Fairlight Oddities

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Jim Simon

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Fairlight Oddities

PostTue Sep 19, 2017 7:04 pm

I thought I would start a thread for some of the weirdness folks are seeing on the Fairlight page. Hopefully BMD can use this as a guide to correction.
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Jim Simon

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Re: Fairlight Oddities

PostTue Sep 19, 2017 7:05 pm

No effects at all? Really?
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Jim Simon

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Re: Fairlight Oddities

PostTue Sep 19, 2017 7:09 pm

The navigation shortcuts on the Fairlight page are...odd. I would expect to be able to use the same navigation shortcuts I use on the Edit page. In my case, Arrow Up/Down for clip navigation, and Arrow Left/Right for frame navigation. (We are editing to video, after all.) I can understand the addition of audio specific navigation, but these four basic operations should be present, functioning, and identical to those from the Edit page. One set of shortcuts working across the program.

I am happy to report that the Zoom shortcuts do work across pages.

Sadly, Marker navigation also does not function on the Fairlight page.
Last edited by Jim Simon on Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:21 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Jim Simon

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Re: Fairlight Oddities

PostTue Sep 19, 2017 7:11 pm

The Jump Left/Right commands don't operate as expected. While I can move from clip to clip with the commands, and the clips are 'selected' in the timeline, they're not selected in the Inspector. I would expect this to be so in order to make adjustments to each clip in turn as we quickly move between them. Instead, only the Track is 'selected' in the Inspector.
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Jim Simon

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Re: Fairlight Oddities

PostTue Sep 19, 2017 8:47 pm

Track height isn't remembered. I have to keep putting it back where I want it.
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PeterMoretti

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Re: Fairlight Oddities

PostTue Sep 19, 2017 9:47 pm

Jim Simon wrote:The navigation shortcuts on the Fairlight page are...odd. I would expect to be able to use the same navigation shortcuts I use on the Edit page. In my case, Arrow Up/Down for clip navigation, and Arrow Left/Right for frame navigation. (We are editing to video, after all.) I can understand the addition of audio specific navigation, but these four basic operations should be present, functioning, and identical to those from the Edit page. One set of shortcuts working across the program.

I am happy to report that the Zoom shortcuts do work across pages.

Sadly, Marker navigation also does not function on the Fairlight page.


There are two overall design principles that the BMD team really needs to embrace.

1. Navigation features need to be available and consistent across all Pages as much as possible. For example, Shift -> moves one second forward on the Edit Page but does nothing on the Color Page. And the Fairlight Page is in its own world in terms of navigation and shortcuts, AFAICT.

2. We should be able to do everything with the keyboard. For example, there are a lot of instances where there is no way to tab to the next or previous field in a dialogbox, e.g. the one for creating a new timeline.

As a longtime Media Composer user, I am used to being able to use the keyboard for literally everything. That is the expectation that MC users switching over will have. On a big project, having to reach for the mouse is going to be a deal killer.

And of course I deeply appreciate all of the hard work and attentiveness from the BMD team. You guys are VERY VERY IMPRESSIVE!
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PalmerWoodrow

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UI problems

PostTue Sep 19, 2017 11:51 pm

I was trying to track down a panning problem, so I went to the Fairlight page.

The first strange thing is that it showed no audio in any of my audio tracks.

As I was hunting around for potentially redundant panning controls, I noticed that the controls in the track header area are all unlabeled and lack ToolTips. I can guess what mute and solo are, but the others? The numeric field can't be typed in, so if you change it, you have to fiddle with the mouse to return it to zero.

Not good, guys. Look at this:

Fairlight.png
Fairlight.png (161.05 KiB) Viewed 1062 times


Oh, and a tangential beef about this forum: When I upload a graphic and then press "place inline", that means PLACE IT INLINE. Not at the top of the message. Please fix that too.
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Glenn Venghaus

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Re: Fairlight Oddities

PostWed Sep 20, 2017 9:42 am

Doubleclick the fader knob to reset to zero. Common practice in any DAW. You never mess with the numeric display. Its just there for convenience.
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PalmerWoodrow

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Re: Fairlight Oddities

PostWed Sep 20, 2017 9:57 am

Thanks for the info. But what if you want to enter an exact value, perhaps repeatedly across multiple tracks? It's a text field, so it should function as one.

And let's face it, DAWs suffer from a lot of crappy common practices. Like using a "knob" metaphor in a GUI. Ugh.
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Reynaud Venter

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Re: Fairlight Oddities

PostWed Sep 20, 2017 10:09 am

PalmerWoodrow wrote:Thanks for the info. But what if you want to enter an exact value, perhaps repeatedly across multiple tracks?
That's where VCAs or Channel Groups would be used (not yet implemented).

The Timeline Track Gain value is merely a useful secondary indicator of Mixer channel fader position.
It is especially useful when the software Mixer is either on a second or third display further away from the operator, or when hidden (i.e. not displayed).

And let's face it, DAWs suffer from a lot of crappy common practices. Like using a "knob" metaphor in a GUI
Disagree.

When using a hardware console, the on-screen virtual knob translates to the action of the physical knob (especially when adjusting the physical knob and referencing in the software Mixer).

When constantly scanning hundreds of tracks in a session, a knob is a much better indicator of relative position than a numerical value believe it or not. The same is true for Pan, much clearer with a graphical representation than a numerical value.
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PalmerWoodrow

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Re: Fairlight Oddities

PostWed Sep 20, 2017 10:34 am

The important part of that statement is "when using a hardware console," which is not a GUI. In that case, you're using a physical interface and the display is just that: a display.

Like many (most?) people, I'm not using a hardware console.

I wasn't suggesting only having a numeric value, though. A slider-style control makes much more sense in a GUI. A circular control is cumbersome to operate with a mouse and cursor.
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Reynaud Venter

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Re: Fairlight Oddities

PostWed Sep 20, 2017 10:58 am

PalmerWoodrow wrote:A slider-style control makes much more sense in a GUI. A circular control is cumbersome to operate with a mouse and cursor.
Audio Plugins within Resolve, for example, allow parameter adjustment with the mouse hovered over the virtual control (e.g. EQ Band Frequency) and using the mouse scroll wheel.

Perhaps, implementing this functionality application wide (i.e. Clip EQ, Mixer channel fader, Mixer Dynamics Processor, et cetera) would alleviate some of the difficulty in adjusting circular controls via the mouse.
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Reynaud Venter

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Re: Fairlight Oddities

PostWed Sep 20, 2017 2:41 pm

PalmerWoodrow wrote:But what if you want to enter an exact value, perhaps repeatedly across multiple tracks? It's a text field, so it should function as one.
The other option of course is to select the Audio Track and open the Inspector.

Image

You can double click the Gain value and enter a custom value. There is also a handy reset to unity gain button provided.

Alternatively, drag over the Track Gain value while holding the left mouse button, to change the value in 0.20 increments.

Very small mouse movements will adjust in smaller 0.10 increments.
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Tony Lazzerini

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Re: Fairlight Oddities

PostWed Sep 20, 2017 5:45 pm

Total noob, so I may just be doing something wrong, but:

To record from an audio device in the Fairlight page.

Patch your audio input device (USB mic in my case) to a timeline track, then arm the timeline track.

Hit record.

Timeline colors red where recording is supposed to take place. Hit stop. However:

Nothing is recorded. Capture folder shows a file one frame long. Timeline shows nothing.

Using Media Composer with the exact same hardware setup, audio records fine. Audio created by Media Composer can be dragged into the media pool and plays fine.

So what am I doing wrong - I've followed the tutorial exactly.

Tony
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Jim Simon

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Re: Fairlight Oddities

PostWed Sep 20, 2017 7:55 pm

Glenn Venghaus wrote:You never mess with the numeric display.


I prefer to, myself. Entering values is...more precise.
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Jim Simon

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Re: Fairlight Oddities

PostWed Sep 20, 2017 8:00 pm

Reynaud Venter wrote:The other option of course is to select the Audio Track and open the Inspector.


A valid option...for now. But I would argue that in the relatively near future, every text field in the program that reports an adjustable parameter should accept keyboard entry.
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PalmerWoodrow

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Re: Fairlight Oddities

PostWed Sep 20, 2017 8:26 pm

Reynaud Venter wrote:Plugins within Resolve, for example, allow parameter adjustment with the mouse hovered over the virtual control (e.g. EQ Band Frequency) and using the mouse scroll wheel.


Which is great. Instead of misrepresenting the control in the GUI as a knob, we need a new standard to communicate the ability to change it with the mouse wheel. I think we have a pretty good standard to tell the user he can click and drag to change it, in the cursor that changes to <-> when you roll over the text field. That's pretty common between different applications.

I mainly object to the incorrect visual indication to the user that he's supposed to drag the cursor around in a circle, with no indication of what the correct way is. Maybe they should keep the circle but make it a display-only graphic that surrounds the text field, so you know not to try to turn it; but it still shows you where the current value resides within the total range. It will reflect the adjustments you make by clicking and dragging, spinning the mouse wheel, or turning the knob on your hardware console.
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Marc Wielage

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Re: Fairlight Oddities

PostThu Sep 21, 2017 3:57 am

Glenn Venghaus wrote:Doubleclick the fader knob to reset to zero. Common practice in any DAW. You never mess with the numeric display. I'ts just there for convenience.

I just discovered that one today and I totally agree. You can double-click on the EQ and compressor knobs in order to reset them to unity, but not the faders (at least from what I saw).

I also think wherever there is a numeric display, it should be possible to select that field and type in a number, if you needed to (say) reduce a level by exactly -6dB or something, vs. moving the fader to get 6.21dB.
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Glenn Venghaus

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Re: Fairlight Oddities

PostThu Sep 21, 2017 8:56 am

@marc,

So doublick the fader knob does not work for you ?
Works fine here and thought you where also on a mac so not os related.
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Jim Simon

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Re: Fairlight Oddities

PostWed Oct 04, 2017 4:30 pm

The mouse scroll wheel does not work on the Fairlight page in version 14.0.0.078 under Windows 10 Pro.
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Jim Simon

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Re: Fairlight Oddities

PostWed Oct 04, 2017 4:34 pm

The Mixer does not show all tracks by default. We have to manually expand it.

Additionally, the Mixer covers up the timeline. This is bad design. The Mixer should 'move' the timeline out of the way, much like the Meters do.
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Jim Simon

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Re: Fairlight Oddities

PostWed Oct 04, 2017 4:37 pm

The Mixer meters are set to Pre-Fader. These must be set to Post-Fader. As the only option, or as one option, doesn't matter. But Pre-Fader as the only option is not workable. We already have that in the Meters section. We must have a Post-Fader meter in the Mixer.
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Jim Simon

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Re: Fairlight Oddities

PostFri Nov 10, 2017 8:41 pm

So here's another weird thing in Fairlight. Whenever I cut a clip with an audio transition at the end of the clip, Fairlight moves the front half that transition to the new cut point.

The transitions on the Edit page are as they were before the cut. The weirdness only shows on the Fairlight page. But that weirdness does regulate audio behavior.

Steps to reproduce.

1. Add two clips to the timeline.
2. Add an audio transition between them.
3. Make a cut on the first clip.
4. Go to the Fairlight page.

Currently using Studio 14.0.1 on Windows 10 Pro (1703).
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Jim Simon

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Re: Fairlight Oddities

PostFri Nov 10, 2017 9:41 pm

Found another bug.

The Increase Audio Level keyboard shortcut does not work on the Fairlight page.
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Irakly Shanidze

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No separate channel control anymore

PostFri Nov 10, 2017 9:52 pm

Well, to be precise, the only thing that can be done to a channel without affecting other channel(s) in a track is fade-in/fade-out.

I just encountered a tiny problem, which could be fixed in 12.5 in two seconds: recording to BM Video Assist 4K with one channel fed via XLR and the other via HDMI (yeah, i know, i should have brought two XLR microphones), I ended up with a stereo track with a 0.25 sec time shift between channels. I do not see an obvious way to fix it now, except copying both channels into a new track, selectively disable opposite channels in both tracks and then align the remaining channels. This is madness :)

The problem in more detail and screenshots are here:

viewtopic.php?f=21&t=66635
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Charles Bennett

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Re: Fairlight Oddities

PostFri Nov 10, 2017 10:19 pm

In Windows double clicking on the fader in both the Edit and Fairlight pages resets it to unity and the scroll wheel controls plug-in knobs on the Fairlight page, you don't have to "drag the cursor around in a circle". You can also double click on any numeric boxes in a plug-in and enter the value of your choice, all normal DAW practice. As to sliders on plug-ins, many are modeled on real hardware so the knobs are what you expect to see and use. Changing Knobs to sliders would mean all the plug-ins would have to have their GUIs changed. Something that is unlikely to happen. As a Pro Tools user for 23 years, give me knobs any day. I agree with what Reynaud has to say on the matter.
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PalmerWoodrow

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Re: Fairlight Oddities

PostFri Nov 10, 2017 11:29 pm

Charles Bennett wrote:scroll wheel controls plug-in knobs on the Fairlight page, you don't have to "drag the cursor around in a circle"


Then why are the depicted that way? As you note:

Charles Bennett wrote:many are modeled on real hardware so the knobs are what you expect to see and use.


And how are real knobs turned? You grasp their perimeter and turn them in a circle. Doing that with a mouse cursor is cumbersome. That's why we need some visual indication to the user of how the mouse can be used to adjust the value. What's the problem with that?

Charles Bennett wrote:Changing Knobs to sliders would mean all the plug-ins would have to have their GUIs changed.


Not necessarily. It depends on the plug-in API. With many, the plug-in doesn't draw the UI; it merely lists the types of controls it needs and the host application draws them. But I didn't say they should all change to sliders anyway. They should just indicate to the user how the mouse is really supposed to be used to adjust the value. If we're not supposed to roll the thing around in a circle, then the control might as well be a circular pie graph with something more informative in the middle.

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Charles Bennett

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Re: Fairlight Oddities

PostSat Nov 11, 2017 10:35 am

One could probably argue the merits of either for ever. I see the point you are making though. A lot of the knob preference is historical as many of us come from using consoles where we were used to scanning the knob positions by eye and knew the effect of a certain position. DAWs like Pro Tools copied this form to make the transition to digital for us analogue oldies much easier. ;)
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Jean Claude

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Re: UI problems

PostSat Nov 11, 2017 10:43 am

PalmerWoodrow wrote:I was trying to track down a panning problem, so I went to the Fairlight page.

The first strange thing is that it showed no audio in any of my audio tracks.

As I was hunting around for potentially redundant panning controls, I noticed that the controls in the track header area are all unlabeled and lack ToolTips. I can guess what mute and solo are, but the others? The numeric field can't be typed in, so if you change it, you have to fiddle with the mouse to return it to zero.

Not good, guys. Look at this:

The attachment Fairlight.png is no longer available


Oh, and a tangential beef about this forum: When I upload a graphic and then press "place inline", that means PLACE IT INLINE. Not at the top of the message. Please fix that too.


Hi,

"Can't Type in this field"


It's for automation.

automation.jpg
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John Paines

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Re: Fairlight Oddities

PostSat Nov 11, 2017 2:12 pm

BMD is unlikely to want to depart from the industry norm (knobs), but I wish values could be dynamically reduced or increased using the keyboard alone, for example, right/left cursor, rather than fighting the mouse and frequently losing. Same with Resolve sliders, in or out Fairlight.

It would be so much easier, just holding down a repeating key.
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PalmerWoodrow

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Re: Fairlight Oddities

PostSun Nov 12, 2017 11:32 am

Charles Bennett wrote:One could probably argue the merits of either for ever. I see the point you are making though. A lot of the knob preference is historical as many of us come from using consoles


I get it. There's definitely a good medium between the recent fad known as "flat" UI graphics, which offers almost no demarcation of what's a control and what's merely static text or a decoration; and overdone "skeuomorphism," where you have ridiculous photo-realistic depictions of real-world objects that detract from their usability (and often don't make sense). Apple descended into this with asinine "leather" and "felt" textures in their UIs until going way, way too far in the other direction.

Sadly, most GUI controls were nailed in the '90s, but designers have regressed from those standards in a desperate effort to be different. They've forgotten how and why GUIs work. Buttons had simple shadows that indicated whether they were on (depressed) or off (sticking out). Tabbed dialogs were depicted properly, where the selected tab's entire area was shaded and clearly enclosed all the controls that were grouped together; if you want to see a poor and half-assed implementation of tabs, look at Resolve's render panel...

And this could go on and on too...
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Jim Simon

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Re: Fairlight Oddities

PostTue Nov 14, 2017 8:54 pm

Jim Simon wrote:Whenever I cut a clip with an audio transition at the end of the clip, Fairlight moves the front half that transition to the new cut point.


This one appears to be corrected in 14.1.
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Jim Simon

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Re: Fairlight Oddities

PostTue Nov 14, 2017 8:55 pm

Marc Wielage wrote:You can double-click on the EQ and compressor knobs in order to reset them to unity, but not the faders.


This one also seems to be corrected in 14.1.
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Jim Simon

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Re: Fairlight Oddities

PostTue Nov 14, 2017 8:57 pm

Jim Simon wrote:The Mixer meters are set to Pre-Fader. These must be set to Post-Fader.


Thankfully, also fixed in 14.1.

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