Pushing Resolve out of 709...

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Charles Boileau

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Pushing Resolve out of 709...

PostMon Sep 19, 2016 10:20 pm

Hi to all,

We recently got a new Christie projector. We initially thought that we could grade like we did before and just "push" our way into the our new found colorspace.

What we found is that it didn't seem as straight forward as we thought. Using the tools we've always used before, it was hard for us to push the image out of the 709 gamut. The only way we found that worked properly was with ACEScc. But that's almost like learning how to grade again (or close to).

Is there anything we need to do in Resolve to extend the gamut to P3 (and please don't suggest using RCM)? Is there a setting somewhere? A technique we'd need to adopt?

Thank you very much for all the help!

Merci!
Charles Boileau
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www.post-moderne.com
Montreal, Québec
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Smash Ashby

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Re: Pushing Resolve out of 709...

PostTue Sep 20, 2016 6:47 am

Hi Charles,

In your project settings, under Colour Management, have you set your Timeline Colour Space to P3-DCI?
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Peter Chamberlain

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Re: Pushing Resolve out of 709...

PostTue Sep 20, 2016 7:58 am

Why not RCM? It's designed for this. Set the timeline to P3 or 2020 and the output to P3.
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Charles Boileau

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Re: Pushing Resolve out of 709...

PostTue Sep 20, 2016 12:56 pm

RCM looks awful... Would the timeline setting really affect the way the colors behave even when not using the full RCM workflow?

Thanks!
Charles Boileau
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Charles Boileau

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Re: Pushing Resolve out of 709...

PostTue Sep 20, 2016 1:09 pm

FYI looks awful when you add an input profile.
Charles Boileau
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Peter Chamberlain

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Re: Pushing Resolve out of 709...

PostTue Sep 20, 2016 1:32 pm

Something is not right. 1000s of projects daily use RCM.
If your source is not on the input color space and gamma list please let us know.
RCM provides transforms to the timeline which you can set and then to the output.
Can u describe what's not working for you so we can assist?
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Re: Pushing Resolve out of 709...

PostTue Sep 20, 2016 1:58 pm

what are you talking about?

set projector for p3Dci
get an image
set for straight yrgb color science
color until you're happy

what's wrong with it? P3 is not a magical space that needs something different...
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Charles Boileau

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Re: Pushing Resolve out of 709...

PostTue Sep 20, 2016 3:58 pm

Peter Chamberlain wrote:Something is not right. 1000s of projects daily use RCM.
If your source is not on the input color space and gamma list please let us know.
RCM provides transforms to the timeline which you can set and then to the output.
Can u describe what's not working for you so we can assist?


I've tested RCM a bunch of time. And every time I see weird things that I don't like. For example, pink blown out highlights etc... I'm setting everything properly. It's just not to our liking. I have the same feeling with ACEScc but it's a little bit better!
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Charles Boileau

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Re: Pushing Resolve out of 709...

PostTue Sep 20, 2016 5:52 pm

waltervolpatto wrote:what are you talking about?

set projector for p3Dci
get an image
set for straight yrgb color science
color until you're happy

what's wrong with it? P3 is not a magical space that needs something different...


Thanks Walter!

Here is what we did to experiment when we got the projector.

- Took a frame from the CML website. It features actors and a bunch of different charts and color cues.
- Graded that like we always do: curves, sat etc...
- Used a PR655 probe to check the primaries on the chart.
- Plotted these primaries in Lightspace. They did not even exceed 709.

- Took the same frame into ACEScc. Left it as is...
- Read the primaries with the PR655 probe again.
- Plotted the primaries in Lightspace. They exceeded 709 and were well on their way to P3. Not touching the coordinates but very close.

- After that I went back to YRGB and tried to push the primaries out... The images was horrendous!

So we concluded that YRGB could not work properly. And we figured that ACEScc was the way to go. But now I'm not very happy with the way it behaves. I really like doing curves etc...

So maybe RCM without managing the input might be the way? I see that it seems to be managing the colors properly: go to 709 it's saturated... Go to 2020
It's desat... But I'm not sure about the combination of timeline and output...

All that being said. Walter: you are confident that I can push into P3...? For example, on a nature doc etc...?

Cheers and thanks for the infos!!
Charles Boileau
Colorist
www.post-moderne.com
Montreal, Québec
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waltervolpatto

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Re: Pushing Resolve out of 709...

PostTue Sep 20, 2016 7:52 pm

in 709, if you have, let's say, some green grass, and you don't get to full saturation, in p3 it will not look any different.

the misconception is that in p3 we see more. more what? if you have a specific color that in 709 touch the edge of the color space, you can push that a bit further.

if you refer to the fact that measuring the projector with a proper prove you don't get exactly p3, welcome! not all the projector/monitor can actually do that.
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Charles Boileau

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Re: Pushing Resolve out of 709...

PostTue Sep 20, 2016 9:36 pm

waltervolpatto wrote:in 709, if you have, let's say, some green grass, and you don't get to full saturation, in p3 it will not look any different.

the misconception is that in p3 we see more. more what? if you have a specific color that in 709 touch the edge of the color space, you can push that a bit further.

if you refer to the fact that measuring the projector with a proper prove you don't get exactly p3, welcome! not all the projector/monitor can actually do that.


No I'm not refering to the calibration. I'm referring to a base grade that I like where the primaries are way inside 709 vs a ACEScc base grade that already exceeds 709. I just want to make sur I'm maximizing my work with the projector.

Thanks for the info!!
Charles Boileau
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www.post-moderne.com
Montreal, Québec
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Charles Boileau

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Re: Pushing Resolve out of 709...

PostThu Sep 22, 2016 12:51 pm

waltervolpatto wrote:in 709, if you have, let's say, some green grass, and you don't get to full saturation, in p3 it will not look any different.

the misconception is that in p3 we see more. more what? if you have a specific color that in 709 touch the edge of the color space, you can push that a bit further.

if you refer to the fact that measuring the projector with a proper prove you don't get exactly p3, welcome! not all the projector/monitor can actually do that.


Walter: Have you ever worked in ACEScc?
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Re: Pushing Resolve out of 709...

PostThu Sep 22, 2016 5:41 pm

Charles Boileau wrote:
waltervolpatto wrote:in 709, if you have, let's say, some green grass, and you don't get to full saturation, in p3 it will not look any different.

the misconception is that in p3 we see more. more what? if you have a specific color that in 709 touch the edge of the color space, you can push that a bit further.

if you refer to the fact that measuring the projector with a proper prove you don't get exactly p3, welcome! not all the projector/monitor can actually do that.


Walter: Have you ever worked in ACEScc?


no, the clients i usually work with are staying away from aces altogether....
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Dermot Shane

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Re: Pushing Resolve out of 709...

PostThu Sep 22, 2016 6:17 pm

i have three features and a tv series on the go currently, all are in ACEScc, my clients lurve whre i can go with it, and how quickly i can get there
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Re: Pushing Resolve out of 709...

PostMon Sep 26, 2016 11:26 pm

waltervolpatto wrote:no, the clients i usually work with are staying away from aces altogether....


This is very interesting. Do the VFX get done in a native camera wide gamut then or maybe P3? What is the reason for staying away from aces on such big productions?
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Re: Pushing Resolve out of 709...

PostTue Sep 27, 2016 9:55 am

Stepan Ko wrote:
waltervolpatto wrote:no, the clients i usually work with are staying away from aces altogether....


This is very interesting. Do the VFX get done in a native camera wide gamut then or maybe P3? What is the reason for staying away from aces on such big productions?


I have been told that the reason not to use RCM is because the world outside of DR is using ACES, (composite, different VFX and color grading applications) and for compatibility it's better to stay with ACES.
If from editing, color grading, VFX to master everything is done under the same house, then, RCM can be used.

I'm trying to decide which one to choose as the standard workflow. Being ACES the standard, I would like to hear too the reason why to stay away from ACES and the benefit to stay with RCM.
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waltervolpatto

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Re: Pushing Resolve out of 709...

PostTue Sep 27, 2016 4:12 pm

Stepan Ko wrote:
waltervolpatto wrote:no, the clients i usually work with are staying away from aces altogether....


This is very interesting. Do the VFX get done in a native camera wide gamut then or maybe P3? What is the reason for staying away from aces on such big productions?


for VFX we usually keep the primaries of the camera but we debayer in linear light, so, for alexa will be alexa gamut [primaries]/linear light and so forth...
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Stepan Ko

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Re: Pushing Resolve out of 709...

PostTue Sep 27, 2016 11:45 pm

Willian Aleman wrote:
Stepan Ko wrote:
waltervolpatto wrote:no, the clients i usually work with are staying away from aces altogether....


This is very interesting. Do the VFX get done in a native camera wide gamut then or maybe P3? What is the reason for staying away from aces on such big productions?


I have been told that the reason not to use RCM is because the world outside of DR is using ACES, (composite, different VFX and color grading applications) and for compatibility it's better to stay with ACES.
If from editing, color grading, VFX to master everything is done under the same house, then, RCM can be used.

I'm trying to decide which one to choose as the standard workflow. Being ACES the standard, I would like to hear too the reason why to stay away from ACES and the benefit to stay with RCM.


Correct me if i'm wrong but i think the talk here is not "don't use ACES, use rcm" the talk is don't use aces and certainly don't use rcm but grade in YRGB until things look good in dci-p3 compliant projector, then maybe use a dctl to convert the whitepoint to d65 and do a pass for broadcast and then the same for other deliverables. Would be interesting to know how that way works with 3d and hdr though. I might be totally wrong though.
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Charles Boileau

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Re: Pushing Resolve out of 709...

PostFri Sep 30, 2016 6:31 pm

waltervolpatto wrote:
Charles Boileau wrote:
waltervolpatto wrote:in 709, if you have, let's say, some green grass, and you don't get to full saturation, in p3 it will not look any different.

the misconception is that in p3 we see more. more what? if you have a specific color that in 709 touch the edge of the color space, you can push that a bit further.

if you refer to the fact that measuring the projector with a proper prove you don't get exactly p3, welcome! not all the projector/monitor can actually do that.


Walter: Have you ever worked in ACEScc?


no, the clients i usually work with are staying away from aces altogether....


What do you mean exactly?
Charles Boileau
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Charles Boileau

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Re: Pushing Resolve out of 709...

PostFri Sep 30, 2016 6:34 pm

Stepan Ko wrote:

Correct me if i'm wrong but i think the talk here is not "don't use ACES, use rcm" the talk is don't use aces and certainly don't use rcm but grade in YRGB until things look good in dci-p3 compliant projector, then maybe use a dctl to convert the whitepoint to d65 and do a pass for broadcast and then the same for other deliverables. Would be interesting to know how that way works with 3d and hdr though. I might be totally wrong though.


I would just use a LUT to convert to 709... But if you in ACEScc you can just switch from P3 to 709.

And by 3d you mean stereoscopy?

Thanks!
Charles Boileau
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waltervolpatto

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Re: Pushing Resolve out of 709...

PostFri Sep 30, 2016 6:42 pm

Charles Boileau wrote:
waltervolpatto wrote:
Charles Boileau wrote:
Walter: Have you ever worked in ACEScc?


no, the clients i usually work with are staying away from aces altogether....


What do you mean exactly?


usually the clients we work for like the camera LUT/tonal representation, or they have a LOOk predefined, or we work with full film emulations... Not much love for ACES...
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Re: Pushing Resolve out of 709...

PostFri Sep 30, 2016 7:35 pm

waltervolpatto wrote: Not much love for ACES...


There are arguments for and against its deployment -- which seem to depend on whether some very large organization needs a unified colorspace across its entire post ecology. Its supposedly a universal gamut, but it does demand some compromises in approach, depending on whether you wanted to access some of the metadata functions associated with certain kinds of source codecs. For example, you surrender the Camera RAW settings to the IDT on import. The data recorded by the sensor is interpreted by the A.C.E.S and thats what you get. The advantage would be that that is what everybody would see. If that is what you need. Then terrific, whale (or wail) away. If it isn't, and you would like to be able to use the Camera metadata to adjust exposure, ISO, color temp and so on... then it isn't for you.

Just because its "Academy approved", so what? Does it come with an Oscar attached? Would think about not using it for that reason alone.

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Re: Pushing Resolve out of 709...

PostFri Sep 30, 2016 9:32 pm

For example, you surrender the Camera RAW settings to the IDT on import. The data recorded by the sensor is interpreted by the A.C.E.S and thats what you get.


no.... sorry but really, no... i'm thinking you have not spent alot of seat time with ACES?

you do not have the linear to display refered options, the options that tone map and compress dynamic range and gamut into diusplay refered... as in compress the gamut and dynamic range

all other options are open to choice, iso, temp, tint, sharpening, on and on = all the artist's choice

Using the compressd dynamic range and gammut supplied by whomever = being forced into using footage that has it's dynamic range and gammut re-mapped and compressed to what ever they thought you might want.. And that all you give up, and it seems well worth giveing up if you have the chops to create your own starting point

what the real deal is the RRT, and that is not chageable in Resolve, as it is with other systems, and that's where artistic choice can be limiting in this particular application

but ultimatly less limiting that the dynamic range compression through tone mapping and gammut scaleing that is the sole reason for the display refered de-bayer options with RAW camera footage

yea, i've done alot of work in ACES in the last few years, i have a clue where the weak links are, and they are there, but really loseing access to the those de-bayer choices is far from a weak link, it's really the opposite

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