1920x1080 DNxHD footage displays as 4:3

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Ignacio de La Cierva

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1920x1080 DNxHD footage displays as 4:3

PostSun Dec 10, 2017 10:56 pm

Hi

I'm working with dozens of video-selfies recorded by different people, each one dirferent format, resolution, codec... so I've set a timeline to conform them all to a 1920x1080 canvas, basic correction (they all came hiper-saturated), and export a DNxHD 100/85/80 8bit file.


Then, when importing those clips to Resolve, every single one appears stretched to 4:3 format and, of course, If I drop them to a normal 1080p 16:9 timeline, they come stretched until I re-escale.

- I've checked export is 1920x1080 square pixel.
- Davinci Inspector says they are 1920x1080.
- Quicktime player reads them perfect, 16:9, it's only Resolve reading them wrong.
- Clips rendered by fusion have the same issue.

Any clue?
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Ignacio de La Cierva

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Re: 1920x1080 DNxHD footage displays as 4:3

PostSun Dec 10, 2017 11:01 pm

DNxHR HQ works fine.

I kept testing and found DNxHD 145/120/115 8 bit works fine. I'll repeat all renders to that bitrate, and problem solved...

...but still wondering why DNxHD 100/85/80 is read as 4:3 by Resolve.
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PeterMoretti

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Re: 1920x1080 DNxHD footage displays as 4:3

PostSun Dec 10, 2017 11:10 pm

If you provide a link to one of the files, I'll test it out on my computer.
Resolve 14.2 Studio. GTX 970 with GeForce 388.31 driver. Desktop Video 10.9.7. Intensity Shuttle USB 3.0. Windows 10 Pro.
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Ignacio de La Cierva

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Re: 1920x1080 DNxHD footage displays as 4:3

PostSun Dec 10, 2017 11:32 pm

Hmmm I deleted them all and just launched the new render. It takes two-three hours.

It's past midnight here. Tomorrow I'll post a test file, thank you Peter.
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: 1920x1080 DNxHD footage displays as 4:3

PostSun Dec 10, 2017 11:44 pm

Ignacio de La Cierva wrote:DNxHR HQ works fine.

I kept testing and found DNxHD 145/120/115 8 bit works fine. I'll repeat all renders to that bitrate, and problem solved...

...but still wondering why DNxHD 100/85/80 is read as 4:3 by Resolve.


Those variants are stored as 1440x1080, so you don't want aspect for them being 1:1, but 4:3. This will give you DAR as 16:9. Sound like a bug because I assume any DNxHD decoder implementation should do it automatically.
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dariobigi

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Re: 1920x1080 DNxHD footage displays as 4:3

PostMon Dec 11, 2017 2:28 pm

Check your input scaling presets. Scale with crop might be preferable. Option-Save in the settings window to keep it open to try variations quickly.


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Ignacio de La Cierva

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Re: 1920x1080 DNxHD footage displays as 4:3

PostMon Dec 11, 2017 3:07 pm

PeterMoretti wrote:If you provide a link to one of the files, I'll test it out on my computer.



Here we go. Link to pack with the same file exported to DNxHD 85 and 145, and a screen capture of how I see them in Resolve's Media page and timelines.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1k1cXha ... sp=sharing
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Ignacio de La Cierva

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Re: 1920x1080 DNxHD footage displays as 4:3

PostMon Dec 11, 2017 3:12 pm

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:
Ignacio de La Cierva wrote:DNxHR HQ works fine.

I kept testing and found DNxHD 145/120/115 8 bit works fine. I'll repeat all renders to that bitrate, and problem solved...

...but still wondering why DNxHD 100/85/80 is read as 4:3 by Resolve.


Those variants are stored as 1440x1080, so you don't want aspect for them being 1:1, but 4:3. This will give you DAR as 16:9. Sound like a bug because I assume any DNxHD decoder implementation should do it automatically.


Don't know. Never saw that documented.

Both Premiere and Quicktime player read the file as 1920x1080p and play it 16_9.
Resolve inspector says it's 1920x1080p too, but the DNxHD 100 renders 4:3, while the DNxHD145 plays correct 16:9

I must mention I'm still under Windows 7 64, and I already have some issues related to QT encoding. For instance, h264/mp4 encoding stopped working when I upgraded DR 12.5 to 14. As soon as I finish this project I'm switching to Windows10. That might be the problem.

Thanks!
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: 1920x1080 DNxHD footage displays as 4:3

PostMon Dec 11, 2017 4:55 pm

It's documented, it's part of DNxHD whitepaper.

Sounds like a bug. Report to BM.
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Jean Claude

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Re: 1920x1080 DNxHD footage displays as 4:3

PostMon Dec 11, 2017 6:40 pm

Hi,
(from DNXHD white paper)
Resolution Avid DNxHD 100 Frame Size 1920 x 1080* Color Space 4:2:2
* = Sub-sampled to 1440x1080
Maybe (maybe...we never know...) try working with clip attribute on media tab :
pixel_aspect_ratio.jpg
pixel_aspect_ratio.jpg (47.06 KiB) Viewed 495 times

(maybe...we never know...)
Windows 10 PRO X64 | DaVinci Resolve Studio 14.2.0.012 | Fusion Studio 9.0.2
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: 1920x1080 DNxHD footage displays as 4:3

PostMon Dec 11, 2017 11:56 pm

DVCPRO uses the same technique (stores data as 1440x1080).
DVCPRO setting is applying 4x3 pixel aspect ratio.

1440x180*4/3=1920x1080, but this should be done by Resolve DNxHD decoder automatically.
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PeterMoretti

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Re: 1920x1080 DNxHD footage displays as 4:3

PostTue Dec 12, 2017 8:29 am

From the Avid DNxHD white paper:

"Avid DNxHD 100: For optimal visual impact where workflow speed and storage capacity are important factors. Suitable replacement for DV100 compression and offers lower processing overhead than AVC-Intra 50/100. Sub-samples the video raster from 1920 to 1440 or from 1280 to 960 to reduce compression artifacts, providing a balance of reduced compressed bandwidth and visual quality."

I tested out your files, and indeed they behave as described. I believe in Media Composer, there is "TR" "Thin Raster" next to the DNxHD 100 codec.

Also, btw, DVCPro HD does not *always* have a raster dimension of 1440 x 1080, it also depends on progressive vs interlaced and frame rate.

But I can confirm what you are seeing and what's been said immediately above.
Resolve 14.2 Studio. GTX 970 with GeForce 388.31 driver. Desktop Video 10.9.7. Intensity Shuttle USB 3.0. Windows 10 Pro.
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: 1920x1080 DNxHD footage displays as 4:3

PostThu Dec 14, 2017 2:08 pm

PeterMoretti wrote:Also, btw, DVCPro HD does not *always* have a raster dimension of 1440 x 1080, it also depends on progressive vs interlaced and frame rate.


Yes, but it's never 1920x1080.
It never uses 1:1 pixel aspect, as every variant is stored at lower than displayed resolution.
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Ignacio de La Cierva

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Re: 1920x1080 DNxHD footage displays as 4:3

PostTue Dec 26, 2017 5:11 pm

hey, thanks everyone. Very good to know all this about the inner behavior of DNx codecs.

I was using it as a pretty_good intermediate format, and I'll keep doing it except for the few cases I need pixel-by pixel precission with no re-scaling. Usually micro-detailed CGI stuff. Or may be for those incredibly sharp shots, when you nail focus with your best lens and it simply rocks. It's a pitty to lower that shapness one level because of re-scaling. Hmmm.. I'll do some tests asap. I'm on a low budget workstation so, unfortunately, I cant hold all footage and intermediates uncompressed.

Thank you.
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Marc Wielage

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Re: 1920x1080 DNxHD footage displays as 4:3

PostWed Dec 27, 2017 1:14 am

Ignacio de La Cierva wrote:I was using it as a pretty_good intermediate format, and I'll keep doing it except for the few cases I need pixel-by pixel precision with no re-scaling. Usually micro-detailed CGI stuff. Or may be for those incredibly sharp shots, when you nail focus with your best lens and it simply rocks. It's a pity to lower that sharpness one level because of re-scaling.

Is this really a factor with a cellphone video? I just accept the limitations that it's a crappy camera and move on.
marc wielage, csi • colorist/post consultant • daVinci Resolve Certified Trainer
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waltervolpatto

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Re: 1920x1080 DNxHD footage displays as 4:3

PostWed Dec 27, 2017 3:48 am

Marc Wielage wrote:
Ignacio de La Cierva wrote:I was using it as a pretty_good intermediate format, and I'll keep doing it except for the few cases I need pixel-by pixel precision with no re-scaling. Usually micro-detailed CGI stuff. Or may be for those incredibly sharp shots, when you nail focus with your best lens and it simply rocks. It's a pity to lower that sharpness one level because of re-scaling.

Is this really a factor with a cellphone video? I just accept the limitations that it's a crappy camera and move on.


Iphony 110 is 24K??!!!!!!!???!!!

Why this software make 'writing look like crap????
Walter Volpatto - C.S.I.
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Inb4YouCanJustColorComments: yes you can, good luck with that.
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Ignacio de La Cierva

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Re: 1920x1080 DNxHD footage displays as 4:3

PostWed Dec 27, 2017 11:34 am

Marc Wielage wrote:
Ignacio de La Cierva wrote:I was using it as a pretty_good intermediate format, and I'll keep doing it except for the few cases I need pixel-by pixel precision with no re-scaling. Usually micro-detailed CGI stuff. Or may be for those incredibly sharp shots, when you nail focus with your best lens and it simply rocks. It's a pity to lower that sharpness one level because of re-scaling.

Is this really a factor with a cellphone video? I just accept the limitations that it's a crappy camera and move on.


LOL The video I was finishing included lots of video-selfies inserts, and the frame I sent to you had one of them pretty big on screen, but the background is pure hisgh resolution composition, and most of the video is also HD or UHD.

What I meant is, even when modern re-scaling filters have improved so much, re-scaling will always be re-scaling. The loss of sharpness is subtle, yes, as subtle and tolerable as the difference between a $600 and a $1800 lens in the camera. Or the difference between a slooooow full sampled antialiasing vray render with high resolution textures and a much faster one.

It's good to know this. Yesterday I rendered the final version of that piece. Delivery and storage format will be h264 lossless. I've rendered TGA sequence as intermediate file before handbraking, instead of DNx I used to. That intermediate will be deleted tonight so, who cares the 250 GB?
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: 1920x1080 DNxHD footage displays as 4:3

PostWed Dec 27, 2017 11:44 am

Not sure if you really understand whole thing correctly.
Only few, low bitrate DNxHD modes are re-scaled. All others keep native HD resolution. Just use higher bitrate mode and it won't be re-scaled.

When you create h264 lossless master remember that some apps won't be able to read it as not all have h264 decoder which handles lossless mode. Resolve non-paid version is probably one of them. Another thing is that your final master is probably 8bit only (as far as I understand TGA is 8bit only).
You seams to be taking very strange routes when creating archival master.
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Ignacio de La Cierva

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Re: 1920x1080 DNxHD footage displays as 4:3

PostWed Dec 27, 2017 12:29 pm

OK.

I'll take a look to the DNxHD and HR papers and make a table of specs, just to be sure of what I'm doing when using them.

Yes, my master is 8bit. Please consider I'm a low budget generalist, storing a 30Gb lossless master is kind of luxury. I keep only some very valuable renders with 10bit depth, and the best RAWS from the BMCC.

- The delivery pack includes the lossless+PCM file and two playable mp4's, at 25 and 8 Mbs, AAC.

- I'm using Resolve Studio, licence bundled with the BMCC.

- About lossless h264 as storage file, you have a point. I can read it now, but it might not be so easy in the future. I can just create standard h264 files with no bitrate limitation. That's more than enough for most of my products. Then, High bitrate DNxHD or HR for selected projects.

Thanks a lot for your advice!
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Ignacio de La Cierva

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Re: 1920x1080 DNxHD footage displays as 4:3

PostWed Dec 27, 2017 3:58 pm

I had this list in wikipedia. So easy... :oops:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_A ... esolutions

Well, I already have my glorious TGA sequence rendered. 444 uncompressed and, due to this conversation, figuring out the best storage format.

- TGA seq: 280GB. (8MB/fr)
Unthinkable for this low budget project with infinitesimal odds of revision or re-use.

- DNxHD185: 32 GB.

- JPEG 100% seq: 62GB (1.7MB/fr):

- JPEG 99% seq: 30GB (800KB/fr)

- H264 with no bitrate limit : 13GB.

I'm considering he JPG sequence for some projects because I've read Quicktime for windows is discontinued. If that's true, we'll probably have decades of legacy support, but eventually it'll be out of business, as any other container or codec. Last year I had to read a 1999 job and luckily I found the Matrox MJPEG decoder to read that master. But who knows how long it will be so easy.

I think JPG sequence + WAV audio is the most time-proof storage format. I'm again suprised with the exponential difference in JPEG sizes. 100% quality doubles 99% in file size, with the xnencoder I'm using for the tests.

Very important projects can be stored full uncompressed, it's part of the budget, for my accounting philosohy. As most of you, I decide the storage format and dedicated HD space, depending on many factors: importance, re-usability, odds of revison...

In fact, I usually prefer to store and keep re-usable intermediates or alpha-layer sequences than a huge master.

But, for most of my "deliver and forget" projects, h264 limitless is more than enough.

(sorry the long post... just thinking out loud while waiting for encoding ;)
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waltervolpatto

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Re: 1920x1080 DNxHD footage displays as 4:3

PostWed Dec 27, 2017 4:22 pm

Dnx175 10 is perfectly fine both for work and long term storage: movies and tv productions (HBO/Netflix) are often done in this way.
Walter Volpatto - C.S.I.
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Inb4YouCanJustColorComments: yes you can, good luck with that.
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PeterMoretti

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Re: 1920x1080 DNxHD footage displays as 4:3

PostWed Dec 27, 2017 10:04 pm

Walter, not to highjack the thread. Of course I agree that higher bit rate DNx codecs look great and are more than good enough for the OP's situation.

But commenting on what you wrote, FWIU, Netflix is now requiring all camera originals, and is essentially archiving everything.
Resolve 14.2 Studio. GTX 970 with GeForce 388.31 driver. Desktop Video 10.9.7. Intensity Shuttle USB 3.0. Windows 10 Pro.
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waltervolpatto

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Re: 1920x1080 DNxHD footage displays as 4:3

PostWed Dec 27, 2017 10:26 pm

PeterMoretti wrote:Walter, not to highjack the thread. Of course I agree that higher bit rate DNx codecs look great and are more than good enough for the OP's situation.

But commenting on what you wrote, FWIU, Netflix is now requiring all camera originals, and is essentially archiving everything.


FWIK Not for the finals product...
Certainly i saw movies done for theatrical that started from arri prores and AFIAK game of thrones used the same strategy.
Walter Volpatto - C.S.I.
Digital Intermediate Colorist
Fotokem, Burbank. USA
www.fotokem.com
www.coloristsociety.com

Inb4YouCanJustColorComments: yes you can, good luck with that.

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