Export issues (again, I know)

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waltervolpatto

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Re: Export issues (again, I know)

PostMon Jul 31, 2017 2:40 am

A mini monitor is 150$. One HDMI cable and a semi - calibrated consumer monitor.

We are not talking about thousand of dollars...

I'm for external monitoring
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Dax Roggio

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Re: Export issues (again, I know)

PostMon Jul 31, 2017 3:13 am

Thank you, Dylan, for sharing your workflow. It's the only advice that addresses the actual problem. Calibration and external monitors should have nothing to do with it.

We're talking about seeing your graded video in Resolve on your Mac display and having no way to export it and look identical...on the same Mac display! If your computer display calibration is completely haywire, that's irrelevant to this particular discussion. It will just be haywire in exactly the same way when played from the exported file.

If the final output is a QuickTime movie that will be uploaded to Vimeo or YouTube, it's illogical that a DeckLink and calibrated monitor should be of much use, let alone necessary. That's like using a camera to take a picture of an image on your display and then color correcting the result to match as best you can...instead of just saving a copy of the image file.

The argument seems to be that Resolve is intended only for broadcast television or theatrical presentation. That's its heritage, to be sure, but I find it very unlikely that Blackmagic isn't interested in attracting editors and colorists who publish on the web occasionally, if not always. Blackmagic is clearly trying to compete as a full-fledged, versatile NLE against the established NLEs, none of which have this problem. And whether low budget or high, more ads (more everything) play on the web now than on TV.

To be clear, I'm not contradicting that a DeckLink card and calibrated monitor are and will continue to be an important investment for many workflows, but I agree with Dylan and others that this is a baffling shortcoming.
No, you probably don’t need a calibrated, non-computer display.
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Marc Wielage

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Re: Export issues (again, I know)

PostMon Jul 31, 2017 4:10 am

Dax Roggio wrote:If the final output is a QuickTime movie that will be uploaded to Vimeo or YouTube, it's illogical that a DeckLink and calibrated monitor should be of much use, let alone necessary. That's like using a camera to take a picture of an image on your display and then color correcting the result to match as best you can...instead of just saving a copy of the image file.

If you play a file outside Resolve, you see the effects of what the operating system and playback engine are doing to the image.

If you play the image inside Resolve, you see how Resolve plays back the image.

I can play an image in QuickTime, in VLC, and on the web at the same time on the same monitor, and all three are different. Which is right? Which is wrong? There's a chance they're ALL wrong. Without a calibrated workflow, you have no idea what's real.

Using scopes will tell you very quickly if a real problem exists. Trying to avoid that is the way of madness.
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Dylan Neild

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Re: Export issues (again, I know)

PostMon Jul 31, 2017 5:25 am

Marc Wielage wrote:If you play the image inside Resolve, you see how Resolve plays back the image.

I can play an image in QuickTime, in VLC, and on the web at the same time on the same monitor, and all three are different. Which is right? Which is wrong? There's a chance they're ALL wrong. Without a calibrated workflow, you have no idea what's real.

Using scopes will tell you very quickly if a real problem exists. Trying to avoid that is the way of madness.


It seems like maybe we're all trying to solve two different problems here.

If what you're saying is the solution to this particular problem, it should be in no way be true that I can make Quicktime look exactly like Resolve by simply ensuring that Quicktime interprets my rendered footage correctly. I'm not applying any LUTs or doing anything other than adding an sRGB atom to my MOV file and now Quicktime is perfect (and therefore Vimeo is too).

If calibration and monitoring is the problem, how am I now able to make Resolve and Quicktime look identical on the same display like this?

Before fixing the MOV atom's and/or forcibly interpreting the colour space in Apple Compressor the difference between Resolve and Quicktime was immediate and obvious - total shift upwards in gamma that was unusable.

I'm not asking rhetorically... I'm truly interested. This very much doesn't feel like a monitoring problem given how relatively easy it is to solve.

Resolve:
resolve.jpg
Image in Resolve Viewer
resolve.jpg (193.33 KiB) Viewed 2664 times


Quicktime:
quicktime.jpg
quicktime.jpg (168.03 KiB) Viewed 2664 times
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Cary Knoop

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Re: Export issues (again, I know)

PostMon Jul 31, 2017 5:43 am

Dax Roggio wrote:We're talking about seeing your graded video in Resolve on your Mac display and having no way to export it and look identical...on the same Mac display! If your computer display calibration is completely haywire, that's irrelevant to this particular discussion. It will just be haywire in exactly the same way when played from the exported file.

Not necessarily and especially not so if the display is somehow OS or GPU color managed.

Only by using a dedicated video card using SDI to a calibrated monitor you have an absolute visual reference, in addition scopes (unless transformed by a LUT in Resolve) give an absolute numerical reference.
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Re: Export issues (again, I know)

PostMon Jul 31, 2017 1:39 pm

Cary Knoop wrote:
Dax Roggio wrote:We're talking about seeing your graded video in Resolve on your Mac display and having no way to export it and look identical...on the same Mac display! If your computer display calibration is completely haywire, that's irrelevant to this particular discussion. It will just be haywire in exactly the same way when played from the exported file.

Not necessarily and especially not so if the display is somehow OS or GPU color managed.

Only by using a dedicated video card using SDI to a calibrated monitor you have an absolute visual reference, in addition scopes (unless transformed by a LUT in Resolve) give an absolute numerical reference.


That's fair. However, my experience with Premiere Pro, FCP 7, and FCP X is WYSIWYG. If Adobe can make it work in their rather buggy cross-platform NLE, I'm sure Blackmagic could, even if it's just an optional setting to color manage in that fashion.
No, you probably don’t need a calibrated, non-computer display.
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Paul Willis

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Re: Export issues (again, I know)

PostMon Jul 31, 2017 4:26 pm

Resolve of course has many colour management options and workflow options, NLE's don't. There are many more ways you can screw it up because it's designed to deliver many different formats and integrate into many different workflows. Your output is exactly what you see in Resolve, provided you understand your workflow and view it correctly (as everyone has said already...)

That said, for a simple ProRes 422 workflow, monitoring only on the GUI if I have to, my export is exactly what I see in Resolve provided I use VLC to watch it back and never Quicktime :evil: . If you're all trying crazy workflows to make quicktime happy, you're breaking your video for everything else. Just ignore quicktime! What's the point in trying to fix quicktime?

If you're using 'use mac display color profile for viewers' on a GUI display only setup and are only delivering for web, your viewer will NOT match your output on quicktime, VLC.
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Dylan Neild

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Re: Export issues (again, I know)

PostMon Jul 31, 2017 6:11 pm

Right now I can render out of Resolve and have Resolve == Quicktime == VLC == Vimeo (per my post above) by adding in the missing QT ATOM's that Resolve doesn't put in it's files (but FCP and Premier do) or by using a compressor tool (I'm using Apple Compressor) that supports manual override of the input colour space.

Seems this is very much a metadata issue, not a monitoring or playback issue. I'm personally more than content that this is a solved problem for GUI display only work for web output.

And again: the Resolve manual very much explains how all of this is possible and supported - it's just not very well written and doesn't, of course, deal with the notion of integrating QuickTime based applications into your pipeline. But, as far as I can tell,, Resolve on a display-integrated Mac with ColorSync colour management should (and does) work fine if you're working in sRGB and recognize your render files aren't QuickTime compatible out of the box.
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Dax Roggio

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Re: Export issues (again, I know)

PostMon Jul 31, 2017 6:51 pm

Well, I figured I should run some new tests (having already chimed in, of course 8-) ). Truth be told, I'm not seeing the marked difference between the Resolve viewers and QuickTime exports that I encountered many times previously (same projects/source footage).

I did play with some settings in the interim and updated to 12.5.1. And I'm sure there has been at least one macOS point update in that period (which may very well have included an update to the OpenGL driver). With so many variables, it's hard to say what has reduced the discrepancy so greatly. I'm starting a project this week that was shot in ProRes on a BlackMagic Cinema Camera. So that should be right in Resolve's wheelhouse. I hope so, because I love cutting and color correcting within Resolve — and I've dumped Adobe CC. :D

I would just add that my most commonly requested delivery format is ProRes, as I'm sure it is for many of you, and clients often view that final product in QuickTime Player simply because it is the default.
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Dylan Neild

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Re: Export issues (again, I know)

PostMon Jul 31, 2017 9:46 pm

Interestingly, having just tested:

Resolve 14 Beta seems to fix the issue where the correct QT colour space atoms aren't being added to Resolve rendered files.

After a quick test, if you have "Use Mac Display Color Profile for Viewers" enabled and sRGB set for your timeline, the rendered ProRes file looks identical between what's in Resolve and what's in Quicktime without any manual correction of the rendered files (adding the necessary quicktime atom).

You can then compress to H.264 / convert to Rec709 using Apple Compressor with good effect when uploading to Vimeo.

Also of note, VLC seems to be never correct on High Sierra (Beta 4). It's not correct compared to Resolve without "Mac Display Color" and it's not correct to Resolve with it, nor is it correct to any rendered Resolve files. So go figure on that front.
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Dax Roggio

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Re: Export issues (again, I know)

PostMon Jul 31, 2017 11:25 pm

Dylan Neild wrote:Resolve 14 Beta seems to fix the issue where the correct QT colour space atoms aren't being added to Resolve rendered files.


Nice! Blackmagic continues to knock items off my list of gripes at a remarkable pace.
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Dax Roggio

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Re: Export issues (again, I know)

PostWed Mar 14, 2018 4:55 pm

As I have now had more time to experiment with settings on my newish system, I'll post what is working for me when recording Rec. 709. My exports to QuickTime (both ProRes and H.264) look exactly the same as they do in the Resolve viewers (before or after grading). I'm working on a 2017 5K iMac (with the default “iMac” color profile/DCI P3 color gamut).

Preferences > System > Hardware Configuration > Use Mac Display Color Profiles for Viewers: Checked

Project Settings > Color Management > Color science: DaVinci YRBG Color Managed
Project Settings > Color Management > Input Color Space: sRGB
Project Settings > Color Management > Timeline Color Space: sRGB
Project Settings > Color Management > Output Color Space: sRGB

The surprise here for me is that no combination of the Rec. 709 project settings produces the same result of perfectly consistent color and gamma between Resolve’s viewers and QuickTime. Also, interestingly, these settings work pretty well for S-Log2, with only a slight shift in gamma, better than actually setting anything for S-gamut/S-Log2.
No, you probably don’t need a calibrated, non-computer display.
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Cary Knoop

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Re: Export issues (again, I know)

PostWed Mar 14, 2018 7:57 pm

If you use RCM with identical Input, Timeline and Output settings it effectively means you have no color management at all.

With respect to sRGB, I would avoid BlackMagic's interpretation of sRGB. The graph below compares sRGB and Rec709@2.2 against Rec709@2.4:

Gamma-straight.jpg
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Dax Roggio

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Re: Export issues (again, I know)

PostThu Mar 15, 2018 12:13 am

Cary Knoop wrote:If you use RCM with identical Input, Timeline and Output settings it effectively means you have no color management at all.


I’m sure you’re right, but it works, whereas actually turning off color management does not prevent the discrepancy between the viewers and QuickTime, which was the OP’s issue. Before discovering the sRGB workaround (based on the OP’s later comments in this thread), I would occasionally even import my final ProRes into FCP X, where I could make final adjustments while viewing what the actual exported QuickTime movie would look like. As I said, I was not able to accomplish that with any of the Rec. 709 settings in Resolve. (Of course I found it somewhat ironic to be editing in Resolve and finishing in FCP X.)

This seems to keep coming back to QuickTime being “wrong” and sRGB being related to but not identical to Rec. 709. I don’t doubt any of that, but if my client is going to be reviewing a QuickTime H.264 or ProRes file, as is often the case, that’s what I want to see in Resolve too (and am used to seeing in Premiere Pro and FCP X, neither of which hold a candle to Resolve IMO in most respects). For broadcast, I use a different workflow.
No, you probably don’t need a calibrated, non-computer display.
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Re: Export issues (again, I know)

PostFri Sep 20, 2019 9:41 am

After not finding the answer .... I did what Dee Dee would do :D (dexter sister :ugeek: from dexter laboratory, cartoon) " Ooooh what this button do?!"

Go to Preferences -> General -> activate "use Mac Display Color Profiles for Viewers.

It helped me ;)
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Re: Export issues (again, I know)

PostFri Sep 20, 2019 5:08 pm

On more time- it's not really Resolve issue, but also QT X (and more precisely outdated flagging system used by Apple).
It's all explained here:
viewtopic.php?f=21&t=95658&p=530897&hilit=baselight#p530897

When you use sRGB then Resolve preview will look 100% the same as QT X (both apps will use same math for managing preview). Issue is with Rec.709 and 2.4 or 2.2 gamma as there are no real standards for it (specially in Apple color manage engine).
Fix needs to come from Apple- they need to include proper tagging (rec.709 with 2.4 and 2.2 gamma) into their color engine and then all will be good (if all app manufactures will also properly read and write tagging).

Interestingly latest Resolve 16.1 beta does set all headers correctly now for 2.4 gamma based projects. It follows Baselight and uses custom flagging with gamma tag. Preview matches QT X (there is some difference which is hard to explain as it use to match 100% and sRGB matches 100%). Shame Resolve doesn't keep proper flagging for 2.2 based gamma :) Problem is that such a tagging is properly handled just by few apps out there and it will be lost when files are put through transcoding chains. We need new standardised flagging for 2.4 based gamma. Also-fact that you will have calibrated preview to 30K monitor will solve nothing in regards to later playback in QT X etc. (well- it does guarantee you that video is correct when correctly previewed).
Big studios have exactly same problem. So often client complains that video looks bad watched on Vimeo on his Mac. It ends up taking client and showing him same video on Dolby monitor, but then he says- I don't care. There were even cases when videos were re-graded and we talking about big budget projects (not holiday videos). We know theory, but what looks correct in theory is not always what client wants. You are not alone- it's bigger problem and fact that Apple and others (this includes BM etc.) cannot for 10 years sort out few headers in rendered video doesn't really help. Is it really that difficult to agree on new flag for Rec.709 2.4 gamma, which at least all decent apps will read/set/process properly? It took Baselight people few years to actually figure out that whole Rec.709 tagging is wrong? BM seems to be even not aware of it. Industry really needs to be more "active" and don't count just on SMPTE which doesn't really fit well into current reality. Shame these big companies don't really talk to each other as whole problem could be sorted within a month (same was with Nvidia which needed years to be able to handle Rec.709 vs. Rec.601 properly- bit of a joke to be honest).

It's plain simple- file needs to be tagged with format which it was graded to: Rec.709 2.4, Rec.709 2.2, Rec.2020 2.4, REc.2020 PQ etc. If later there is a color management engine it has to have correct values to be based on, as otherwise you get mess as we have now. Files graded with different parameters, yet all flagged in one way Rec.709 (1-1-1). Add fact that Apple color engine assumes Rec.709 files was graded with 1.96 gamma, where no one grades to this value ever (due to famous fact of non-existing for many years standard for HD monitoring)! We still have mess in new formats as well- some predefined values exist, but somehow they don't really apply to reality. People grade to something which can't be properly described using standardised headers. It's like we had standards done on Mars by aliens, but grading on Earth :D

BM please fix flagging for 2.2 gamma. From current 1-4-1 +2.2 gamma tag it needs to change to 1-2-1 +2.2 gamma tag. Apple's color engine doesn't understand 1-4-1. In order for 2.2 info to be taken into account flagging needs to be set to 1-2-1.
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Export issues (again, I know)

PostFri Sep 20, 2019 6:04 pm

Dylan Neild wrote:
Marc Wielage wrote:If you play the image inside Resolve, you see how Resolve plays back the image.

I can play an image in QuickTime, in VLC, and on the web at the same time on the same monitor, and all three are different. Which is right? Which is wrong? There's a chance they're ALL wrong. Without a calibrated workflow, you have no idea what's real.

Using scopes will tell you very quickly if a real problem exists. Trying to avoid that is the way of madness.


It seems like maybe we're all trying to solve two different problems here.

If what you're saying is the solution to this particular problem, it should be in no way be true that I can make Quicktime look exactly like Resolve by simply ensuring that Quicktime interprets my rendered footage correctly. I'm not applying any LUTs or doing anything other than adding an sRGB atom to my MOV file and now Quicktime is perfect (and therefore Vimeo is too).

If calibration and monitoring is the problem, how am I now able to make Resolve and Quicktime look identical on the same display like this?

Before fixing the MOV atom's and/or forcibly interpreting the colour space in Apple Compressor the difference between Resolve and Quicktime was immediate and obvious - total shift upwards in gamma that was unusable.

I'm not asking rhetorically... I'm truly interested. This very much doesn't feel like a monitoring problem given how relatively easy it is to solve.


There are 2 problems here- 1 is related to fact if your monitor is Rec.709 calibrated to specific gamma and another is actual preview between different apps. As you found out 2nd issue is all about tagging and how different apps interpret it. 1st issue is very different matter- you simply need to calibrate your screen. In order to have "perfect" viewing system both issues needs to be solved.
Watch Baselight video which explains why QT X preview for Rec.709 tagged (Rec.709 +2.4 gamma graded) files is wrong.
If your sRGB tagged file will survive whole transcoding chain (still be tagged as sRGB) and hit Apple browser then they should look identical as in Resolve. Unfortunately this is not the case for custom tagging for Rec.709+2.4 gamma. This will be overwritten by most likely standard Rec.709 flagging (1-1-1) and cause preview to be very different.

Side note- with Mac P3 screen it's enough to calibrate them to eg. P3 D65 with 2.4 gamma. Then this will allow you to grade to P3 2.4 gamma as well as Rec.709 2.4 thanks to color engine, which will properly convert it to smaller gamut. I assume different gammas can be also achieved. This is not ideal scenario (you should have preset in the screen for different calibrations), but as for non high-end grading it should be good enough. Of course when your screen can't even hit Rec.709 gamut then it's useless for any work.
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Export issues (again, I know)

PostFri Sep 20, 2019 6:50 pm

Looks like there is a bug in Resolve 16.1 b3.
QT X preview won't match Resolve 2.4 gamma exports (even if tagging is correct and it should), but such a rendered file will 100% match 2.2 gamma based project. There is clearly an issue (using different color space but 2.4 gamma also shows the same issue).
2.2 gamma or even 2.6 (after proper re-tagging) or sRGB based projects are fine.
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