also support all frame rates, not just 60Hz- not sure about interlaced signal though. Having 2 even good monitors to each other is never a good idea

This Eizo monitor has only HDMI 1.2 - in the reviews I read they all mention the lack of HDMI 2.0 as pretty serious drawback.

They also cite in the reviews the Gray Refresh Rate (whatever the F that means) as 9ms, which is claimed to be pretty slow (for gaming, intense actions scenes. As most of my work is documentary with Ken Burns style moving images, it's not a deal breaker for us.

So, to sum it up, the Eizo is great monitor, there's no real reason to connect to it using OSX's native 10-bit support over miniDisplay yet as BM and Apple have to work out some kinks, but it will still display DCI-P3, Rec. 709, Rec. 2020 and 10-bit whatever over HDMI.

Am I correct? Did I leave anything out?

Is BMD going to add 10bit colour viewing in Windows via GPU's?

Since Windows has supported full 10bit pipelines for years, and so have apps like Photoshop and Premiere on Windows, why is BMD supporting Apple's OS's which have only just acquired 10bit support without adding this for Windows users?

Wasn't it supported all the time?

I think I tested this a while back and I think it was supported. I'll need to double check when I get home. I still wouldn't use the GUI for monitoring though.

To add my 2 cents:
I have the EIZO CG247, which has the same engine, software and gamut as the CG318.

The 709 and P3 presets are okay'ish but far from accurate.
I calibrated mine with Lightspace and own 3D-LUT to Rec.709.
The drawback when using your own 3D-LUT is the black level.
The EIZO just can't go below 0.2cd/m2, which is just not what you want from a grading panel.

It is because EIZO doesn't allow any settings when using external 3D-LUT. White level is fixed at 130cd/m.

You can choose now:
a) good accuracy with bad black level/contrast ratio
b) better black level/contrast (0.15cd/m2) with bad color/gamma accuracy

I have seen calibrated FSIs and the cheapest just look better than any accurately calibrated EIZO.

That's how it is.
Choose computer displays for GUI but use grading monitors for accuracy...

I'm in contact with EIZO, but I don't think that they will allow external calibration and internal hardware settings one day.

Strange. We measured 0.0353 for black with the DCI settings and 45.942 cd/m2 with the Eizo CG318.

It's important to remember that even within the same manufacturing line and same model monitors can vary. The lesson learned is that we need to test the Eizo in our environment and hope it functions as desired - I have good reason to believe it will.

The problem with FSI is that they don't support 4K - it would be a tough sell to my clients who all work and finish in 4K. I can already imagine the conversation:

Me: "So, you're watching an HD image, so it's not full rez, but what you need to be looking for is the color, you see, this FSI monitor is amazing at showing you the black levels and no gradient in color."

Client: "But we're looking at quarter resolution."

-"Yes, but..."

-"Why can't we see the whole 4K image?"

-"Well... the color is more important than the number of pixels you're seeing... you see, there are actually three types of resolution: pixel resolution, which is the frame size, bit-depth resolution which is the color, and spatial resolution which is the frames per second. The color is the tricky one..."

-"Your competitor has a full 4K TV that he grades on..."

It's important to remember that even within the same manufacturing line and same model monitors can vary. The lesson learned is that we need to test the Eizo in our environment and hope it functions as desired - I have good reason to believe it will.

The problem with FSI is that they don't support 4K - it would be a tough sell to my clients who all work and finish in 4K. I can already imagine the conversation:

Me: "So, you're watching an HD image, so it's not full rez, but what you need to be looking for is the color, you see, this FSI monitor is amazing at showing you the black levels and no gradient in color."

Client: "But we're looking at quarter resolution."

-"Yes, but..."

-"Why can't we see the whole 4K image?"

-"Well... the color is more important than the number of pixels you're seeing... you see, there are actually three types of resolution: pixel resolution, which is the frame size, bit-depth resolution which is the color, and spatial resolution which is the frames per second. The color is the tricky one..."

-"Your competitor has a full 4K TV that he grades on..."

what we actually have is a 4K monitor (not color accurate 100%) for presentation and pixel to pixel accuracy and a small OLED sony for color accuracy...

(not a cheap setup)

To add my 2 cents:
I have the EIZO CG247, which has the same engine, software and gamut as the CG318.

The 709 and P3 presets are okay'ish but far from accurate.
I calibrated mine with Lightspace and own 3D-LUT to Rec.709.
The drawback when using your own 3D-LUT is the black level.
The EIZO just can't go below 0.2cd/m2, which is just not what you want from a grading panel.

It is because EIZO doesn't allow any settings when using external 3D-LUT. White level is fixed at 130cd/m.

You can choose now:
a) good accuracy with bad black level/contrast ratio
b) better black level/contrast (0.15cd/m2) with bad color/gamma accuracy

I have seen calibrated FSIs and the cheapest just look better than any accurately calibrated EIZO.

That's how it is.
Choose computer displays for GUI but use grading monitors for accuracy...

I'm in contact with EIZO, but I don't think that they will allow external calibration and internal hardware settings one day.

Sorry, but these monitors are very different.
4K one is based on very new an very different panel. You are quoting numbers from different model First measure new 4K model than share your comments
Even Eizo says 93% DCI for CG247 and 98% for new 4K one. So not sure why you claim they are the same? There is also almost 2 years in technology difference between them.
Other than this- we're talking about 4K monitors, not HD. For HD choice is much bigger. For 4K panel choice is very limited, so neither Dolby neither FSI can offer anything decent, as both rely on 3rd party panels. Sony with their OLED 4K panel rules at the moment. And it does HDR up to 1000 nits
As far as I know FSI DM series is based on Sony OLED panels.

This is a smaller brother of the 4K one:

http://www.prad.de/new/monitore/test/20 ... Einleitung

It's important to remember that even within the same manufacturing line and same model monitors can vary. The lesson learned is that we need to test the Eizo in our environment and hope it functions as desired - I have good reason to believe it will.

The problem with FSI is that they don't support 4K - it would be a tough sell to my clients who all work and finish in 4K. I can already imagine the conversation:

Me: "So, you're watching an HD image, so it's not full rez, but what you need to be looking for is the color, you see, this FSI monitor is amazing at showing you the black levels and no gradient in color."

Client: "But we're looking at quarter resolution."

-"Yes, but..."

-"Why can't we see the whole 4K image?"

-"Well... the color is more important than the number of pixels you're seeing... you see, there are actually three types of resolution: pixel resolution, which is the frame size, bit-depth resolution which is the color, and spatial resolution which is the frames per second. The color is the tricky one..."

-"Your competitor has a full 4K TV that he grades on..."

what we actually have is a 4K monitor (not color accurate 100%) for presentation and pixel to pixel accuracy and a small OLED sony for color accuracy...

(not a cheap setup)

Get Sony 4K OLED and you will have 2 in one (just 30" though). The problem that it will be even more expensive

they want 50" for presentation

I know
But Sony has problems with making these high-end OLED panels at big sizes

that why we have two. ...

OLED for us is way too expensive, and we're not in such a mission critical environment (all clients' projects so far were 8-bit Rec 709 graded on 8-bit monitors from Panasonic and Sony and DCPs looked great) that would require the absolute best - that's where that Eizo monitor comes in handy - full 4K resolution and DCI-P3 color space. And at 31" it's large enough for client to sit at the throne where the colorist sits normally and enjoy his movie.

Now, will DeckLink 4K Extreme power the Eizo at full 4K resolution DCI-P3 color space over HDMI 1.4?

OLED for us is way too expensive, and we're not in such a mission critical environment (all clients' projects so far were 8-bit Rec 709 graded on 8-bit monitors from Panasonic and Sony and DCPs looked great) that would require the absolute best - that's where that Eizo monitor comes in handy - full 4K resolution and DCI-P3 color space. And at 31" it's large enough for client to sit at the throne where the colorist sits normally and enjoy his movie.

Now, will DeckLink 4K Extreme power the Eizo at full 4K resolution DCI-P3 color space over HDMI 1.4?

It should, but only up to 25fps (or 24fps) for 4K and 30fps for UHD.
If you want UHD/4K at 30fps up to 60 than you need to use DisplayPort 1.2 on Eizo, so things get complicated
Check your PM.

You'll always want serious calibrating with 3D-LUTs after profiling with sufficient amount of patches.
Let it be 8bit or 10bit. This alone doesn't mean much.

If you can calibrate your DELL close enough to REC709, you can use it for grading.
I doubt it will work...

The FSI monitors are among the least expensive grading monitors. For a reason. Believe me.

I use a EIZO CG247 computer display. But it is at least profiled and calibrated with Lightspace CMS and 3D-LUT and gets its 10bit signal via BM Mini Monitor.
Nevertheless, I don't have a grading Monitor but a workaround with a computer monitor.

Mini Monitor, CMS (+Win OS), probe and the EIZO have not been much cheaper in the end than one of the less expensive FSI monitors.

That's at least my experience.
YMMV

Erik, are you running SDI or HDMI to your CG247?

The EIZO has only HDMI and DP Inputs. No SDI...
I use the HDMI out of the MiniMonitor to feed the HDMI in of the EIZO. It works and can be calibrated with ColorNavigator or Lightspace CMS. Both are not ideal but Lightspace delivers a more accurate calibration.

A nice review of some of the older Eizo models here in case anyone's not seen it:

http://www.jasonmyres.com/2014/07/using ... g-monitor/

CX is a mid range model (it's even not CG)- new 4K is another level.
CX will be half the money of cheaper FSI (BM model which has 8bit panel) when we just talk about the price.

Back to new Mac displays.
I had a look at them today at airport. One which I saw had all different profiles loaded- iMac, P3 Mac, P3 SMPTE, Rec709, Rec.2020 linear. They did look very good in terms of standards. iMac is about the same as Mac P3 with 2.4 gamma, but P3 SMPTE had proper 2.6 gamma. It looks like profiles were done according to proper standards, so this is good I assume. Display looked good, but one would have to measure it properly to be able to tell how close it's to P3 gamut.

Th problem is neither 8/10bit nor the size of the gamut.

The problem is how the display can be manipulated to show the correct gamut/contrast.
The OS allows ICC profiles but not 3D-LUTs so it can't be calibrated properly.

I have seen the new display here too. Looks really good, yes.
I think this will be some nice GUI monitor but never a properly calibrated grading display...

On the subject of 'affordable' but accurate monitors, there are one or two little known Certified Photographic monitors made and sold in Asia which often don't make it to the rest of the world. In a lot of cases, the Asian market is so large, they don't even need to sell to the West. My DaVinci Resolve OxygenTec ProPanel control surface is a good case in point - superb unit at a great price but relatively unknown in the West.


For HD monitoring, I use a BenQ PG2401PT 10bit IPS monitor with Resolve and it is available from B&H in North America. Each monitor is individually calibrated with a detailed report but features 14bit 3D LUTs on board so can be reliably re-calibrated with LightSpace (or similar) and a probe. The PG2401PT is a 16:10 HD monitor and can run at 50 or 60Hz for PAL or NTSC countries and supports 99% of the Adobe RGB and 100% of sRGB and has a dedicated Rec.709 setting as well. 10 bit inputs are from DP and DVI-D but as I use a Decklink SDI 4K Pro PCIe card, I simply use a BMD SDI to DP converter. Clients love it!

BenQ PG2401PT Colour Managed 10bit IPS monitor

pg2401pt.jpg (75.56 KiB) Viewed 12843 times

http://www.notebookcheck.net/Apple-iMac ... 325.0.html

suggests that P3 gamut coverage is really at 99% and screen has very good uniformity.

Wow what a terrific response from everyone, thank you all!

I have an iMac 5k and calibrated the screen with a Datacolor Spyder 4. I also use a Flanders 8-bit calibrated monitor with an ultrastudio mini monitor feeding it using SDI.

Despite comments from some users that do not recommend using the Spyder or the iMac screen, I have achieved a very close match and would have no issues using the iMac screen to do a grade for the Web.

The important thing with monitor calibration is to be able to measure the screen with a proper probe designed for the purpose. Our eyes and brain will compensate for colour temperature variation and therefore cannot be trusted as the only measuring tool!

Also, the gamma response (black to white curve) can vary a lot between monitors. Typically the iMac screens are a bit crushed between 0-15% brightness, which helps with screen appearance for general computing but is awful for colour grading. Some monitors also clip 'super-whites' (100-109 IRE) and so can cause issues with video editing, compositing & grading. This is compounded by the full range (0-1023) and video range (64-960) levels found in various different source media as the full range displays correctly on computer monitor but the video range does not, as bit 64-960 is mapped to the full monitor display range of 0-100% brightness. Anything outside those levels is truncated or clipped. It's quite common these days to have a mixture of full range and video range material in the same project.

PS in the PAL world EBU display gamma is most commonly set at 2.35

Maybe you just got a good Spyder. The problem with them is: they are all over the place. Too much sample variation.