DOLBY HDR and CMU SDR view improvement

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waltervolpatto

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DOLBY HDR and CMU SDR view improvement

PostWed Feb 07, 2018 3:08 pm

With more hdr content releases every day in dolby vision, there are two things we need:

software CMU: the ability to simulate the cmu functionality without the hardware and be able to export from

Viewing of HDR and software CMU SDR at the same time: using a stereo strategy, be able to playout HDR 444 on link a/b of a decklink and CMUSDR oon the second link to serve both monitors.

Both link should have independent standard possible: you might want 444 12bit full on hdr, and 422 video on sdr
Last edited by waltervolpatto on Fri Feb 23, 2018 5:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: HDR and SDR view improvement

PostWed Feb 07, 2018 3:13 pm

Well, it's up to Dolby to do it or license.
As for today after so many years Dolby Digital plugin for some software cost more than software itself :)
Dolby loves their patents and exclusivity :)

Monitoring requirement should be fairly easy to implement.
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waltervolpatto

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Re: HDR and SDR view improvement

PostThu Feb 08, 2018 4:58 am

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:Well, it's up to Dolby to do it or license.
As for today after so many years Dolby Digital plugin for some software cost more than software itself :)
Dolby loves their patents and exclusivity :)

Monitoring requirement should be fairly easy to implement.


other manufacturer can do it (Mistika....)
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: HDR and SDR view improvement

PostThu Feb 08, 2018 9:27 am

If Dolby happily licensed it then I assume it may come 1 day to Resolve.
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Marc Wielage

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Re: HDR and SDR view improvement

PostThu Feb 08, 2018 11:07 am

That's a great idea. But it's a good question whether Dolby wants to license that out, plus what the costs would be.
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: HDR and SDR view improvement

PostThu Feb 08, 2018 11:41 am

There always could be a plugin which you license separately, like easyDCP. It will probably cost more than Resolve itself knowing Dolby :)

If it's for Dolby Vision then there is no other way of implementing than going over Dolby and licensing.
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Cary Knoop

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Re: HDR and SDR view improvement

PostWed Feb 14, 2018 8:47 pm

I think this functionality is not only useful for Dolby Vision.

I think to be able to master HDR and SDR on different screens and being able to save the SDR grading difference as a fallback LUT would be very useful.
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: HDR and SDR view improvement

PostWed Feb 14, 2018 8:49 pm

Optimal HDR to SDR is not as easy as applying "global" LUT- this is the problem. It has to be a dynamic (per scene) processing, so much more complicated than simple LUT.
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Re: HDR and SDR view improvement

PostWed Feb 14, 2018 8:56 pm

An inexpensive software CMU isn’t entirely out the question.

Dolby surprisingly removed the $10k hardware RMU requirement for Dolby Atmos with the $299 Atmos Production Suite software.
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Re: HDR and SDR view improvement

PostWed Feb 14, 2018 9:30 pm

No, I just mentioned that it's not as easy as simple LUT.

Now we need Dolby Vision 299$ Resolve plugin :)
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Re: HDR and SDR view improvement

PostWed Feb 14, 2018 9:47 pm

Hmm... what is this?

Code: Select all
"Key Tools from Dolby

Dolby Vision Professional Software Tools

Content-Mapping Unit (CMU) software for real-time monitoring of Rec. 709 and other targets
CM Offline software tool for rendering out Rec. 709 and other deliverables
Mezzinator software tool for creating Dolby Vision mezzanine file"


https://www.dolby.com/us/en/technologie ... onals.html
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Nathan Morgan

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Re: HDR and SDR view improvement

PostWed Feb 14, 2018 11:31 pm

There was some rumors of this functionality mentioned at the BM conference this past week. I would not be surprised if we saw a software CMU announced at NAB for version 15.
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Re: HDR and SDR view improvement

PostThu Feb 15, 2018 2:44 am

Cary Knoop wrote:I think this functionality is not only useful for Dolby Vision.

I think to be able to master HDR and SDR on different screens and being able to save the SDR grading difference as a fallback LUT would be very useful.


SDR and HDR output at the same time have been available since v12.5 and even better in v14.
Walters request is specifically for the Dolby Vision CMU as a software implementation rather than needed a second computer external to Resolve.
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: HDR and SDR view improvement

PostThu Feb 15, 2018 12:13 pm

Walter wants independent HDR on SDI A and SDR on SDI B of the same card- this is not possible in current Resolve, is it?
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Erik Wittbusch

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Re: HDR and SDR view improvement

PostThu Feb 15, 2018 3:15 pm

Yes, it is through 3D stereo mode on the bigger Deckink cards only.

It's all covered in the manual.
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Re: HDR and SDR view improvement

PostThu Feb 15, 2018 5:57 pm

Cool, Walter needs to read manual :)
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Re: HDR and SDR view improvement

PostThu Feb 15, 2018 6:24 pm

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:Cool, Walter needs to read manual :)


LOL... as if....

no, I don't want a stereo timeline. I want ONE timeline, output to the main monitor HDR dual link, 3g, whatever.
Then the [software CMU] output to the other link, SDR, HDR dual link, 3g, whatever.
Both live.

the stereo timeline it is a horrid workaround. AND if you actually read the manual is only for HDR 10 OR HLG, NOT dolby
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Re: HDR and SDR view improvement

PostThu Feb 15, 2018 6:29 pm

I agree- there is no need for any stereo here. As you said - it's massive work around.
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Re: HDR and SDR view improvement

PostTue Feb 20, 2018 4:48 pm

I would want to see something like this:

mutipledestinations.jpg
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Re: HDR and SDR view improvement

PostWed Feb 21, 2018 5:44 am

I like it!
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Re: HDR and SDR view improvement

PostWed Feb 21, 2018 9:30 am

This is very logical and Nuke a like.
Then each card can be independent. Also if you have 1 hihg-end card with 2 outputs you should be able to configure them independently and have them as Decklink1A, Decklink1B. You should be also able to give cards "names" in settings, so it's all nice and shiny.
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Erik Wittbusch

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Re: HDR and SDR view improvement

PostWed Feb 21, 2018 10:14 am

Sure, I'd like something like this, too.

But meanwhile there are workarounds. At least fot HDR10 and HLG anyway.

The Stereo feature doesn't mean you need to use a 3D stereo source but let's you output two different signals.

Did not mean to offend anybody.
It's just suggesting what's available.

Still, Walter has enough experience to not cry immediately... ;)
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Re: HDR and SDR view improvement

PostFri Feb 23, 2018 5:57 am

Erik Wittbusch wrote:Sure, I'd like something like this, too.

But meanwhile there are workarounds. At least fot HDR10 and HLG anyway.

The Stereo feature doesn't mean you need to use a 3D stereo source but let's you output two different signals.

Did not mean to offend anybody.
It's just suggesting what's available.

Still, Walter has enough experience to not cry immediately... ;)


I'm in Dolby... not hlg/hdt10....
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Re: HDR and SDR view improvement

PostFri Feb 23, 2018 5:59 am

Btw. Since the very first post I'm specifying Dolby HDR with CMU.

None of the workarounds address that. I know what's possible in HDR10/HLG. But unfortunately is not what needed..

(Netflix/ Disney docet).
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Re: DOLBY HDR and CMU SDR view improvement

PostFri Feb 23, 2018 1:01 pm

Sorry Walter.

The Dolby Vision thing is another story as Dolby must allow for anything official integrated in Resolve.
It would be a really cool feature, but honestly, I don't see it coming.
Resolve is more and more moving towards an all-in-one-postproduction solution in my eyes.

I do miss some serious HDR integration tools which are needed.
Let's hope for the best!
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Re: DOLBY HDR and CMU SDR view improvement

PostFri Feb 23, 2018 1:26 pm

Yep, but nothing stops BM to have this in Linux version only (where it most likely belongs anyway).
There is no way you will get it in free version or even Studio as Dolby licensing will cost quite a lot.
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Re: DOLBY HDR and CMU SDR view improvement

PostFri Feb 23, 2018 11:04 pm

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:Yep, but nothing stops BM to have this in Linux version only (where it most likely belongs anyway).
There is no way you will get it in free version or even Studio as Dolby licensing will cost quite a lot.


I think you will see this sooner than later. I would guess that you will still need to purchase the dolby lic. but the CMU process will take place inside of DaVinci. I would be very surprised if we don't see this announced at NAB this year.

Dolby wants to make this process easier so that they can push out more titles. It's a win win for everyone to remove the need for an external CMU.
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Re: DOLBY HDR and CMU SDR view improvement

PostSat Feb 24, 2018 12:45 am

Nathan Morgan wrote:Dolby wants to make this process easier so that they can push out more titles. It's a win win for everyone to remove the need for an external CMU.

I won't be surprised if we see a demo like this at NAB in April. When this will actually ship... I dunno.

I think there will also be "more affordable" options for Dolby Vision grading displays at NAB, but we're still talking 5-figures ($15K-$25K).
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Re: DOLBY HDR and CMU SDR view improvement

PostSat Feb 24, 2018 1:11 am

There are only few companies which can make good enough panel, so this is most likely stay at fairly high price for some time. Those companies seems to lost interest in making such a panels as there is not much money to be made in this area.
Any "new company" which would like to fill this gap will have to invest fortune to start, so again price will be high. There is a need for some real technology break through to make things cheaper. OLED is not easy/cheap technology.
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Re: DOLBY HDR and CMU SDR view improvement

PostSat Feb 24, 2018 8:11 am

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:Any "new company" which would like to fill this gap will have to invest fortune to start, so again price will be high.There is a need of some real technology break through to make things cheaper. OLED is not easy/cheap technology.

Also, the experts say that OLED will not be capable of reproducing over 1000 nits, so they're going to have to go to some other new kind of technology for 4000+ nit HDR.

To me, I think the fact that we can get an OLED panel right now that can be accurately calibrated to Rec709 and cost under $2000 is bloody amazing. I think people have to take a step back and consider than 10 years ago, that would've cost you far more than $20,000. Progress is happening.
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Re: DOLBY HDR and CMU SDR view improvement

PostSat Feb 24, 2018 11:15 am

There is progress, but today Rec.709 is not benchmark anymore as it' very old spec. Today 4K nits HDR or Rec.2020 is benchmark and we still far away.
Good thing is that more and more consumer screens can fairy well reproduce Rec.709. It took ages though to get to this stage.
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Re: DOLBY HDR and CMU SDR view improvement

PostThu Mar 15, 2018 12:00 pm

MTI Cortext is getting some DV support:

Dolby Vision* - Level 1 Analysis, Native CMU, Metadata Editing

so I assume this will come to more apps.
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Re: DOLBY HDR and CMU SDR view improvement

PostThu Mar 15, 2018 1:39 pm

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:MTI Cortext is getting some DV support:

Dolby Vision* - Level 1 Analysis, Native CMU, Metadata Editing

so I assume this will come to more apps.


Yes, i saw some at nab last year, but is useless if you need it in your color corrector.
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Re: DOLBY HDR and CMU SDR view improvement

PostThu Mar 15, 2018 3:15 pm

It just means that Dolby is not trying to keep their precious algorithms for themselves, which suggest Resolve implementation is just a matter of time.
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Re: DOLBY HDR and CMU SDR view improvement

PostThu Mar 15, 2018 5:18 pm

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:It just means that Dolby is not trying to keep their precious algorithms for themselves, which suggest Resolve implementation is just a matter of time.


True that!
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Re: DOLBY HDR and CMU SDR view improvement

PostThu Mar 15, 2018 6:16 pm

NAB is near...
Who knows what they do.

But I'd like some pretty basic issues sorted out before adding even more features, to be honest.
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Re: DOLBY HDR and CMU SDR view improvement

PostThu Mar 15, 2018 8:29 pm

I agree- Resolve needs polishing as code is getting bit messy. To many "problems" are there. Reminds me Premiere which at some point got about unusable. Likely Adobe realised it and started making it better.
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Re: DOLBY HDR and CMU SDR view improvement

PostFri Mar 16, 2018 1:31 am

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:It just means that Dolby is not trying to keep their precious algorithms for themselves, which suggest Resolve implementation is just a matter of time.

Actually, at the Dolby HDR demo at the Blackmagic Design Expo in LA last month, Dolby spokespeople disclosed they are working with Blackmagic on the idea of incorporating some Dolby Vision features within Resolve. When, how, and how much this will cost... remains to be seen.
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Re: DOLBY HDR and CMU SDR view improvement

PostFri Mar 16, 2018 3:57 am

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:I agree- Resolve needs polishing as code is getting bit messy. To many "problems" are there. Reminds me Premiere which at some point got about unusable. Likely Adobe realised it and started making it better.

But they also have to stay in the race.

I think they should present a flexible and integrated solution to handle various HDR style grades together with metadata based fallback mechanisms for SDR, also a 10 bit HEVC rendering option should not be delayed much longer.
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Re: DOLBY HDR and CMU SDR view improvement

PostThu Apr 12, 2018 6:22 am

So it looks like the CMU was integrated in 15. Has anyone had a chance to try it out?

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Re: DOLBY HDR and CMU SDR view improvement

PostThu Apr 12, 2018 8:54 am

Nathan Morgan wrote:So it looks like the CMU was integrated in 15. Has anyone had a chance to try it out?\

It's there, but the v15 Feature List says you have to pay for a license from Dolby in order to use it.
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Re: DOLBY HDR and CMU SDR view improvement

PostThu Apr 12, 2018 9:09 am

Marc Wielage wrote:It's there, but the v15 Feature List says you have to pay for a license from Dolby in order to use it.
"Dolby Vision has two levels of metadata: i) Analysis metadata (Level 1), which is generated automatically by the project and image parameters; and ii) Artistic trim metadata (Level 2), which is set by the colorist to adjust the Dolby Vision mapped image to a target that is different from the mastering display (Rec. 709 as an example). Generating Dolby Vision with L1 analysis metadata is available without additional licensing from Dolby. Artistic trim metadata is created with the Dolby vision palette in DaVinci Resolve. The Dolby Vision Palette requires a separate license from Dolby." (Page 1-65 of the Manual)

Out of interest, what does the hardware CMU provide that the software CMU doesn't?
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Re: DOLBY HDR and CMU SDR view improvement

PostThu Apr 12, 2018 9:17 am

Marc Wielage wrote:
Nathan Morgan wrote:So it looks like the CMU was integrated in 15. Has anyone had a chance to try it out?\

It's there, but the v15 Feature List says you have to pay for a license from Dolby in order to use it.


This was expected. Dolby solutions cost quite a lot. They are not going to give it 'away' cheaply. It's probably good few $K.
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Re: DOLBY HDR and CMU SDR view improvement

PostThu Apr 12, 2018 4:01 pm

Marc Wielage wrote:
Nathan Morgan wrote:So it looks like the CMU was integrated in 15. Has anyone had a chance to try it out?\

It's there, but the v15 Feature List says you have to pay for a license from Dolby in order to use it.


Are you sure? It kinda sounds like the CMU and the auto analysis are avalible to anyone with Studio and that the license just give you access to the trim controls. If that is the case it seems like a smart way to do it. Give Dolby Vision to the masses for free, but if you really want the ability to do a true trim pass introduce a paywall.

Looking forward to getting in front of my box to give it a shot, but until then was hoping someone might be playing around with it!
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Re: DOLBY HDR and CMU SDR view improvement

PostSun Apr 15, 2018 5:42 pm

waltervolpatto wrote:With more hdr content releases every day in dolby vision, there are two things we need:

software CMU: the ability to simulate the cmu functionality without the hardware and be able to export from

Viewing of HDR and software CMU SDR at the same time: using a stereo strategy, be able to playout HDR 444 on link a/b of a decklink and CMUSDR oon the second link to serve both monitors.

Both link should have independent standard possible: you might want 444 12bit full on hdr, and 422 video on sdr


The first wish is here: Dolby CMU software support in DR15

From DR15 New_Features_Guide:

"DR15 now support GPU-Accelerated Dolby VisionTM CMU Built-In (Studio Only)
"DaVinci Resolve 15 includes a GPU‐accelerated software version of the Dolby Vision CMU (Content Mapping Unit) box for doing Dolby Vision grading and finishing workflows right in DaVinci Resolve. This is enabled and set up in the Color Management panel of the Project Settings with the Enable Dolby Vision checkbox. Turning Dolby Vision on enables the Dolby Vision palette in the Color page.

Auto Analysis Available to All Studio Users
Resolve Studio enables anyone to generate Dolby Vision analysis metadata automatically. This metadata can be used to deliver Dolby Vision content and to render other HDR and SDR deliverables from the HDR grade that you’ve made.
Dolby Vision has two levels of metadata: i) Analysis metadata (Level 1), which is generated automatically by the project and image parameters; and ii) Artistic trim metadata (Level 2), which is set by the colorist to adjust the Dolby Vision mapped image to a target that is different from the mastering display (Rec. 709 as an example). Generating Dolby Vision with L1 analysis metadata is available without additional licensing from Dolby. Artistic trim metadata is created with the Dolby vision palette in DaVinci Resolve. The Dolby Vision Palette requires a separate license from Dolby."
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Re: DOLBY HDR and CMU SDR view improvement

PostSun Apr 15, 2018 10:40 pm

Yes i was aware of that.
That is not what I'm asking thou....
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Willian Aleman

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Re: DOLBY HDR and CMU SDR view improvement

PostSun Apr 15, 2018 10:55 pm

I'm sorry about that. I thought the Dolby MCU software addition in DR15 was answering part one of your original post.
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waltervolpatto

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Re: DOLBY HDR and CMU SDR view improvement

PostMon Apr 16, 2018 5:02 am

Willian Aleman wrote:I'm sorry about that. I thought the Dolby MCU software addition in DR15 was answering part one of your original post.


The main issue is to have both hdr and sdr playing at the same time, live, with trims and color live...
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Willian Aleman

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Re: DOLBY HDR and CMU SDR view improvement

PostTue Apr 17, 2018 2:12 am

I got it. And yes, the stereo feature for this purpose in DaVinci Resolve, as it says in the manual, it's more a "hack", a workaround than a feature. Let's see what the future is bringing.
Cary Knoop's suggestion around the nodes tree is a very elegant solution.
+1
Willian Aleman
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New York City
USA
Always willing to travel

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