Canon Cinema Raw Light Support

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William McGough

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Canon Cinema Raw Light Support

PostTue Jul 25, 2017 5:45 pm

As of Beta 5, the Camera Raw panel (color temp, tint, exposure, etc) is not active for Canon Cinema Raw Light files (such as those from the C200).

Will Camera Raw controls eventually become available for Canon Cinema Raw Light files?

(Canon claims that DaVinci Resolve 14 will support this new file format.)
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Peter Chamberlain

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Re: Canon Cinema Raw Light Support

PostWed Jul 26, 2017 2:39 am

We do support reading C200 files and will review after v14 release the need for those raw controls. To date it looks like the full range of data is available to the Resolve image processor so all the grading can be complete in the standard grading tools. Is there some image where you fine this not to be the case?
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William McGough

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Re: Canon Cinema Raw Light Support

PostWed Jul 26, 2017 6:28 pm

Peter Chamberlain wrote:We do support reading C200 files and will review after v14 release the need for those raw controls. To date it looks like the full range of data is available to the Resolve image processor so all the grading can be complete in the standard grading tools. Is there some image where you fine this not to be the case?
Peter,

Thank you very much for your prompt response!

Perhaps I misunderstand Resolve's functionality – let me try to clarify with this question:
Do the Temperature and Tint corrections on Page 2 of the Adjustment Controls (under the Color Wheels) actually change the Raw debayer when working with Raw footage, or do they simply transform the RGB image which is still debayered at the tint+temp as shot?

Screen Shot 2017-07-26 at 2.26.10 PM.png
Screen Shot 2017-07-26 at 2.26.10 PM.png (73.93 KiB) Viewed 10737 times

If these modify the debayer on Raw footage, then adding the Camera Raw controls for Canon cameras is less urgent (since they are available with all footage – raw or otherwise). If, however, they only transform the RGB image after the debayer (which I suspect to be the case), then that would make a pretty compelling case because then this Raw footage would be limited to the nature of RGB footage.
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Peter Chamberlain

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Re: Canon Cinema Raw Light Support

PostThu Jul 27, 2017 12:09 am

They are in the primary palette so are in the RGB domain where we use 32bit floating point processing. If all of your raw is debayered and within the RGB limits you can adjust it as needed.
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William McGough

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Re: Canon Cinema Raw Light Support

PostThu Jul 27, 2017 3:30 am

Peter,

Thanks again for your prompt response!

So, in the case of Canon Raw/Canon Raw Light, is the debayer temp/tint determined by the metadata (from what was set in-camera at the time of recording) or is it always a default (such as 6500K, 0)?

(With the growing use of C700, potentially-wide audience of C200, and the likelihood that C300 & C500 successors will include Canon Raw Light, I very much hope Resolve is updated to support Camera Raw settings for these formats!)
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Jacob Fenn

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Re: Canon Cinema Raw Light Support

PostThu Aug 10, 2017 10:19 pm

I'd like to add my request as well that this be clarified beyond what Peter has said. As far as most of us know, the benefits of shooting raw seem largely nullified if we don't have access to the processing of the raw data *before* it hits the RGB stage, 32-bit floating point processing or not. If Resolve does not support this then the advertising for C200 raw support seems extremely misleading. Is this just consumer ignorance at not understanding how Canon Raw Light works in comparison to other raw formats?

Can someone from Blackmagic please clarify?
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Gerald Wiblin

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Re: Canon Cinema Raw Light Support

PostMon Aug 14, 2017 5:07 am

Adding additional request for canon cinema raw light to be supported like other raw formats.

Cheers,
Gerald
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Re: Canon Cinema Raw Light Support

PostThu Aug 17, 2017 6:00 pm

I bought the Canon C200 because it was promised "native raw support in resolve" for Cinema Raw Light. I'm super disappointed that I can't use the RAW as RAW.
Can you please let us know when or if this feature will be available?
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Samuele Lilliu

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Re: Canon Cinema Raw Light Support

PostTue Aug 22, 2017 6:39 pm

Same issue here. I am trying to understand the correct workflow with this file format.

I have tested a clip (apparently I cannot post links here) with Davinci Resolve (latest version).

The CRM file can be imported into Resolve. However, as mentioned by William, the Camera Raw panel does not work. So the white balance cannot be adjusted in the raw file.

The only option to control the white balance of the raw file seems to be the Cinema Raw Development software. The default export File option is ‘Output Full-quality files’. The raw file can then be converted into 3 file types, which are all compressed (DPX/OpenEXR). The correct color space and gamma should be selected before exporting. The software outputs a file for each frame. The audio is exported as a separate file. These files can be imported into Resolve. The problem is that the imported sequence of files (each 50MB, 20GB in total vs the original 2GB file – maybe I got the export settings wrong!) plays slowly (about 6fps – without caching), but the CRM plays in real time (25fps). These single files don’t seem to be usable.

There is another option under Export File: ‘Copy Raw Files’. This generates a sequence of RMF files, which can be imported into Davinci Resolve (each file is about 13MB). However, again, the Camera Raw control doesn’t work. It seems that there is no way to convert RMF into Cinema DNG. White balance or sharpness adjustments do not have any effect on the RMF files. I guess this is simply the CRM file split into single frame files.

The CRM file and the exported sequences (either DPX or RMF) look very similar (there are small differences in the parade/vectorscope). Does Resolve apply the same color space and gamma operations done by the Cinema Raw Development software when the CRM file is imported?

In summary, do you guys know what’s the best approach to work with these files?

Thanks
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Re: Canon Cinema Raw Light Support

PostFri Aug 25, 2017 3:52 pm

Samuele Lilliu wrote:Same issue here. I am trying to understand the correct workflow with this file format.

I have tested a clip (apparently I cannot post links here) with Davinci Resolve (latest version).

The CRM file can be imported into Resolve. However, as mentioned by William, the Camera Raw panel does not work. So the white balance cannot be adjusted in the raw file.

The only option to control the white balance of the raw file seems to be the Cinema Raw Development software. The default export File option is ‘Output Full-quality files’. The raw file can then be converted into 3 file types, which are all compressed (DPX/OpenEXR). The correct color space and gamma should be selected before exporting. The software outputs a file for each frame. The audio is exported as a separate file. These files can be imported into Resolve. The problem is that the imported sequence of files (each 50MB, 20GB in total vs the original 2GB file – maybe I got the export settings wrong!) plays slowly (about 6fps – without caching), but the CRM plays in real time (25fps). These single files don’t seem to be usable.

There is another option under Export File: ‘Copy Raw Files’. This generates a sequence of RMF files, which can be imported into Davinci Resolve (each file is about 13MB). However, again, the Camera Raw control doesn’t work. It seems that there is no way to convert RMF into Cinema DNG. White balance or sharpness adjustments do not have any effect on the RMF files. I guess this is simply the CRM file split into single frame files.

The CRM file and the exported sequences (either DPX or RMF) look very similar (there are small differences in the parade/vectorscope). Does Resolve apply the same color space and gamma operations done by the Cinema Raw Development software when the CRM file is imported?

In summary, do you guys know what’s the best approach to work with these files?

Thanks


Great questions here that, as a new C200 owner, I'd also love the answers to.
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Jean Claude

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Re: Canon Cinema Raw Light Support

PostFri Aug 25, 2017 5:01 pm

Play with some C200 clips .... woahhhh. Oops .. Splendid !!! I love. :)

Maybe play with Color Space TRansform OFX (Waiting better for the RAW?)
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Re: Canon Cinema Raw Light Support

PostWed Sep 06, 2017 9:10 pm

I also would like to see control over the raw data in Resolve.
Last edited by Tom Deburchgrave on Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Paul Beauchamp

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Re: Canon Cinema Raw Light Support

PostThu Sep 07, 2017 9:33 am

Would just like to echo the sentiment in here for full RAW controls for CRM in Resolve.

Would be great if someone from BM could chip in as to whether or not this is in the pipeline, or if there is some kind of technical limitation.

Thanks in advance

Paul
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Peter Chamberlain

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Re: Canon Cinema Raw Light Support

PostThu Sep 07, 2017 11:39 am

We will look into it. It wasn't on our v14 release plan.
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Paul Beauchamp

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Re: Canon Cinema Raw Light Support

PostThu Sep 07, 2017 12:02 pm

Peter Chamberlain wrote:We will look into it. It wasn't on our v14 release plan.


Thank you Peter, that's great news. C200 is becoming a popular camera, and it would be a real boost for Resolve to be the first to properly support the CRM controls.
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Re: Canon Cinema Raw Light Support

PostThu Sep 07, 2017 3:03 pm

I would love to have full CRM support for my C200 as well!
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Re: Canon Cinema Raw Light Support

PostThu Sep 07, 2017 3:09 pm

I would like to point out that once the data is captured by the photosensor, and passed thru the A/D converter (and stored in the RAW file format of the camera) it is what it is: changing the color temperature or the ISO, only does gain the RGB in linear light space.

If you debayer in resolve (lets say in an intermediate 32 float, linear light) and you do the gain yourself, you get exactly the same result.

Mathematically.
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Re: Canon Cinema Raw Light Support

PostSat Sep 09, 2017 1:28 pm

waltervolpatto wrote:I would like to point out that once the data is captured by the photosensor, and passed thru the A/D converter (and stored in the RAW file format of the camera) it is what it is: changing the color temperature or the ISO, only does gain the RGB in linear light space.

If you debayer in resolve (lets say in an intermediate 32 float, linear light) and you do the gain yourself, you get exactly the same result.

Mathematically.


Sorry, can you ELI5?

Are you saying adjusting the white balance and exposure using the colour wheels is the same (mathematically speaking) as adjusting in the RAW tab?
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Re: Canon Cinema Raw Light Support

PostSat Sep 09, 2017 1:59 pm

Paul Beauchamp wrote:
waltervolpatto wrote:I would like to point out that once the data is captured by the photosensor, and passed thru the A/D converter (and stored in the RAW file format of the camera) it is what it is: changing the color temperature or the ISO, only does gain the RGB in linear light space.

If you debayer in resolve (lets say in an intermediate 32 float, linear light) and you do the gain yourself, you get exactly the same result.

Mathematically.


Sorry, can you ELI5?

Are you saying adjusting the white balance and exposure using the colour wheels is the same (mathematically speaking) as adjusting in the RAW tab?


Yes in linear light.
Once you debayer in a container that does not clip the data, everything else is math: gain in linear light is mathematically equivalent to temperature, tint, and exposure.
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Re: Canon Cinema Raw Light Support

PostSat Sep 09, 2017 3:13 pm

use ACES workflow -or- transform node to linearlight...

works untill you need access to something like RED's "DRx", or ArriRAW "sharpen" for example, those can be replacated to some extent with some work in linearlight,

do you have any settings in CanonRAW that are not easly replacated in the existing gradeing tools? ( i have nevver seen a frame from this camera)
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Re: Canon Cinema Raw Light Support

PostSat Sep 09, 2017 5:37 pm

I'd happily do the image manipulation itself with the normal controls, just like it is now. It works great and performance is good too.

But I think the raw tab should be made available with the option to at least select different Canon Log profiles. Resolve should be able to replicate the basic functionality of Canon's software.

On a different note: I haven't seen a white paper on Canon Raw Light yet. I think some people are making assumptions regarding the "level of raw" that might not be true. For instance, the Raw Light container might in fact contain already extracted/debayered channels of RGB that have been re-muxed into what's called 'Canon Raw Light', where each channel is separate in order to shift them around to change white balance, let's say. Canon has done this before.

So, 'raw light' not 'raw'. Just like what it says on the label.
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Re: Canon Cinema Raw Light Support

PostMon Sep 11, 2017 7:22 am

Who knows which color space and gamma resolve uses for the debayering of these CRM files? Since there is no option for us to choose...
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Re: Canon Cinema Raw Light Support

PostMon Sep 11, 2017 7:45 am

Tom Deburchgrave wrote:Who knows which color space and gamma resolve uses for the debayering of these CRM files? Since there is no option for us to choose...


I'd also like to know this..
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Re: Canon Cinema Raw Light Support

PostTue Sep 12, 2017 10:52 pm

I love having access to intelligent people on this forum.

I've shot a couple test clips, each white balanced incorrectly to the extreme on the C200. In Canon's "Cinema Raw Development" software, I do a one-click white balance and the image is restored instantly. Try as I might in Resolve, I cannot get the same level of restoration. I'm assuming that any scene-referred linear workflow should allow me to resolve the white balance problem (based on what I'm learning from Walter and Dermot). I've tried an ACES workflow and RCM, both of which, to my knowledge, would be linear approaches that, per BM and Canon, should 'give me access to all the data', but I'm stumped. Here are the two raw files (140MB). Could someone please demonstrate their workflow for getting the Resolve results to match the white balance salvageability of the Canon screenshots?

http://www.fennworld.com/jfenn/Misc/C200-Raw_Test.zip

As far as what gamut and gamma are being debayered to, it looks awfully close to Cinema Gamut and Canon Log 2 from my testing. Disconcerting that it's not exactly that, however (results in Resolve don't match Canon's software).

Andree, out of curiosity, what other format has Canon historically used for this 'already debayered' approach? I'm not so concerned with being allowed to choose different Canon log profiles to debayer to– Cinema Gamut and Canon Log 2 maximize what the camera is capable of in my view, I'd just like to know, along with the rest of you, what the specific gamma/gamut are.
Attachments
Screen Shot 2017-09-12 at 4.44.00 PM.jpg
One-click white balance inside Canon's Cinema Raw Development Software
Screen Shot 2017-09-12 at 4.44.00 PM.jpg (198.3 KiB) Viewed 9850 times
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Re: Canon Cinema Raw Light Support

PostWed Sep 13, 2017 1:58 am

Can somebody from blackmagic please set the record straight with this topic? How is davinci handling c200 raw files and when will there be access to the RAW tab?
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William McGough

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Re: Canon Cinema Raw Light Support

PostMon Sep 18, 2017 1:29 am

@Jacob,

One of the interesting things I have noticed is that applying the Canon provided CinemaGamut_CanonLog2-to-BT709_BT709_65_FN_Ver.1.1 LUT (and nothing else) to the Cinema Raw Light footage in Resolve seems to show the footage 3 stops underexposed compared with the default display of the Canon Cinema Raw Development app (when working in 709 in both apps).

I took your test footage and attempted to bring it back to reality using two methods:

Method A:
Node 1: Color Match {src gamma: Canon Log 2; tgt gamma: Canon Log 2; tgt color: Rec.2020; temp: 6500}
Node 2: Auto white balance to the large white chip.
Node 3: Adjust {lift: -0.02; gamma: 0.07; gain: 1.03; shadow: 0.13; highlight: -0.08} + LUT {BT2020_CanonLog2-to-BT709_BT709_65_FN_Ver.1.1}
c200-with-chart.jpg
Using Color Match
c200-with-chart.jpg (966.9 KiB) Viewed 9690 times


Method B:
Node 1: Auto white balance to the large white chip.
Node 2: Adjust {lift: -0.02; gamma: 0.07; gain: 1.03; shadow: 0.13; highlight: -0.08} + LUT {CinemaGamut_CanonLog2-to-BT709_BT709_65_FN_Ver.1.1}
c200-without-chart.jpg
Without Using Color Match
c200-without-chart.jpg (976.38 KiB) Viewed 9690 times


Anomaly:
When following Method B (not using Color Match), I found it very hard using just the color temperature control to keep the blue out of the shadows while keeping the highlights from yellowing. Of course, the color of the shadows and highlights can be individually-adjusted on their respective wheels, but it did feel just a tad strange to me.

If you compare the image below to the image from Canon's software or to the image from Method A, you will notice that the shadows are more blue (cooler) yet the shadows are more yellow (warmer):
c200-without-chart-2.jpg
Without Using Color Match, but warmer
c200-without-chart-2.jpg (924.41 KiB) Viewed 9690 times


This difference in tint between the highlight and shadows does not make sense to me because all of the methods above are only adjusting the temperature for the entire tonal range and your original distortion (in camera low temperature) was, of course, modifying the entire tonal range. (I am viewing from a calibrated Eizo display in Rec.709 mode.)

At the end of the day, you can still get some nice images out of Resolve, but it takes a good deal extra work cleaning up the details like shadow/highlight temperature imbalances as described above. My guess is that Resolve's implementation of CinemaGamut is at least related to the problem – or perhaps the debayer before temperature adjustment is the issue.

I very much hope the Resolve team sees fit to add the Camera Raw controls for Cinema Raw Light footage – not only will it greatly improve the workflow, but it would make precise grading possible by explicitly describing gamma & gamut while gaining all of the benefits of adjustments being made before debayer.
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Paul Beauchamp

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Re: Canon Cinema Raw Light Support

PostMon Sep 25, 2017 10:01 am

Anyone from BM able to comment on what colour space we are currently getting using CRM files in Resolve? Seems to be some confusion around this issue.
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Re: Canon Cinema Raw Light Support

PostMon Sep 25, 2017 7:01 pm

Even more pressing is getting the ability to choose. I'll be commonly using CLog-3, but for jobs or shots that I need the max DR you have to use CLog-2. Maybe I'm missing it, but without the RAW tab I don't see a way to choose which log mode you want to process with.
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Re: Canon Cinema Raw Light Support

PostWed Sep 27, 2017 2:14 am

Fahnon Bennett wrote:Even more pressing is getting the ability to choose. I'll be commonly using CLog-3, but for jobs or shots that I need the max DR you have to use CLog-2.
@Fahnon, this is somewhat unclear to me, but I am guessing that the in-camera log settings are only affecting the .MP4 recordings. It looks to me as if the Cinema Raw Light is interpreted by default as Canon Log 2 (although I could be wrong as the way Canon explains this format is rather confusing).
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Fahnon Bennett

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Re: Canon Cinema Raw Light Support

PostThu Sep 28, 2017 2:34 am

William McGough wrote:
Fahnon Bennett wrote:Even more pressing is getting the ability to choose. I'll be commonly using CLog-3, but for jobs or shots that I need the max DR you have to use CLog-2.
@Fahnon, this is somewhat unclear to me, but I am guessing that the in-camera log settings are only affecting the .MP4 recordings. It looks to me as if the Cinema Raw Light is interpreted by default as Canon Log 2 (although I could be wrong as the way Canon explains this format is rather confusing).


Not so; when you load a CRM file into Canon's RAW development software, you have a choice of which gamma you'd like and CLog-3 is the default. You're meant to choose the log gamma is appropriate for the project (if you'd even like a log gamma at all). In fact, you can't even use CLog-2 outside of RAW (it's meant for 10-bit and up).

In Resolve, it visually looks like CLog-3 it's choosing to me. CLog-2 is what you need if you want to get the full 15 stops out of the sensor.
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William McGough

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Re: Canon Cinema Raw Light Support

PostFri Sep 29, 2017 2:13 am

Fahnon Bennett wrote:when you load a CRM file into Canon's RAW development software, you have a choice of which gamma you'd like and CLog-3 is the default. You're meant to choose the log gamma is appropriate for the project (if you'd even like a log gamma at all). In fact, you can't even use CLog-2 outside of RAW (it's meant for 10-bit and up).
As I understand it, only Canon Log 2 is capable of representing the 15-stops of DR that Canon quotes the C200 as capturing via Cinema Raw Light. (CLog 1 and CLog 3 can only hold less DR.) Since it is possible to export Canon Log 2 footage with the entirety of that DR from Canon's software, then I see one of two possibilities:
either
1. C200 records Cinema Raw Light in Canon Log 2 (which could then be downsampled to CLog 1 or 3 by the software)
or
2. C200 records Cinema Raw Light in some intermediate format with at least the capabilities of Canon Log 2.

That being said, I am still quite confused by both Canon's and Resolve's implementation...there appears to be great potential here, but a little more work is required for a straightforward workflow. (Canon should better explain what gamma Cinema Raw Light is recorded as and Blackmagic should add debayer settings control for Cinema Raw Light.)
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Fahnon Bennett

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Re: Canon Cinema Raw Light Support

PostFri Sep 29, 2017 3:25 am

William McGough wrote:
Fahnon Bennett wrote:when you load a CRM file into Canon's RAW development software, you have a choice of which gamma you'd like and CLog-3 is the default. You're meant to choose the log gamma is appropriate for the project (if you'd even like a log gamma at all). In fact, you can't even use CLog-2 outside of RAW (it's meant for 10-bit and up).
As I understand it, only Canon Log 2 is capable of representing the 15-stops of DR that Canon quotes the C200 as capturing via Cinema Raw Light. (CLog 1 and CLog 3 can only hold less DR.) Since it is possible to export Canon Log 2 footage with the entirety of that DR from Canon's software, then I see one of two possibilities:
either
1. C200 records Cinema Raw Light in Canon Log 2 (which could then be downsampled to CLog 1 or 3 by the software)
or
2. C200 records Cinema Raw Light in some intermediate format with at least the capabilities of Canon Log 2.

That being said, I am still quite confused by both Canon's and Resolve's implementation...there appears to be great potential here, but a little more work is required for a straightforward workflow. (Canon should better explain what gamma Cinema Raw Light is recorded as and Blackmagic should add debayer settings control for Cinema Raw Light.)


I would bet it's doing #2, but I would say it as Canon is allowing you to develop the RAW footage in whichever gamma you think is appropriate (you can even develop it as WideDR). Agree that BMD should enable full debayer controls and RAW settings. For example in the Canon software you can change the white balance and dial in kelvin values.

I'm kinda used to being able to do that when shooting RAW.
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Re: Canon Cinema Raw Light Support

PostFri Sep 29, 2017 8:22 am

If the raw format contains raw bayer pattern sensor data, it has no gamma, no log, no white balance. These are properties of RGB image, not raw sensor data.

Raw image can be thought of as being in "sensor referred" domain. It contains all the data that is captured by the camera in its most pure digital form.

To start doing any image manipulation on that data, it must be debayered, linearized, gamut transformed to some more meaningful RGB space and so on. White balancing could be done on raw data before debayer, but can also be done on RGB data, result should be very similar. Some sources argue that wb before debayer gives better results, but this is due to debayer filtering nuances, not wb itself. White balancing is, as Walter wrote, just a scaling of pixel values in linear space.

When debayer, gamut transforms, white balancing and other necessary stuff is done, some transfer curve is applied to linear data to either present it correctly on display (rec709) or modify the data in a way that is most efficient for storing the available dynamic range (log curves). In this step is the canon log curve applied and image data exits the raw processing chain and enters the general Resolve image processing. Now, to do white balancing yourself, first thing to do is to linearize the log or gamma curve.

The problems with white balancing described in previous posts are due to not doing the scaling on linear RGB data. Reading a log profile in without modifications or transforming it to rec709 will not linearize it. To get image properly linearized, it must be done explicitly using nodes. Setting your project working space to linear would interfere too much with general grading, so it is probably not a good idea, although should also work.

None of the ACES processing spaces nor the Resolve YRGB color managed processing works in linear space by default.
Last edited by Hendrik Proosa on Fri Sep 29, 2017 8:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Hendrik Proosa

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Re: Canon Cinema Raw Light Support

PostFri Sep 29, 2017 8:43 am

Raw image btw has no standard gamut either. I was quite surprised to learn that most cameras are able to capture all visible colors (meaning whole gamut of human vision) and can also produce nonphysical colors. To get this sensor data into some more useful gamut, a sensor specific transform matrix is developed. Usually it is called something fancy, like camera color science. The purpose of this transform is to bring the sensor values to XYZ space so that color reproduction accuracy is the best it could be. The problem with sensors is not ability to capture some saturated color, it is the ability to separate them.

In raw image development, when you select the output gamut, image is first transformed from sensor space to XYZ and then from XYZ to selected gamut, be it rec709, ACES or something else. It is also possible to read the camera matrix from the metadata of raw file (or from some specification document) and actually do all the gamut transforms manually.
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William McGough

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Re: Canon Cinema Raw Light Support

PostSun Oct 01, 2017 4:01 pm

Hendrik Proosa wrote:If the raw format contains raw bayer pattern sensor data, it has no gamma, no log, no white balance. These are properties of RGB image, not raw sensor data.
@Hendrik,

To my understanding, some "Raw" formats encode the luminance values of each photosite logarithmically while others don't. I believe the Sony FS5/FS7 Raw output is linear whereas Blackmagic Ursa Mini's Raw recording is logarithmic.

Of course you are right that the actual Raw image inherently has no white balance – it is purely metadata. This is part of what makes the Cinema Raw Light implementation in Resolve so frustrating: Resolve is clearly capable of debayering the footage by reading in the white balance metadata – why can't the user just substitute their own value! (Seems like a quick UI fix because the underlying logic is already there.)

To your point on white balance problems being alleviated by switching to a linear workflow: that is an interesting theory – I will have to check it out! (In the end, however, I don't believe any workflow that starts out with RGB can match changing the temp before debayer.)
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Hendrik Proosa

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Re: Canon Cinema Raw Light Support

PostSun Oct 01, 2017 6:06 pm

That is true, there are a lot of interesting things done in different cameras and file formats :) But the general logic still is the same: to do image processing operations properly, they must be done when image is in proper "state". Wb will get funky in log space (unless you use lift instead of gain and it is true log) and LUTs "don't work" when applied to image in wrong state.
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waltervolpatto

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Re: Canon Cinema Raw Light Support

PostMon Oct 02, 2017 1:15 am


To your point on white balance problems being alleviated by switching to a linear workflow: that is an interesting theory – I will have to check it out! (In the end, however, I don't believe any workflow that starts out with RGB can match changing the temp before debayer.)


That's religion.
White balance is math. Period.
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Re: Canon Cinema Raw Light Support

PostMon Oct 02, 2017 7:35 am

White balance and image processing in general has gained a mystical aura it seems. A value is a value both before debayer and after. A multiplication is a multiplication both before and after. 2+2 will not suddenly turn to 5, unless stuff is broken (do math with nonlinear data and expect linear results).

I can cook up a workflow where I do all grading ops, including wb, in native sensor gamut and also rebayer it. Will it make the image somehow qualitatively better? Most probably not.
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Re: Canon Cinema Raw Light Support

PostTue Oct 03, 2017 7:32 pm

waltervolpatto wrote:That's religion.
White balance is math. Period.

White balance being technically acheivable in post-debayer linear RGB has been mentioned many times now. Walter, would you mind showing us your process for doing this on Canon's Cinema Raw Light files? Here is a very small file you're welcome to use where I've white balanced incorrectly:

http://www.fennworld.com/jfenn/Misc/C200-Raw_Test.zip

Even if you don't want to screen record or screen cap the process, could you quickly detail how you'd set it up in Resolve?

Thank you.
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Re: Canon Cinema Raw Light Support

PostThu Oct 05, 2017 1:56 pm

I fiddled with the test images in Nuke a bit and I'll try to make some kind of video tomorrow about the process. I know Nuke better than Resolve and it is easier to show what kind of transforms the image is actually going through.

Discovered one thing that affects the WB: the Canon Cinema Gamut seems to be not the only gamut transform that is applied to sensor values. I suspect that there is a camera specific transform that preceeds it and due to this, WB done on Cinema Gamut data is not an exact match to WB done in Cinema RAW Development application. Differences are the greatest in blue hues.

So, how close is a one-click (actually two-click to fix the shadow tint) WB to the one done in Cinema RAW Development? This close:
Image

Source image is a 16bit DPX exported from Cinema RAW Development (Nuke 10.5 does not read the native format) with Cinema Gamut and CLog2. The image is then linearized and white balancing is done with a grade node. After that it is converted to Output-rec709. Image WB-d in Cinema RAW Development was also exported as DPX with same settings and simply transformed to Output-rec709. I did all this using OCIO and ACES config version 1.0.3 because all the Canon transforms are nicely accessible there.
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Re: Canon Cinema Raw Light Support

PostFri Oct 06, 2017 4:43 am

Looks like the newest update doesn’t add full raw lite support for the c200, as the raw tab is greyed out still. I really hope this is added soon
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Re: Canon Cinema Raw Light Support

PostFri Oct 06, 2017 10:13 am

I made a short video to demonstrate the relevant transforms and other things related to white balancing a C200 Cinema Gamut CLog2 footage after debayering. Demo is in Nuke, but everything I show should be possible in Resolve also.

The whitepoint knob I use in Nuke is a convenience method to scale RGB channels so that selected value will result in 1.0, 1.0, 1.0. Basically it divides each channel with the sampled value.

No sound, choose music to your liking 8-)
https://vimeo.com/kaldera/clog2wb
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Re: Canon Cinema Raw Light Support

PostWed Oct 18, 2017 1:17 pm

Hi guys, I just received the following reply (see below) from the Canon support (after 50 days...). Replying to them would not make sense, as I would probably need to wait another month and a half to get an answer. I'm trying to make sense of the first two replies. If what they say is correct, the following are taking place when recording RAW:

1) You apply whatever profile before recording (Canon Log 3, Canon Log, or BT.709)
2) The RAW file is recorded using these settings (what does that mean?)
3) Resolve 'magically' bypasses these settings
4) These settings become visible only if you 'develop' the files with the Canon SW.

In my opinion this does not make sense. What do you guys think? All these questions could be avoided if Canon had published a paper describing what's going on here.

Anyways, I still think no matter what you select (Canon Log 3, Canon Log, or BT.709) it does not make any difference to the recorded RAW file (however these settings affect the proxy files recorded on the SD card).

----------------------------------
- Do the Custom Picture Settings (see page 123 of the manual) affect the Raw file?

One can adjust the settings on the RAW file according to adjustments made in the CP menu. Effectively you are telling the camera to apply a set of conditions to the image. It will still be a RAW file however (this process is similar to that of setting a colour space etc).

- When the files are opened in the Cinema Raw Development or in Davinci Resolve they look identical, although they have been shot using Canon Log 3, Canon Log, and BT.709.

If the image is being viewed before development, then you would not expect to see any differences as you are looking at the de-bayered image – it has no post settings applied to it.

- I understood that Log and Log 2 are not the same thing. Could you explain why the C-200 has only the options of Log and Log3, while the Cinema Raw Development has only Log2 and Log3. Why this mismatch?

Log2 is optimised for 4:2:2 (or higher) 10bit recording and cannot be natively applied to the MP4 option as it is 4:2:0 8bit or to CRL footage. When recording CRL the footage is captured at 10 or12bit and using something called a RAW GAMMA. This is not a “curve” in the traditional sense. When you process in CRD the options given are for the output file Gamma Curve to be applied as either Log 2 or Log 3. At this point the same considerations as other cameras with Log 2 come into play with Log 2 giving wider DR but requiring more work in post than Log 3. (C700 RAW works in a similar way).

It is possible to apply Log 2 because the footage is either 10 bit 0r 12bit and there is enough information within the CRL file to allow this level of conversion as well as the ability to output (after conversion) at higher image specs. So, there is no actual mismatch. Log or Log 3 can be applied to MP4 recording, CRL recording options are Log 3 or Log 2 AFTER development.
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Re: Canon Cinema Raw Light Support

PostWed Oct 18, 2017 3:45 pm

1) You apply whatever profile before recording (Canon Log 3, Canon Log, or BT.709)
2) The RAW file is recorded using these settings (what does that mean?)
3) Resolve 'magically' bypasses these settings
4) These settings become visible only if you 'develop' the files with the Canon SW.

In my opinion this does not make sense. What do you guys think? All these questions could be avoided if Canon had published a paper describing what's going on here.

Makes perfect sense. All settings you can fiddle with in camera are saved as metadata to the raw file. It is up to the raw development software (Cinema Raw or Resolve or whatnot) to use these settings or to override them with something else. This metadata is mostly useful for recreating whatever was monitored on set, because to monitor something from camera, it MUST be developed first to actually see anything meaningful. Camera debayers and applies the selected settings in hardware before video feed output.
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Re: Canon Cinema Raw Light Support

PostThu Oct 19, 2017 9:36 pm

Hendrik Proosa wrote:
1) You apply whatever profile before recording (Canon Log 3, Canon Log, or BT.709)
2) The RAW file is recorded using these settings (what does that mean?)
3) Resolve 'magically' bypasses these settings
4) These settings become visible only if you 'develop' the files with the Canon SW.

In my opinion this does not make sense. What do you guys think? All these questions could be avoided if Canon had published a paper describing what's going on here.

Makes perfect sense. All settings you can fiddle with in camera are saved as metadata to the raw file. It is up to the raw development software (Cinema Raw or Resolve or whatnot) to use these settings or to override them with something else. This metadata is mostly useful for recreating whatever was monitored on set, because to monitor something from camera, it MUST be developed first to actually see anything meaningful. Camera debayers and applies the selected settings in hardware before video feed output.


...i.e. those settings do not affect the RAW data.
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Re: Canon Cinema Raw Light Support

PostFri Oct 20, 2017 11:58 pm

I'm having issues loading the caon raw light files into Davinci Resolve 14 (both 14.0 and 14.0.1) in Windows 7 64 bit (SP) on a Dell precisión m6700, nVidia Quadro k300m and with 32 gb of RAM.

Is there anyone having the same issue?
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Re: Canon Cinema Raw Light Support

PostSat Nov 04, 2017 9:28 pm

Hendrik Proosa wrote:I made a short video to demonstrate the relevant transforms and other things related to white balancing a C200 Cinema Gamut CLog2 footage after debayering.
No sound, choose music to your liking 8-)
https://vimeo.com/kaldera/clog2wb


Hendrik,

I didn't like my music choice, but your video was excellent. Better than what I've seen in theaters recently. Thank you for taking the time to do that. I had experience the same outcome in Resolve, but wasn't sure if my setup was correct so your verification confirms in my mind that Resolve is indeed missing a necessary color transform step that Canon's software knows about. Besides that, post-debayer white balance adjustment and exposure compensation are both possible in linear. Good to know.

As far as the hue correction goes, I'm not familiar enough with how Nuke operates to replicate it, but do you happen to know a similar method for accomplishing the same hue shift in Resolve?
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waltervolpatto

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Re: Canon Cinema Raw Light Support

PostSun Nov 05, 2017 3:20 am

Does anybody have the canon white pages with the primaries of the camera and the log mapping?
Walter Volpatto - C.S.I.
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Jean Claude

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Re: Canon Cinema Raw Light Support

PostSun Nov 05, 2017 6:45 pm

waltervolpatto wrote:Does anybody have the canon white pages with the primaries of the camera and the log mapping?

+1
and a real, true raw clip? (a few tens of seconds)
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