Consumer 4k HDR OLED as grading monitor ?

I'm looking at purchasing a 55" OLED and having it Calibrated .


It supports p3 and Dolby vision and HDR 10 at a fantastic
Price and has gotten great reviews and is $2000 us online.

LG. OLED55B6P

My clientele is not as Critcal as ad agency or Studio work.

I'll also be adding a DLP consumer 4k projector once released,

And then later a small pro grading monitor to replace my PVM20L5.

My understanding is that the LG G6 and E6 are better overall OLED monitors:

http://www.lg.com/us/tvs/lg-OLED65G6P-o ... led_pmt_e_

In general, you get what you pay for. The real issue is finding a way to calibrate these monitors; HDTVTest went into detail on what they found with the LG G6 series, and it was largely positive:

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/oled65g6 ... 014268.htm

Note that none of these are what I would call Grade 1 grading monitors. They're OK for client monitors and for casual use. Real broadcast grading monitors, like the Sony BVM series, the Canon DP series, and the Dolby Pulsar, Eclipse, and Maui displays, cost significantly more money (as much as 10 times more costly). Projectors are higher still, particularly when you get into HDR.

OLEDs still don't calibrate that well as LCD, specially Panasonic, but as "wow" factor they will make better impression on clients You want better series as uniformity is a bit of problem with consumer OLED (which is also case for LCDs).

We've outfitted our color suite, audio rooms and a couple edit sites with EF9500s and they calibrate closer than any monitor in house. The 20 point gray-scale adjustment is the key. They are plenty bright, although we will be getting a G6P for the higher NITS output for HDR in our color suite soon, although 65" is pretty big for the room currently. Black levels and response times are better than LCDs... We rely on the LGs and they are very consistent. We outfitted the audio rooms with identical monitors so calibration is the same for our clients when they watch down audio mixes. Only thing we had to worry about was the delay, but ProTools handles that internally.

Sent from my LG G4 using Tapatalk.

Thanks for the info Joe.

How often do they drift and need realignment?

Watch out for image burn in. Especially with letterbox...

Watch out for image burn in. Especially with letterbox...

And especially with HDR.

I am waiting for Spectracal to support AutoCal on the LG monitors. I can get very good calibration results on my Panasonic VT60 using it. Totally automatic using VirtualForge through the Decklink:

Panasonic VT60 Calman report.jpg (717.08 KiB) Viewed 9710 times

Watch out for image burn in. Especially with letterbox...

And especially with HDR.

In your experience, which is the "method" to avoid burn-in when grading specifically HDR with letterbox?

Watch out for image burn in. Especially with letterbox...

And especially with HDR.

^This.

For that reason, when I was starting my "HDR10 adventure" with Resolve over 2.5 years ago, I deliberately selected LCD (the "Quantum Dot" UHD+ set from Samsung). OLED burn-in is real ; I had experienced it earlier with my otherwise great Zacuto Gratical EVF, so - even though the wow factor can be stronger with OLED TVs - I preferred to avoid constantly worrying about the potential burn-in problems. My Samsung (as most of them) is an edge-lit LCD panel, so the quality of local super-brights does leave a little to be desired - but at least I can leave a stationary image on the screen for prolonged periods when needed (like e.g. pixel-peeping type of grade fine tuning)...

Piotr

How do you get a burn in with OLED when your highlights are probably in different places between shots?
A FALD QLED (Samsung) or triluminous (Sony) TV would be a good choice, why use edge lit?

Sent from my GM 5 Plus d using Tapatalk

How do you get a burn in with OLED when your highlights are probably in different places between shots?
A FALD QLED (Samsung) or triluminous (Sony) TV would be a good choice, why use edge lit?

Sent from my GM 5 Plus d using Tapatalk

Almost 3 years ago the choice was limited.

Piotr

I have lg 55b7 2 years now, and I have no burn in... Image is perfect!

Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk

I have lg 55b7 2 years now, and I have no burn in... Image is perfect!

John, your reply is my only hope! Tell me: you use your OLED simply to see/show the "final result" of your grading, or you use it constantly to grade your work (i.e. working on a still frame for long time making a mask or something similar)?

How do you get a burn in with OLED when your highlights are probably in different places between shots?

That's right, but when I grade a shot I remain on a still frame sometimes for hours... This is my main doubt!

A FALD QLED (Samsung) or triluminous (Sony) TV would be a good choice

Please, tell me: on which one you'd honestly go as OLED replacement?
-Samsung QLED Q90R 55" (2700);
-...or simply remaining with Panasonic FZ800 55" (1500)?

None?

None?

Hi Adriano,

For the reason both you and I mentioned in this thread (necessity to display a single frame while grading for more or less prolonged periods of time) - I'd avoid OLED as my grading monitor. It's certainly great for watching your final product, but not as the broadcast monitor in Resolve (or any other NLE).

OLED burn-in is a real thing, as I learnt the hard way with my Zacuto Gratical EVF!

Piotr

You can't compare Zacuto EVF with OLED TV. TVs have ways of preventing burn-in where Zacuto most likely not.
Not good reference point.
Try googling and finding real cases of OLEDs burn-in. Some torture test:
https://www.rtings.com/tv/learn/real-li ... rn-in-test

It can be a problem for sure. It's all about finding how big problem in grading case and if it can be avoided.

You can't compare Zacuto EVF with OLED TV. TVs have ways of preventing burn-in where Zacuto most likely not.
Not good reference point.
Try googling and finding real cases of OLEDs burn-in. Some torture test:
https://www.rtings.com/tv/learn/real-li ... rn-in-test

It can be a problem for sure. It's all about finding how big problem in grading case and if it can be avoided.

Andrzej,

I'm not comparing a say 55" TV panel with the smallish EVF one; just providing a first-hand experience proving the OLED burn-in is not an urban legend (and yes, Zacuto Gratical moves the image constantly by a few pixels in random direction to protect the screen, and yet I had to switch any OSD completely off as I started to see its ghosts after just a couple of shooting days).

Piotr

So big problem for your Zacuto then

Funny how Sony BVM x300 OLED seems to be actually recommended as suitable for grading HDR? Perhaps there is something in the manual that warns not to have a single frame on screen for hours Perhaps there is something in the fact it don't use an LG panel?

I don't work with an external monitor so do not know all the options, but perhaps there is an easy way to activate and deactivate the monitoring while working on masking and such?

I'm very suspectful of big VA screens (or even small ones viewed close by) in terms of judging colors/gamma, especially on parts of screen moving away from centre towards the edge of the screen and especially when pixels are so brighly lit as in HDR...and there are no good FALD IPS TVs....Samsungs hi-end QLEDs do seem to have the best viewing angles of all the VA variants, but best is not the same as prefect, I suppose

Just like

Samsungs hi-end QLEDs do seem to have the best viewing angles of all the VA variants, but best is not the same as prefect, I suppose

-suitable is not necessarily perfect

Funny how Sony BVM x300 OLED seems to be actually recommended as suitable for grading HDR?

Piotr

PS. That said, being prone to burn-in or not isn't the only quality indicator - hence the Sony BVM x300 is a de facto standard for quality broadcast monitor. Also, please remember about the price factor; for the price of the Sony BV x300 I could probably upgrade my TVs several times, and the last one (which doesn't yet exist) would certainly have better parameters than the current Sony... We're living in interesting time, when prosumer (or even premium consumer) devices are often more "hi-tech" than professional ones. I dare say that if a modern, Premium+ UHD TV is easily and reliably calibratable it will always present a better value than the small (in size and resolution) Sony x300....

BVM X300 is not necessarily your best choice as for now. It was, but there are new TVs based on newer panels and Sony also has it as a new choice.

Funny how Sony BVM x300 OLED seems to be actually recommended as suitable for grading HDR? Perhaps there is something in the manual that warns not to have a single frame on screen for hours Perhaps there is something in the fact it don't use an LG panel?

As far as I know doesn't use LG panel. It's definitely not RGBW panel, but proper RGB one, which was developed by Sony ( which had many problems creating it). This is why there is still no bigger on newer model (and maybe never will be).

FALD is not the best technology for reference TVs (this famous halo effect on 1st Dolby monitor). Your best option now is new Panasonic panel with independent backlight for "every" pixel. Sony, Eizo, Flanders- they all use it in their new models (as far as I can tell). It represent probably the best technology atm. (or maybe Sony made own panel of this type- not sure).

Your best option now is new Panasonic panel with independent backlight for every pixel.

Do you mean GZ2000? Or even GZ1500/1000/950? (But they will have same burn-in issue of FZ800, right? That thing doesn't change, right?)

No- there is no consumer product based on it (it's also LCD panel not OLED). It's uses in Eizo and Flanders (which cost 20K+) and most likely in Sony BVM-HX310.

No- there is no consumer product based on it (it's also LCD panel not OLED). It's uses in Eizo and Flanders (which cost 20K+) and most likely in Sony BVM-HX310.

Yep, Panasonic display division switched to "industrial use" displays only AFAIK...however, there are traces of per-pixel dimming on their current consumer models i.e, they darken the pixel digitally according to an algorithm to compensate for the backlight spillage, perhaps they can improve upon this to become sufficiently precise for grading use, but these will still be edge lit (hopefully with more zones) since they scraped the Direct FALD backlight strategy (they just do OLED instead).

And what do you think about new MicroLED technology by Samsung? Could be something to grade with? Or at least good as OLED?

And what do you think about new MicroLED technology by Samsung? Could be something to grade with? Or at least good as OLED?

It shows promise but I haven't yet seen any real hands on a review of the current prototype, but if you have enough money and a grading suite large enough that's how it will stay for a long time ...and it will be a long time before they bring the prices, manufacture cost and screen sizes down to "our" level....

Ok, please let's simplify the title of this thread (thanks to the OP): Consumer 4K HDR tv as grading monitor.
Then which one?
-Consumer OLED is good but has burn-in issue;
-QLED (new) is not-as-good-as-OLED, but without burn-in issue.
If we consider only consumer range, and you can afford only one preview monitor for years, on which model would you invest your money?

I have to weigh in on this, the Sony BVM-300 has the distinction of being one of the select few Dolby recommended models, which should cause you to consider what that workflow was; a multi-monitor setup where the HDR grading was shown but fixed graphics would be on another monitor. You only used the BVM-300 to view the graded image which means it probably was not expected to park statically for long periods. Another reason it and other mastering monitors are recommended is because it uses industry standard SDI BNC connectors.

I agree with Piotr, not an urban legend, image retention is a potential problem with OLED, this is clearly a theme of Rtings testing where they do not exonerate the class. In my usage case, I know that image retention would be a *certainty.* There is no way I would consider one. For others, you proceed at your own risk, and you own that risk.

I have to weigh in on this, the Sony BVM-300 has the distinction of being one of the select few Dolby recommended models...

Note that the BVM-X300 has been discontinued, and the new one is the BVM-X310 LCD. There are rumors that replacement OLED panels are in short supply.

I agree with Piotr, not an urban legend, image retention is a potential problem with OLED, this is clearly a theme of Rtings testing where they do not exonerate the class. In my usage case, I know that image retention would be a *certainty.* There is no way I would consider one. For others, you proceed at your own risk, and you own that risk.

I disagree, and we've been using the LG OLEDs at our facility for 2 years. No issues. On any projects where we're doing (say) a lot of 2.39 letterbox, we'll leave the display up with full-screen gray for half an hour at the end of the day. I haven't seen any image retention issues. Note that we're driving the set very low because it's only at 100 nits, so we're on the low end of available brightness range.

Here's a shot of 24 OLEDs getting unboxed in the engineering room at Technicolor Hollywood.



If they're good enough for Tech, they're good enough for us. The key is to have them calibrated by somebody who really knows what they're doing, and that's trickier than you might think.

And for 20 of those there will be just two Sony BVM
I think if you will "care" of your panel there should be no real issue with burn-in. Is noise not better than static grey? That's what we use to do with our Kuro plasmas.

It's BVM-HX310, which is most likely based on the same Panasonic panel which is used in Flanders and Eizo Prominence (and some others probably). Everyone jumped to this Panasonic new panel.

I have to weigh in on this, the Sony BVM-300 has the distinction of being one of the select few Dolby recommended models...

Note that the BVM-X300 has been discontinued, and the new one is the BVM-X310 LCD. There are rumors that replacement OLED panels are in short supply.

I agree with Piotr, not an urban legend, image retention is a potential problem with OLED, this is clearly a theme of Rtings testing where they do not exonerate the class. In my usage case, I know that image retention would be a *certainty.* There is no way I would consider one. For others, you proceed at your own risk, and you own that risk.

I disagree, and we've been using the LG OLEDs at our facility for 2 years. No issues. On any projects where we're doing (say) a lot of 2.39 letterbox, we'll leave the display up with full-screen gray for half an hour at the end of the day. I haven't seen any image retention issues. Note that we're driving the set very low because it's only at 100 nits, so we're on the low end of available brightness range.

Here's a shot of 24 OLEDs getting unboxed in the engineering room at Technicolor Hollywood.



If they're good enough for Tech, they're good enough for us. The key is to have them calibrated by somebody who really knows what they're doing, and that's trickier than you might think.

Very cool. Which consumer OLED TV would you recommend highest as grading budget screen currently? What type of calibration do you have in mind? Any particular system or vendor? What are the pitfalls you are implying? Thanks!

Last Panasonic plasmas had an integrated sideways-scrolling white bar to clean up retention...sadly it's no help with burn in...

Would an inverse (negative) of the letterbox at the end of the day help prevent the difference in pixel wear that burn-in actually is.

we'll leave the display up with full-screen gray for half an hour at the end of the day.

Is noise not better than static grey? That's what we use to do with our Kuro plasmas.

Would an inverse (negative) of the letterbox at the end of the day help prevent the difference in pixel wear that burn-in actually is.

Super-cool solutions guys! Grey vs Noise (vs Anti-letterbox). Please, elaborate just a little bit more: it could be very useful to understand which method could give the best result.

Please, elaborate just a little bit more: it could be very useful to understand which method could give the best result.

It will be helpful to understand which solution is best for the problem that does not exist!

Very cool. Which consumer OLED TV would you recommend highest as grading budget screen currently? What type of calibration do you have in mind? Any particular system or vendor? What are the pitfalls you are implying? Thanks!

I'm a fan of the LG 55OLEDC8, which is what we're using at the moment. It's by no means a BVM-X310, but it's also 55", which is good for clients, and I think it gets more than 95% there for Rec709 for a fraction of the budget (about $2K). For true HDR (and Dolby Vision) mastering, you'd have to get something much, much higher-end, like one of the Netflix-approved Grade-1 mastering displays. Sony BVM and the higher-end FSI HDM displays are fantastic. The jury is still out on comparable displays from Canon and Boland (and there may well be more introduced at NAB in 10 days).

Cost no object, I'd absolutely buy a BVM-X310, and then have an LG off to the side for the clients (which is how a lot of LA post houses are running these days). There are always pros and cons to having two displays in the room, and the danger is the client will ask, "which one am I supposed to believe?"

Our calibration engineer uses a combination of both Light Illusion and Calman calibration, and we trust his judgement in coming up with a workable solution.

Super-cool solutions guys! Grey vs Noise (vs Anti-letterbox). Please, elaborate just a little bit more: it could be very useful to understand which method could give the best result.

I don't think the problem is worth worrying about, provided you don't stop on an image with a black room and a super-bright lightbulb in it and sit on the image for 3 hours. I do know of a case where a BVM-X300 was destroyed because a colorist had left it looking at a file server and left the building, and somebody else took control of the server and sat on a slate for a few hours. They couldn't get rid of the burned-in slate, so the display was effectively toasted.

I don't think the problem is worth worrying about, provided you don't stop on an image with a black room and a super-bright lightbulb in it and sit on the image for 3 hours.

Well, your advice of leaving the display up with full-screen gray for half an hour is good! Just to know: which gray? Middle gray?

I'm a fan of the LG 55OLEDC8.

Thanks Marc. Highly value your opinion and experience. Decided and ordered the LG55 C8.

I have my lg as a video output via decklink.
I choose isf 1, dark room preset, and I have no problem as I said.

Many professionals here in Greece does the same thing, it's relatively cheap... I bought it around 1500 euros.

You can't go wrong with this TV, or any other like Panasonic oled...

Sent from my SM-T830 using Tapatalk

You can't go wrong with this TV, or any other like Panasonic oled...

FZ800 is in my studio now, mounted on a N5 painted "so serious" wall

Well, your advice of leaving the display up with full-screen gray for half an hour is good! Just to know: which gray? Middle gray?

Yeah, 50 ire gray (roughly 50%). I actually got that idea from Warren Eagles, who points out that when you work long sessions, it's nice to be reminded of what a truly "neutral" image looks like. I think it's good to avoid eye fatigue as well.

I choose isf 1, dark room preset, and I have no problem as I said.

Yes, our calibration engineer starts with ISF Night for the LG OLED C8 for Rec709 and then proceeds from there.

Anyone know the difference between the LG OLED C8 and C7C?

Anyone know the difference between the LG OLED C8 and C7C?

The C8 is the 2018 model. I would definitely go with the C8 because, unlike the C7, it can store a 33x33x33 LUT internally.