Help with HDR Grade/rendering

Hello everyone! New to this forum, been using DaVinci for a few weeks now. I've come across some HDR footage that I'd like to try out grading and have a specific encoding list that i need to match when exporting...

Can someone help me make sense of it?

The HDR grade need:
40 Mbps (depends on source limits)
3840x2160p24 Hz, 10 bit, HEVC encoded L5.1 main tier
EOTF according to ST2084
BT2020 colour encoded
MaxFALL, MaxCLL metadata
Color grading on HDR reference monitor (4000 Nit (WCG) Encoding in MPEG4 container

When exporting normally, i use the presets with minor modifications depending on the need, but these specs seem a little bit foreign to me...Any help is much appreciated!

This way out of Resolve capabilities.
Search forum and you will find thread which describes how to do it.

So wait, Grading to these specifications, or just the encoding/exporting alone? Can you elaborate?
For example: I can Grade HDR in Resolve, but then have to jump through some sort of hoops to render out the specs I listed?

I recently noticed that the Divx encoder has an HEVC 4k option. Would it be possible to render out of Resolve in (insert specific format here) and encode it in the divx's converter while being able to conform it to the above listed specifications?

[Peter Chamberlain]

There are two parts here, 1) HDR grade, 2) packaging the deliverable.

The first task is to sort part 1 from 2. The chapter in the Resolve manual will assist but as a help here is my take on the separation.

Part 1- in Resolve
3840x2160p24 Hz, 10 bit
EOTF according to ST2084
BT2020 colour encoded
Color grading on HDR reference monitor (4000 Nit (WCG) This means Dolby Pulsar!)

Part 2 - deliverables in another app
40 Mbps (depends on source limits)
3840x2160p24 Hz, 10 bit, HEVC encoded (Encoding in MPEG4 container) L5.1 main tier
EOTF according to ST2084
BT2020 colour encoded
MaxFALL, MaxCLL metadata

As you can see some specs relate to both parts but if you grade part 1 in Resolve and render to a format, like EXR, then you can use another app to do the delivery.

Color grading on HDR reference monitor (4000 Nit (WCG) Encoding in MPEG4 container

Good luck in finding a monitor that can do 4000 nits. I'm not even sure the $100K+ Dolby Pulsar can do that reliably. 1000 nits, yes; 2000 nits; maybe. The $30,000 Sony BVM-X300 I'm pretty sure can only do 1000 nits.

1000 nits is 'about' enough with pure OLED black.
Dolby 4000 nits monitor is more like a 'laboratory equipment ' than a real thing. Using 1000s of LEDs which take kWs of energy and requires crazy cooling is not an approach which can produce 'real life' products. We need some new technology.

I recently noticed that the Divx encoder has an HEVC 4k option. Would it be possible to render out of Resolve in (insert specific format here) and encode it in the divx's converter while being able to conform it to the above listed specifications?

You can grade in Resolve, but need other tools to create h265 files with headers etc. Look for eg. 'H265 metadata' and you will find some explanation.

Color grading on HDR reference monitor (4000 Nit (WCG) Encoding in MPEG4 container

Good luck in finding a monitor that can do 4000 nits. I'm not even sure the $100K+ Dolby Pulsar can do that reliably. 1000 nits, yes; 2000 nits; maybe. The $30,000 Sony BVM-X300 I'm pretty sure can only do 1000 nits.

agree, and the pulsar is 1920x1080, but somewhat irrelevant: Netflix REQUIREMENTS is to grade on the pulsar, so you better go to a professional facility that own one....

1000 nits is 'about' enough with pure OLED black.
Dolby 4000 nits monitor is more like a 'laboratory equipment ' than a real thing. Using 1000s of LEDs which take kWs of energy and requires crazy cooling is not an approach which can produce 'real life' products. We need some new technology.

As it is, I believe the Dolby Pulsar monitor takes more than 20 amps of electricity and three AC cables, plus uses liquid cooling -- at least last time I saw one. Is this a practical venue for what we need for HDR?

I think there are a lot of things that are theoretically possible that are simply not practical or affordable right now in the real world. I think theatrical displays are one thing, since that's a built-in audience where the venue will pay for the technology. Expecting ordinary people to buy $10,000 or $20,000 monitors is not going to happen.

1000 nits is 'about' enough with pure OLED black.
Dolby 4000 nits monitor is more like a 'laboratory equipment ' than a real thing. Using 1000s of LEDs which take kWs of energy and requires crazy cooling is not an approach which can produce 'real life' products. We need some new technology.

As it is, I believe the Dolby Pulsar monitor takes more than 20 amps of electricity and three AC cables, plus uses liquid cooling -- at least last time I saw one. Is this a practical venue for what we need for HDR?

I think there are a lot of things that are theoretically possible that are simply not practical or affordable right now in the real world. I think theatrical displays are one thing, since that's a built-in audience where the venue will pay for the technology. Expecting ordinary people to buy $10,000 or $20,000 monitors is not going to happen.

Marc, I'm not saying that is practical....

fox use the x300 as grading monitor as requirement, Netflix use the pulsar.

for any other use, by any mean use the home LG.

Marc, I'm not saying that is practical.... fox use the x300 as grading monitor as requirement, Netflix use the pulsar. for any other use, by any mean use the home LG.

I was actually having a discussion with Andrew (who I quoted in the message) as saying I think a lot of people are worrying about a standard they can't actually see. If you can grade with a real Sony or Dolby monitor, or a Christie Laser Projector, that's great. But I think there's a lot of people expecting that they can do it with a $695 Costco monitor, and it's just not gonna happen.

I still want to know how they plan to calibrate their HDR displays to Rec2020 and BT2100.

calibration? di you need that???

calibration? di you need that???

I personally am calibrated every week. The monitor... not quite as frequently.

Hello everyone,

I was wondering if there is something new on this topic?
Can we now deliver metadata like MaxFALL and MaxCLL with Davinci?
Thank you for your help!

As long as people buy the HDR sets this is the very beginning of HDR technology in the home. Most TV's already have high resolution LED backlights and LED technology is growing by leaps and bounds each year.

There are currently high end consumer HDR displays that can top 2k nits at 60"+ This is only the 2nd year of consumer HDR. 4000 nits displayis rapidly approaching consumer hands.

Hello everyone,

I was wondering if there is something new on this topic?
Can we now deliver metadata like MaxFALL and MaxCLL with Davinci?
Thank you for your help!

You need:
-latest ffmpeg build with 10bit x265
-export 10bit uncompressed MOV (or ProResHQ or DNxHR HQX) from Resolve

fmpeg -i "source.mov" -pix_fmt yuv420p10le -c:v libx265 -preset slow -g 48 -b:v 100M -x265-params bframes=3:vbv-bufsize=150000:vbv-maxrate=150000:colorprim=bt2020:transfer=smpte-st-2084:colormatrix=bt2020nc:master-display="G(13250,34500)B(7500,3000)R(34000,16000)WP(15635,16450)L(10000000,500)":max-cll="1000,400" -c:a aac -b:a 320K "output.mp4"

This makes 100Mbit (with 150Mbit peak) h265 with:
- flags for P3 D65 white point
- mastering display luminance: min: 0.0500 cd/m2, max: 1000.0000 cd/m2
- MaxCLL=1000, MaxFALL=400 candela

Display primaries, white point are multiplied by 50000.

just adjust values per need (Netflix spec).

viewtopic.php?f=21&t=53139&start=50&hilit=ffmpeg+hdr

As long as people buy the HDR sets this is the very beginning of HDR technology in the home. Most TV's already have high resolution LED backlights and LED technology is growing by leaps and bounds each year.

There are currently high end consumer HDR displays that can top 2k nits at 60"+ This is only the 2nd year of consumer HDR. 4000 nits displayis rapidly approaching consumer hands.

Soon we will have consumer 4K capable displays, but no reference ones

Hello everyone,

I was wondering if there is something new on this topic?
Can we now deliver metadata like MaxFALL and MaxCLL with Davinci?
Thank you for your help!

You need:
-latest ffmpeg build with 10bit x265
-export 10bit uncompressed MOV (or ProResHQ or DNxHR HQX) from Resolve

fmpeg -i "source.mov" -pix_fmt yuv420p10le -c:v libx265 -preset slow -g 48 -b:v 100M -x265-params bframes=3:vbv-bufsize=150000:vbv-maxrate=150000:colorprim=bt2020:transfer=smpte-st-2084:colormatrix=bt2020nc:master-display="G(13250,34500)B(7500,3000)R(34000,16000)WP(15635,16450)L(10000000,500)":max-cll="1000,400" -c:a aac -b:a 320K "output.mp4"

This makes 100Mbit (with 150Mbit peak) h265 with:
- flags for P3 D65 white point
- mastering display luminance: min: 0.0500 cd/m2, max: 1000.0000 cd/m2
- MaxCLL=1000, MaxFALL=400 candela

Display primaries, white point are multiplied by 50000.

just adjust values per need (Netflix spec).

https://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/view ... ffmpeg+hdr

i have not had an dnxhr file exported with correct metadata (win10). Did you?

DNxHR export from Resolve won't have HDR metadata. This would need to be implemented by BM as private MOV (or MXF) headers. There is no standard for it. It's irrelevant for the transcoding stage as you specify it manually in the command.

After encoding metadata will exits in your final mp4 inside private h265 headers (which TVs/decoders can read if they are designed for it).

You can use Hybrid encoder to make HDR H.265 in 10bit with all HDR headers. I do so and clients like what they actually get.

Hybrid uses same x265 libraries and end result is the same. Maybe it's easier to use.

Yes, same libs but I like the GUI and the extra features oh Hybrid and it's cross platform. Good for us Mac guys.

I hope there will be a decent solution from BMD to this soon. I think on the Mac you can export to prores with metadata, but right now on win the only metadata export possible is qt uncompressed 10 bit. Thats cool for 5 sec tests but anything longer becomes a real problem. Especially when trying to upload to Youtube.

To be honest, I don't know if my Mac exports the right metadata, too.
Is there a way to check HDR-metadata?

On th eother hand it's so easy to check the HDR flag boxes in Hybrid, so why bother?

I hope there will be a decent solution from BMD to this soon. I think on the Mac you can export to prores with metadata, but right now on win the only metadata export possible is qt uncompressed 10 bit. Thats cool for 5 sec tests but anything longer becomes a real problem. Especially when trying to upload to Youtube.

I don't think this is true at all. How do you specify this metadata? Where Resolve is going to take it from (some can be taken form settings, but not all)? There is no such a functionality in Resolve regardless of OS.

To be honest, I don't know if my Mac exports the right metadata, too.
Is there a way to check HDR-metadata?

On th eother hand it's so easy to check the HDR flag boxes in Hybrid, so why bother?

Mediainfo will show HDR metadata very nicely if it's present in h265 stream.

Thank you Andrew.

Will it also work for ProRes444 or other suitable Resolve render codecs?

No, because Resolve will not include HDR metadata. Resolve is poor in this respect.
You can export ProRes,DNxHR in MOV and add it by yourself on MOV headers level (so it's there for future). It won't be auto recognised by any tool, but person can check it and re-type to the encoder etc. This is good as it says with file (no need for some email or other text, xml file next to master). Shame Resolve can't do it, yet it can do all other metadata related to the production. This should be requested as feature. Ability to include more technical metadata in MOV/MXF and place in Resolve to type it.

To be honest, I don't know if my Mac exports the right metadata, too.
Is there a way to check HDR-metadata?

On th eother hand it's so easy to check the HDR flag boxes in Hybrid, so why bother?

because you cant upload h265 to youtube, but you can with prores.

I hope there will be a decent solution from BMD to this soon. I think on the Mac you can export to prores with metadata, but right now on win the only metadata export possible is qt uncompressed 10 bit. Thats cool for 5 sec tests but anything longer becomes a real problem. Especially when trying to upload to Youtube.

I don't think this is true at all. How do you specify this metadata? Where Resolve is going to take it from (some can be taken form settings, but not all)? There is no such a functionality in Resolve regardless of OS.

yes, it is true. It's even in the manual I think. The metadata are only exported to specific file formats and when using Resolve Color Management. Ie. Set it up as bt 2020 st2048 in output color settings and your prores or uncompressed will have those metadata.

It's says on youtube manual that Resolve 12.5.2+ exports HDR masters which are automatically recognised by youtube.
Is this true? I have not seen any file from Resolve which would have all needed HDR info in MOV or MXF.
Can you post 1 sec HDR MOV sample please.

I hope there will be a decent solution from BMD to this soon. I think on the Mac you can export to prores with metadata, but right now on win the only metadata export possible is qt uncompressed 10 bit. Thats cool for 5 sec tests but anything longer becomes a real problem. Especially when trying to upload to Youtube.

I don't think this is true at all. How do you specify this metadata? Where Resolve is going to take it from (some can be taken form settings, but not all)? There is no such a functionality in Resolve regardless of OS.

yes, it is true. It's even in the manual I think. The metadata are only exported to specific file formats and when using Resolve Color Management. Ie. Set it up as bt 2020 st2048 in output color settings and your prores or uncompressed will have those metadata.

Yes, but this will be only:
Color primaries
Transfer characteristics
Matrix coefficients

this is basic info an not enough for precise flagging. You want all info which h265 supports.

[quote="Pepijn Klijs"]I hope there will be a decent solution from BMD to this soon. I think on the Mac you can export to prores with metadata, but right now on win the only metadata export possible is qt uncompressed 10 bit. Thats cool for 5 sec tests but anything longer becomes a real problem. Especially when trying to upload to Youtube.

I don't think this is true at all. How do you specify this metadata? Where Resolve is going to take it from (some can be taken form settings, but not all)? There is no such a functionality in Resolve regardless of OS.

yes, it is true. It's even in the manual I think. The metadata are only exported to specific file formats and when using Resolve Color Management. Ie. Set it up as bt 2020 st2048 in output color settings and your prores or uncompressed will have those metadata.

Yes, but this will be only:
Color primaries
Transfer characteristics
Matrix coefficients

this is basic info an not enough for precise flagging. You want all info which h265 supports.[/quote]its enough for youtube hdr.

You can be actually cheeky and use what Resolve already supports and have needed info simply as comment:



I just don't know how you fill and apply metadata in Resolve. Created custom metadata preset and what now?

So I added some metadata on Timeline level and exported this to MOV. Not a single part of this metadata is included in MOV headers, even standard things like Producer etc are not there. Why Resolve is so poor?
What is this metadata for- just to have it inside Resolve project?

its enough for youtube hdr.

Enough for youtube to recognise that stream is HDR- that's about it.
This flagging is not really Resolve exclusive, many tools can add Rec.2020 flagging.

Hi,

http://www.mysterybox.us/blog/2016/10/2 ... vering-hdr
http://www.mysterybox.us/blog/2016/11/7 ... with-a-lut

Hope this help.

It's great a guide for someone who is starting HDR grading, but it doesn't bring anything new to some questions here.
Resolve is poor with adding any metadata into MOV (or MXF), so you have to use 3rd party to do it.

Don't expect ProRes or DNxHR out of Resolve to have any mastering info. You have pass them in your chain as a separate note (email, txt, etc).

It's great a guide for someone who is starting HDR grading, but it doesn't bring anything new to some questions here.
Resolve is poor with adding any metadata into MOV (or MXF), so you have to use 3rd party to do it.

Don't expect ProRes or DNxHR out of Resolve to have any mastering info. You have pass them in your chain as a separate note (email, txt, etc).

I agree with Andrew, it would be really usefull if this is implemented in Resolve in the near future.

I'm really surprised that Resolve does not add any metadata into exported MOV masters, even standard MOV things like Producer, Comment, etc.
Or maybe it can, but I don't know how to do it.
For example in Scratch if you have e.g. Arri source and export ProRes, it will have all metadata as original file (including all camera settings etc).
Things like HDR metadata would be also cool thing as then they're embedded in the file, so no place for mistakes or need for chasing people about them.
For now this can be done, but as as separate process after exporting file from Resolve.

With a bit of an effort you could even standardize it a bit, so later things like Hybrid etc could read this data automatically and pass to your transcoded file.

Looks like Compressor 4.4 is appending correct HDR Metadata as checked by MediaInfo 17.12. And supports HEVC 10-bit output.

Seems strange that Resolve 14 can't attach HDR metadata yet.

Is it full metadata with mastering display info or just basic color primaries, transfer and matrix ?
Current Resolve does set those basic flags now for MOV container also, but this is just beginning. W need full headers and HEVC export.

Is it full metadata with mastering display info or just basic color primaries, transfer and matrix ?
Current Resolve does set those basic flags now for MOV container also, but this is just beginning. W need full headers and HEVC export.

Agreed!

Also it may be helpful to think about how to give instant MaxCLL and MaxFAL numbers during grading, perhaps as an add on to the scopes?

Hi,

I did not look too much but it might be possible to do a DCTL to search for the MAXFAL and MAXCLL and display it? it will be heavy but on some scenes well contrasted or bright?

Hybrid uses same x265 libraries and end result is the same. Maybe it's easier to use.

Slightly easier, yes. But only after you really dig into its many options, and build the right command syntax which you save as a preset. Then it is really easy to use, and indeed results are the same as with command line with ffmpeg/xlib265.

As to the importance of display device rating: it's not just a question of what - say - a Premium UHD TV manufacturer claims about a product being 1,000 nits or perhaps 1,400 nits capable; it's also a product quality itself. My Samsung is rated 1,000 nits (with up to 1,400 nits for 20% of the screen - sustained !!!) - and brightness-wise, maybe it does the job; unfortunately the color saturation in those brightest areas leaves a lot to be desired. When I have my (rated 1,500 nits), 7" Shogun Inferno connected simultaneously with my main, 49" KS8000 Samsung - the difference can be night and day, with the brightest parts of the sky still being blue on the Inferno, but a poor, washed -out, whitish "splash" on the Samsung! And this is a set which has been calibrated (that was long time ago, so I need to call Samsung engineers again). Of course, using the Lum vs. Sat curve can force some color into those areas - but firstly, being forced, it doesn't look too nice (especially with the problem in FS7 XAVC-I with too little information in bright, single-color areas of little details I described in another thread, which is the most pronounced in HDR grading of S-log footage), and secondly - when displayed on a better display (like the said Inferno (sic!!!)) - it will of course become locally over-saturated...

Also - with such a tiny display, it's much easier for the Inferno to deliver that 1,500 nits; and yet it gets so hot that 15 minutes into a grading session I usually turn it off for a couple of minutes so it can cool down, as I want it to live longer (after all, it's first and foremost my highest quality recording device!)...Can't even imagine the energy requirement of a proper, 4,000 nits UHD display of some 50" in size! I'm afraid - price tag aside - we will wait for a practical implementation of such device several years at least...

Piotr

25 amps or something like this for Dolby 4000nits TV. Unrealistic for home usage.

My Panasonic 58DX900 does a whopping 1300 nits with 8 huge fans going up quickly.

Crazy bright! And loud!

Tempting But here in Poland it's too expensive for me to justify replacing my less than 2 years old Samsung 49K8000.

I'll wait another 2 years I think, and only then will upgrade; the current set will replace my old 50"HD Panasonic plasma in the family room. The only problem is that the plasma is still in such a great condition, and offers such a great picture (albeit HD "only"), that I will probably hesitate to let it go Unless my Daughter already has her own flat by then, and the Plasma will make a fantastic present and get a chance for another period of useful life...

My current Samsung 49KS8000 hasn't got fans (or they are extremely quiet so I never hear them). And that's a pity, because the energy saving features cannot even be fully turned off (even with them disengaged, the screen dims considerably whenever I stop playback from Resolve in order to tweak my grading on a stationary scene. This works quite intelligently, but spoils my grading experience a lot. Have asked Samsung whether this can be turned off totally; they said yes we can do it - but it will void my warranty and the set will die sooner or later. So, as Andrew said - a long time till we see large UHD TV with more than 1,000-1,400 nits which is bright, quiet and with less intrusive ABL/APL...

Piotr

TV manufactures not only have to fight with technology limitations, but also with EU etc regulations. This is also a limiting factor for HDR TVs development.
Looks like current LED technology is not good enough to make 4000nits TVs. There is a need for some break through discovery.