SOLVED: Fundamental DR 14 bug report

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Piotr Wozniacki

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SOLVED: Fundamental DR 14 bug report

PostTue Mar 13, 2018 5:49 pm

I've lost enough time and effort to test and confirm beyond any doubt, that DR 14 has an inherent bug preventing full playback speed in the Color page when scopes are active. Neither my UHD@25p nor UHD@50p projects - even before any grading - can exceed playback speed of some 22-23 fps. In order to re-gain a fluent, solid "green" fps playback in the Color page, it's necessary to

- either turn the scopes off,
- or change the monitoring to SDI 444

to get the full, solid green speed of 25 and 50 fps, respectively.

I have uninstalled the 14 and installed release 12.5.6, and the problem is gone (i.e. the monitoring connection can be left at the normal 4:2:2 AND the scopes can be active in the Color page), and yet my projects - even quite heavily graded - play back at their full, solid green fps.

Interestingly, this only happens in the Color page where the scopes are indispensable; I can display them in the floating window in the Edit page, and the playback is not affected at all. My system configuration is in my sig for reference.

Piotr
Last edited by Piotr Wozniacki on Tue Apr 10, 2018 7:14 am, edited 3 times in total.
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roger.magnusson

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Re: Serious bug DR 14 report

PostTue Mar 13, 2018 8:53 pm

The higher performance on the Edit page is probably because it outputs an 8-bit image regardless of the settings. At least that's the case for non HDR projects.

Interesting that it's faster with 444. HDR project I assume. On non HDR projects it's the other way around, GUI performance becomes very bad with 444 + scopes unless data levels are set to full.
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Marc Wielage

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Re: Serious bug DR 14 report

PostTue Mar 13, 2018 9:52 pm

Piotr Wozniacki wrote:I've lost enough time and effort to test and confirm beyond any doubt, that DR 14 has an inherent bug preventing full playback speed in the Color page when scopes are active. Neither my UHD@25p nor UHD@50p projects - even before any grading - can't exceed playback speed of some 22-23 fps.

The internal scopes do require a certain percentage of overhead from the system, costing some delays in performance.

I solve this by only using external scopes. Blackmagic has UltraScope, and there are also low-cost alternatives like Scopebox, with actually more features than the internal scopes. I couldn't do what I do without external scopes.

The only other solution I can see would be to edit with proxies or get much, much more powerful hardware.
marc wielage, csi • VP/color & workflow • chroma | hollywood
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dariobigi

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Re: Serious bug DR 14 report

PostTue Mar 13, 2018 11:19 pm

12.5.6 has the minimize UI playback in the Settings page to get better real time performance. I'm not sure if 14 has something similar (not loaded or in front of a DR system right now). That may be what is helping you in 12 and can be adjusted in 14
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Re: Serious bug DR 14 report

PostWed Mar 14, 2018 12:25 am

This is interesting. I've been perplexed by poor playback in the color page.

I have a beefy system that has no trouble with 24p 4.6k BM CDNG 3:1 in the edit page with multiple layers. But in Color it maxes out to around 20fps on a single layer with the little red light. No scopes active. It's the same even with 1/4 proxy mode. The GPU memory is never more than 60% on one card as seen in Task Manager. However one of the 32 CPU cores is pinned at 100% on playback...but that's happening in the edit page as well. My guess is that core is being assigned to handle the UI and the UI is on a UHD monitor so the color page is just taxing that CPU core more and slowing playback down. The rest of the cores are barely being taxed - average cpu usage on playback is around 19%.

If my assumption is correct perhaps more cores probably should be assigned in the code to the UI.
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Piotr Wozniacki

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Re: Serious bug DR 14 report

PostWed Mar 14, 2018 7:37 am

dariobigi wrote:12.5.6 has the minimize UI playback in the Settings page to get better real time performance. I'm not sure if 14 has something similar (not loaded or in front of a DR system right now). That may be what is helping you in 12 and can be adjusted in 14

Nope. All those "resource savers" are still there - they have been moved to the global Resolve Preferences. But NONE of them helps re-gain the normal fps speed of the color page; as I said gazillion times:

- only turning scopes off or switching to 444 monitoring does.

My system is strong enough to not need those settings you mention, but only in the 12.5 where the playback speed is solid green, also with 422 and scopes on.

This is a fundamental bug.

Piotr
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Piotr Wozniacki

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Re: Serious bug DR 14 report

PostWed Mar 14, 2018 7:46 am

roger.magnusson wrote:The higher performance on the Edit page is probably because it outputs an 8-bit image regardless of the settings. At least that's the case for non HDR projects.

Interesting that it's faster with 444. HDR project I assume. On non HDR projects it's the other way around, GUI performance becomes very bad with 444 + scopes unless data levels are set to full.

It's not so much dependent on whether the project is HDR or not, as it does on resolution:

Don't have my own HD projects ready for testing, but when playing back the candle test (which is HD) I don't notice slowing down by the presence of scopes in the Color page. With my Titian Xp, I'm getting full 24 fps with all versions but the last one (66 NR Nodes), which plays back at some 16 fps only. So perhaps it's an UHD only bug. (not 100% sure - will prepare a real-life HD project of some clips in the same codec I'm using for UHD, and only then will be able to tell without any doubts).

Piotr
Grading system: DaVinci Resolve Studio; Asus X-99 Pro/USB3.1; i7-5960X CPU; 64 GB RAM; 2x Titan Xp 12GB GPUs; 480 GB SSD system drive; 4x 3TB WD Black in RAID 0; 1TB M.2 NVMe cache drive; Decklink 4K Extreme 12G; Samsung SUHD calibrated monitor
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Piotr Wozniacki

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Re: Serious bug DR 14 report

PostWed Mar 14, 2018 7:59 am

Marc Wielage wrote:
Piotr Wozniacki wrote:I've lost enough time and effort to test and confirm beyond any doubt, that DR 14 has an inherent bug preventing full playback speed in the Color page when scopes are active. Neither my UHD@25p nor UHD@50p projects - even before any grading - can't exceed playback speed of some 22-23 fps.

The internal scopes do require a certain percentage of overhead from the system, costing some delays in performance.

I solve this by only using external scopes. Blackmagic has UltraScope, and there are also low-cost alternatives like Scopebox, with actually more features than the internal scopes. I couldn't do what I do without external scopes.

The only other solution I can see would be to edit with proxies or get much, much more powerful hardware.


Oh c'mon, Marc - with 12.5 my system was more than fast enough. I have an even more powerful GPU now, and yet can't get full fps in the Color page, when scopes are on?!! BTW I don't think relegating them to a separate screen would help: when I un-dock the scopes from the Lower Right corner and into a floating window, it doesn't help at all! Still the upper cap of some 22 fps in both UHD@25p and UHD@50p... And this cap is exactly the same with my H.264 (XAVC-I) codec of the source footage, and with DNxHR HDR media cahced to the super fast, NVMe drive. The Color page in DR 14 is simply broken, when I compare it to how the same HW system and the same media behave with DR 12.5...

Piotr
Grading system: DaVinci Resolve Studio; Asus X-99 Pro/USB3.1; i7-5960X CPU; 64 GB RAM; 2x Titan Xp 12GB GPUs; 480 GB SSD system drive; 4x 3TB WD Black in RAID 0; 1TB M.2 NVMe cache drive; Decklink 4K Extreme 12G; Samsung SUHD calibrated monitor
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Re: Fundamental DR 14 bug report

PostWed Mar 14, 2018 3:03 pm

I may be wrong, but if my "revelation" was pure BS we would already have some official denial from the BMD representatives present on this board. And I certainly do hope BMD is working on a remedy!

Piotr
Last edited by Piotr Wozniacki on Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fundamental DR 14 bug report

PostThu Mar 15, 2018 8:09 am

Piotr Wozniacki wrote:I may be wrong, but if my "revelation" was pure BT we would already have some official denial from the BMD representatives present on this board. And I certainly do hope BMD is working on a remedy!

Piotr

Hi Piotr,
You should post in BM forum. Last time I have post a bug report here I had no sign from them. Then I decided to post on BM forum and the day after I got a message from a developper asking for a project to reproduce the bug.
By the way I have a beefy machine too and I can play Red raw 5k 24 FPS in the edit page but definitely not in the color page.
Regards.
Grégoire AUSINA / Gisèle productions
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Re: Fundamental DR 14 bug report

PostThu Mar 15, 2018 8:15 am

gregausina wrote:Hi Piotr,
You should post in BM forum. Last time I have post a bug report here I had no sign from them. Then I decided to post on BM forum and the day after I got a message from a developper asking for a project to reproduce the bug.
By the way I have a beefy machine too and I can play Red raw 5k 24 FPS in the edit page but definitely not in the color page.
Regards.


Hi Grégoire,

Thanks for your confirmation. Which "BM" forum do you mean exactly? Pardon my ignorance, but I thought this is the Blackmagic Forum? Thanks,

Piotr
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Re: Fundamental DR 14 bug report

PostThu Mar 15, 2018 8:23 am

Oh sorry Piotr,
I was typing on tapatalk thinking I was on the lift gamma gain forum. I've had a small night. Little daughter doesn't want to sleep alone at night. I run grab a cup of coffee.
Regards,
Grégoire AUSINA / Gisèle productions
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Re: Fundamental DR 14 bug report

PostSun Mar 18, 2018 8:54 am

I'm sure all of us here (not just myself) would be extremely grateful if one of the BMD moderators at this forum stepped out and either confirm or deny my finding. It's extremely important to know if the problem is known/recognized by BMD and being worked upon, as whether we can count on a remedy coming (or not) strongly influences our needs (or lack thereof) for upgrading our hardware (or not), and in which direction (more GPU or more CPU horsepower). For me, it's indispensable to have the Color page capable of full project's fps with scopes being displayed (for obvious reasons), and 4:2:2 monitoring via Decklink (as 4:4:4 causes false banding in UHD@50p projects due to my Samsung monitor switching to 8-bit mode when receiving a 4:4:4 signal).

Considering the problem doesn't exists in DR 12.5.6, it's not my system's fault!

Thanks you guys!

Piotr
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Re: Fundamental DR 14 bug report

PostSun Mar 18, 2018 3:23 pm

Hi Piotr,


There are in your settings that are not correct.
Did you try to uninstall Davinci Resolve Completely, delete the directories and reinstall Davinci Resolve. To finish redo the settings and test.

We have practically the same PC (You Asus X-99 Pro, i7-5960X CPU, Me: X99 AII and I6850 K) and I just tested again. I have no problem reading a HLG UHD @ 59.94 fps and Decklink Enable.

My cache is in 'Uncompressed 16-bit float - HDR' but it is not used and I can read at 59.94 fps.
Have you tried reformatting the HDD Cache?

Source clip for test : LG_Cymatic_Jazz_HLG_Astra_teststream

Code: Select all
Video
ID                                       : 2
Format                                   : HEVC
Format/Info                              : High Efficiency Video Coding
Format profile                           : Main 10@L6.1@High
Codec ID                                 : hvc1
Codec ID/Info                            : High Efficiency Video Coding
Duration                                 : 4 min 57 s
Bit rate                                 : 56.7 Mb/s
Width                                    : 3 840 pixels
Height                                   : 2 160 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 16:9
Frame rate mode                          : Constant
Frame rate                               : 59.940 (60000/1001) FPS
Standard                                 : Component
Color space                              : YUV
Chroma subsampling                       : 4:2:0
Bit depth                                : 10 bits
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 0.114
Stream size                              : 1.97 GiB (99%)
Writing library                          : x265 :[Windows][MSVC 1800][64 bit] 16bpp
Encoding settings                        : wpp / ctu=64 / min-cu-size=8 / max-tu-size=32 / tu-intra-depth=1 / tu-inter-depth=1 / me=1 / subme=2 / merange=57 / no-rect / no-amp / max-merge=2 / temporal-mvp / no-early-skip / rdpenalty=0 / no-tskip / no-tskip-fast / no-strong-intra-smoothing / no-lossless / no-cu-lossless / no-constrained-intra / no-fast-intra / open-gop / no-temporal-layers / interlace=0 / keyint=250 / min-keyint=25 / scenecut=40 / rc-lookahead=20 / lookahead-slices=8 / bframes=3 / bframe-bias=0 / b-adapt=2 / ref=7 / limit-refs=3 / no-limit-modes / weightp / weightb / aq-mode=1 / qg-size=64 / aq-strength=1.00 / cbqpoffs=0 / crqpoffs=0 / rd=3 / psy-rd=2.00 / rdoq-level=0 / psy-rdoq=0.00 / signhide / deblock / sao / no-sao-non-deblock / no-b-pyramid / cutree / no-intra-refresh / rc=abr / bitrate=59650000 / qcomp=0.60 / qpmin=0 / qpmax=51 / qpstep=4 / vbv-maxrate=298250000 / vbv-bufsize=298250000 / ipratio=1.40 / pbratio=1.30
Encoded date                             : UTC 2018-02-25 11:36:37
Tagged date                              : UTC 2018-02-25 11:36:37
Color range                              : Limited
Color primaries                          : BT.2020
Transfer characteristics                 : BT.2020 (10-bit)
Matrix coefficients                      : BT.2020 non-constant


A screen capture during playback
piotr.jpg
piotr.jpg (345.6 KiB) Viewed 1475 times




Usage CPU - GPU : Whether CPU or GPU, there is margin. (Can you compare with your system?)
CPU_GPU.jpg
CPU_GPU.jpg (291.08 KiB) Viewed 1475 times



Hoping that BMD offers better than me. :)
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David Cherniack

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Re: Fundamental DR 14 bug report

PostSun Mar 18, 2018 3:32 pm

@jean Claude

It's interesting that all your cores are operating equally on playback. With my 16/32 core system, one core is pinned at 100%. More mystery to add to the pot.
David
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Piotr Wozniacki

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Re: Fundamental DR 14 bug report

PostSun Mar 18, 2018 3:37 pm

Thanks for chiming-in, Jean Claude!

I frankly do not understand what you mean. Even assuming that I indeed should uninstall and clean-reinstall DR 14 - what difference it is going to make, if a simple and fast test (un-installing the 14 and re-installing the 12.5.6) allows me play full speed on the Color page, just as I always did - i.e. with scopes on, and with the 4:2:2 Decklink connection? As easy and simple as that!

And then - after I uninstalled the 12 and installed the 14 again - the situation is the same, i.e. the is the max fps "cap" of some 23 fps in the Color page (no matter whether the project is UHD@25p or 50p), and no matter if I play straight from the source or the cached media - as long as the scopes are on and the Decklink connection is the regular 4:2:2?

No, my Friend - no way of installation is not going to help. Also remember that we already have had - and installed several versions of 14 (beta and final), and it's still the same: playback speed in Color page limited by the presence of scopes (unless I engage my Decklinl's 4:4:4 connection).

Piotr

PS. When taking you full fps snapshot with scopes on, was your Deklink connected at 4:2:2 or 4:4:4? Also, did you try the same with different codec media (like the H.264 XAVC-I, or its L-GOP version)?
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Jean Claude

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Re: Fundamental DR 14 bug report

PostSun Mar 18, 2018 4:25 pm

Hi Piotr,

Do you recognize the clip? This is one of the clips that you had linked one day.
I placed it several times on a TL and read in a loop.

Once without Decklink :

Clip Piotr_DECKLINK_OFF.jpg
Clip Piotr_DECKLINK_OFF.jpg (436.12 KiB) Viewed 1449 times


Once by activating the Decklink. I can not get 50 fps at 46 fps vs your (My CPU is at maximum with this MXF OP-1A UHD from your Sony FS7). But we are far from your 23 FPS. here
(the previous test was with a HEVC, that probably explains why it was better)

Clip Piotr_DECKLINK_ON.jpg
Clip Piotr_DECKLINK_ON.jpg (438.25 KiB) Viewed 1449 times


CPU-GPU

CPU_GPU.jpg
CPU_GPU.jpg (270.51 KiB) Viewed 1449 times
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Jean Claude

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Re: Fundamental DR 14 bug report

PostSun Mar 18, 2018 4:26 pm

@David Cherniack,

I just applied a slight overckloking of 13% using ASUS 5 way optimization bundled with my motherboard. No other setting in the bios except that for my G RAM Skill TridentZ F4-3200C14-16GTZ 16 GB X 2 (total 32 GB), I changed to XMP.
(only if we are aware of what we are doing)
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Piotr Wozniacki

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Re: Fundamental DR 14 bug report

PostSun Mar 18, 2018 4:29 pm

Jean Claude wrote:Hi Piotr,

Do you recognize the clip? This is one of the clips that you had linked one day.
I placed it several times on a TL and read in a loop.

Once without Decklink :

Clip Piotr_DECKLINK_OFF.jpg


Once by activating the Decklink. I can not get 50 fps at 46 fps vs your (My CPU is at maximum with this MXF OP-1A UHD from your Sony FS7). But we are far from your 23 FPS. here
(the previous test was with a HEVC, that probably explains why it was better)

Clip Piotr_DECKLINK_ON.jpg


CPU-GPU

CPU_GPU.jpg
What exactly do you mean by "activating /deactivating Declink?mine is always active - the difference is in 4:2:2 vs. 4:4:4

Sent from my VTR-L29 using Tapatalk
Last edited by Piotr Wozniacki on Sun Mar 18, 2018 4:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Grading system: DaVinci Resolve Studio; Asus X-99 Pro/USB3.1; i7-5960X CPU; 64 GB RAM; 2x Titan Xp 12GB GPUs; 480 GB SSD system drive; 4x 3TB WD Black in RAID 0; 1TB M.2 NVMe cache drive; Decklink 4K Extreme 12G; Samsung SUHD calibrated monitor
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Re: Fundamental DR 14 bug report

PostSun Mar 18, 2018 4:30 pm

5-10% performance drop with BM card active sounds "normal".
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Jean Claude

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Re: Fundamental DR 14 bug report

PostSun Mar 18, 2018 4:33 pm

Piotr Wozniacki wrote:
Jean Claude wrote:Hi Piotr,

Do you recognize the clip? This is one of the clips that you had linked one day.
I placed it several times on a TL and read in a loop.

Once without Decklink :

Clip Piotr_DECKLINK_OFF.jpg


Once by activating the Decklink. I can not get 50 fps at 46 fps vs your (My CPU is at maximum with this MXF OP-1A UHD from your Sony FS7). But we are far from your 23 FPS. here
(the previous test was with a HEVC, that probably explains why it was better)

Clip Piotr_DECKLINK_ON.jpg


CPU-GPU

CPU_GPU.jpg
What exactly do you mean by "activating /deactivating Declink?

Sent from my VTR-L29 using Tapatalk


Go to Davinci resolve preference => Video and Audio I/O :
without :
Change For capture and Playback from Decklink 4K Extreme to None
(and test)

Activating :
Change For capture and Playback from None to Decklink 4K Extreme

No difference with 4:2:2 or 4:4:4
:)
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Jean Claude

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Re: Fundamental DR 14 bug report

PostSun Mar 18, 2018 4:36 pm

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:5-10% performance drop with BM card active sounds "normal".


+1
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Piotr Wozniacki

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Re: Fundamental DR 14 bug report

PostSun Mar 18, 2018 4:44 pm

Jean Claude wrote:Go to Davinci resolve preference => Video and Audio I/O :
without :
Change For capture and Playback from Decklink 4K Extreme to None
(and test)

Activating :
Change For capture and Playback from None to Decklink 4K Extreme

No difference with 4:2:2 or 4:4:4
:)

Oh, that - of course, w/o Decklink I'm getting full 50 fps, just like with DR 12.5.6 AND Decklink active. With DR14.3 and Decklink active, still no more than 23 fps.

Piotr

PS. Will try some very old Video Desktop drivers. Which Desktop Video are you running?
Grading system: DaVinci Resolve Studio; Asus X-99 Pro/USB3.1; i7-5960X CPU; 64 GB RAM; 2x Titan Xp 12GB GPUs; 480 GB SSD system drive; 4x 3TB WD Black in RAID 0; 1TB M.2 NVMe cache drive; Decklink 4K Extreme 12G; Samsung SUHD calibrated monitor
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Piotr Wozniacki

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Re: Fundamental DR 14 bug report

PostSun Mar 18, 2018 5:11 pm

OK - tested with 3 different Desktop Video versions - still the same; with scopes on and 422 - speed cap of 23 fps no matter what.

But thanks, Jean-C - this made me suspect my Dekclink more than anything else. Although, the million dollar question remains:

Why - with all those different Decklink Drivers - under DR 12.5.6, I'm still getting the full preview speed of 50 fps? Not even the 3-4% drop you are having?

Lost,

Piotr

PS. Could it be that even the newest Desktop Video isn't optimized for Titan XP yet?
Last edited by Piotr Wozniacki on Sun Mar 18, 2018 5:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Grading system: DaVinci Resolve Studio; Asus X-99 Pro/USB3.1; i7-5960X CPU; 64 GB RAM; 2x Titan Xp 12GB GPUs; 480 GB SSD system drive; 4x 3TB WD Black in RAID 0; 1TB M.2 NVMe cache drive; Decklink 4K Extreme 12G; Samsung SUHD calibrated monitor
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Jean Claude

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Re: Fundamental DR 14 bug report

PostSun Mar 18, 2018 5:40 pm

Hi Piotr,

I do not have a specific answer to give you but what seems to be seen is that there is a bottleneck somewhere in your system. I remind you that we have something close to the same system.

I admit that it disturbs me to be unable to better help.

Ok a few% difference can be normal but from 23 to 46 FPS for a source MXF SONY FS7 UHD @ 50 fps: that's a lot.

(If you're reading outside Davinci Resolve with VLC or other FFMPEG-based players ...: Is the reading at 50 fps?) :oops:
Windows 10 PRO X64 1709 and 1803 | DaVinci Resolve Studio 14.3.0.014 | Fusion Studio 9.0.2 | Decklink Studio 4K 6G | Desktop Video 10.10.11
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Jean Claude

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Re: Fundamental DR 14 bug report

PostSun Mar 18, 2018 5:46 pm

Piotr Wozniacki wrote:OK - tested with 3 different Desktop Video versions - still the same; with scopes on and 422 - speed cap of 23 fps no matter what.

But thanks, Jean-C - this made me suspect my Dekclink more than anything else. Although, the million dollar question remains:

Why - with all those different Decklink Drivers - under DR 12.5.6, I'm still getting the full preview speed of 50 fps? Not even the 3-4% drop you are having?

Lost,

Piotr

PS. Could it be that even the newest Desktop Video isn't optimized for Titan XP yet?


Hi Piotr,

Regarding Titan XP: it's independent of Davinci Resolve. I think it's more NVIDIA and its drivers. NO ?
Windows 10 PRO X64 1709 and 1803 | DaVinci Resolve Studio 14.3.0.014 | Fusion Studio 9.0.2 | Decklink Studio 4K 6G | Desktop Video 10.10.11
(I forgot about W7 Ultimate for over 4 years.) Sorry
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Jean Claude

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Re: Fundamental DR 14 bug report

PostSun Mar 18, 2018 5:54 pm

I'm using the NVIDIA 390.77 version if it helps :oops:
Windows 10 PRO X64 1709 and 1803 | DaVinci Resolve Studio 14.3.0.014 | Fusion Studio 9.0.2 | Decklink Studio 4K 6G | Desktop Video 10.10.11
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Re: Fundamental DR 14 bug report

PostSun Mar 18, 2018 6:55 pm

Turning off the Decklink card in preferences allows my system to playback 4.6k DNG clips in the Color page at full 24fps. One core is no longer pinned at 100%. So....

....it seems there's a problem with the Decklink driver and how it interacts with the Color page playback engine. Blackmagic surely is aware of this. It's not so much a bug but the present design of the software...brilliant is some places, handicapped badly in others.
David
Resolve Studio 15 b4
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Fundamental DR 14 bug report

PostSun Mar 18, 2018 8:51 pm

Hmmm....this sort of performance issue don't make much sense.
Data is processed by GPU and if BM card is enabled then at very end it's converted to one of the BM supported pixel formats and sent to card. In case of active monitoring LUTs GPU has to create another version with those applied and then send to card. This is why there is small performance hit. There is absolutely no logical explanation why 50p works and 25p doesn't :D
4:4:4 v 4:2:2 preview difference could in theory make sense as data is converted to different pixel format e.g. r210 (10bit RGB) instead of v210 (10bit YUV 4:2:2), but only some crappy/buggy code (in case of v210 conversion) could really explain such a performance hit.

It simply has to be "black magic" :)
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Fundamental DR 14 bug report

PostSun Mar 18, 2018 8:53 pm

David Cherniack wrote:Turning off the Decklink card in preferences allows my system to playback 4.6k DNG clips in the Color page at full 24fps. One core is no longer pinned at 100%. So....

....it seems there's a problem with the Decklink driver and how it interacts with the Color page playback engine. Blackmagic surely is aware of this. It's not so much a bug but the present design of the software...brilliant is some places, handicapped badly in others.


If 1 core is at 100% it means there is a bit of code which is not multithreaded and it's slowing whole processing chain. This can/should be fixed.
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David Cherniack

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Re: Fundamental DR 14 bug report

PostSun Mar 18, 2018 9:31 pm

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:If 1 core is at 100% it means there is a bit of code which is not multithreaded and it's slowing whole processing chain. This can/should be fixed.


Agreed but so should lots of other things including the inability to cache render compound clips which slows me down considerably.
David
Resolve Studio 15 b4
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Piotr Wozniacki

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Re: Fundamental DR 14 bug report

PostMon Mar 19, 2018 5:59 am

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:Hmmm....this sort of performance issue don't make much sense.
Data is processed by GPU and if BM card is enabled then at very end it's converted to one of the BM supported pixel formats and sent to card. In case of active monitoring LUTs GPU has to create another version with those applied and then send to card. This is why there is small performance hit. There is absolutely no logical explanation why 50p works and 25p doesn't :D
4:4:4 v 4:2:2 preview difference could in theory make sense as data is converted to different pixel format e.g. r210 (10bit RGB) instead of v210 (10bit YUV 4:2:2), but only some crappy/buggy code (in case of v210 conversion) could really explain such a performance hit.

It simply has to be "black magic" :)


Andrew - you got it wrong; both 25p AND 50p never exceed 23 fps! So in the case of the latter it's more than 50% performance hit....

Piotr
Grading system: DaVinci Resolve Studio; Asus X-99 Pro/USB3.1; i7-5960X CPU; 64 GB RAM; 2x Titan Xp 12GB GPUs; 480 GB SSD system drive; 4x 3TB WD Black in RAID 0; 1TB M.2 NVMe cache drive; Decklink 4K Extreme 12G; Samsung SUHD calibrated monitor
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Piotr Wozniacki

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Re: Fundamental DR 14 bug report

PostMon Mar 19, 2018 6:22 am

Does anyone know if there is a tool from BMD for complete removal any traces of Resolve and Desktop video from registry? I guess I need to try and install everything again from scratch!

Piotr
Grading system: DaVinci Resolve Studio; Asus X-99 Pro/USB3.1; i7-5960X CPU; 64 GB RAM; 2x Titan Xp 12GB GPUs; 480 GB SSD system drive; 4x 3TB WD Black in RAID 0; 1TB M.2 NVMe cache drive; Decklink 4K Extreme 12G; Samsung SUHD calibrated monitor
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Piotr Wozniacki

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Re: Fundamental DR 14 bug report

PostMon Mar 19, 2018 6:37 am

Jean Claude wrote:
(If you're reading outside Davinci Resolve with VLC or other FFMPEG-based players ...: Is the reading at 50 fps?) :oops:

Of course I'm getting full 50 fps - also from Resolve! BUT in the Color page, the scopes need to be off or connection made 4:4:4. No such need on other DR 14 pages, or ANY pages (including Color) in Resolve 12.5.6.

Piotr
Grading system: DaVinci Resolve Studio; Asus X-99 Pro/USB3.1; i7-5960X CPU; 64 GB RAM; 2x Titan Xp 12GB GPUs; 480 GB SSD system drive; 4x 3TB WD Black in RAID 0; 1TB M.2 NVMe cache drive; Decklink 4K Extreme 12G; Samsung SUHD calibrated monitor
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Jean Claude

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Re: Fundamental DR 14 bug report

PostMon Mar 19, 2018 6:27 pm

David Cherniack wrote:Turning off the Decklink card in preferences allows my system to playback 4.6k DNG clips in the Color page at full 24fps. One core is no longer pinned at 100%. So....

....it seems there's a problem with the Decklink driver and how it interacts with the Color page playback engine. Blackmagic surely is aware of this. It's not so much a bug but the present design of the software...brilliant is some places, handicapped badly in others.


Hi David,

I just did a test with a clip Blackmagic URSA Mini 4.6K - Bridge Shot DNG Car and everything works fine.

I even placed a light Spatial NR denoise and even with the 4 scopes: it goes here to (normal) 24 fps.

You have an Intel i9 7960x @ 4.4GHz + Asus x299 Prime Deluxe: you should explode my results.

You must also have an issue with your settings. It's really not normal not to be able to read a DNG 4.6K @ 24fps.

Sorry to say it :oops: : you have to adjust your machine.

car_bridge_shot.jpg
car_bridge_shot.jpg (323.99 KiB) Viewed 1215 times


(Sorry Piotr if I pollute your tread) :oops:
Windows 10 PRO X64 1709 and 1803 | DaVinci Resolve Studio 14.3.0.014 | Fusion Studio 9.0.2 | Decklink Studio 4K 6G | Desktop Video 10.10.11
(I forgot about W7 Ultimate for over 4 years.) Sorry
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David Cherniack

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Re: Fundamental DR 14 bug report

PostMon Mar 19, 2018 6:52 pm

Hi David,

I just did a test with a clip Blackmagic URSA Mini 4.6K - Bridge Shot DNG Car and everything works fine.

I even placed a light Spatial NR denoise and even with the 4 scopes: it goes here to (normal) 24 fps.

You have an Intel i9 7960x @ 4.4GHz + Asus x299 Prime Deluxe: you should explode my results.

You must also have an issue with your settings. It's really not normal not to be able to read a DNG 4.6K @ 24fps.

Sorry to say it :oops: : you have to adjust your machine.


Jean Claude,

I have no difficulty playing back multiple streams of Blackmagic URSA Mini 4.6K 3:1 (about 5 or 6 at 50% opacity) on the Edit page. It's only on the Color page that playback maxes out at 19 fps with a single stream...unless I turn off the Decklink card. Maybe it's settings in the BM driver software but with Decklink 4K mini monitor there's not much choice. Whatever switches I throw do not make a difference. And as I've said, one core is pinned at 100% with the Decklink card active.
David
Resolve Studio 15 b4
Windows 10 Pro
Decklink Mini Monitor 4k Desktop Video 10.9.7
Intel i9 7960x @ 4.3GHz
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Martin Schitter

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Re: Fundamental DR 14 bug report

PostMon Mar 19, 2018 8:23 pm

dear piotr!

i can not add much useful help to your particular issue, but i really hope, that you will find any useful workaround!

just of curriosity i did a cursory search about well known thread safety issues related to decklink drivers and comments in its API headers. unfortunately this did remind me again about all this fundamental limitations, which make the difference between more optimized memory sharing and direct [cross device] data transfer that are only available in case of nvidia quadro and tesla cards, but not for the getting faster and faster GTX series. that's becoming more and more a serious bottleneck for i/o-intensive video processing.

well -- nobody should be surprised about this mainly artificial resp. driver depended differentiation attempt. it's in fact just the same unsatisfying game, that blackmagic plays with resolve users, when it comes to the mandatory use of decklink cards. in both cases it's a really deplorable tragedy at the expense of discontented users...

but again: i don't have any useful practical help and do not want to disturb this really important thread any longer...
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Re: Fundamental DR 14 bug report

PostMon Mar 19, 2018 10:16 pm

Piotr, post a screenshot of the task manager, I'm very curious what your CPUs is operating at when decoding the material during playback in the color page vs edit page.

In theory, 50 fps UHD from an h.264 source will tax the CPU much harder than ProRes, CinemaDNG, etc. Additionally, what happens when you transcode a clip to DNxHR or Cineform and try to play that back?
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Fundamental DR 14 bug report

PostMon Mar 19, 2018 11:44 pm

Piotr Wozniacki wrote:
Andrew - you got it wrong; both 25p AND 50p never exceed 23 fps! So in the case of the latter it's more than 50% performance hit....

Piotr



Well, this is good as at least it makes more sense :)

It's most likely related to the way how GPU sends data to BM card. It can be also related to fact where are your GPU and BM card housed in terms of PCI-E lanes (CPU v chipset).
As Martin said with Quadro you have GPU Direct technology which allows for optimised GPU->SDI card data travel. GTX cards seems to have no support for this technology (although this is not clear), so there is bigger delay/more performance hit. What you experience is far beyond this though :)

Do you also see one of the cores maxing at 100% with BM activated?
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Piotr Wozniacki

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Re: Fundamental DR 14 bug report

PostTue Mar 20, 2018 5:51 am

No - none of my CPU cores is dominant, and the general load distribution is CPU 29% vs. GPU 42%. This is silly, as when I turn scopes off so it plays full speed, I'm getting almost 100% CPU tax (or very close to it).

Piotr
Grading system: DaVinci Resolve Studio; Asus X-99 Pro/USB3.1; i7-5960X CPU; 64 GB RAM; 2x Titan Xp 12GB GPUs; 480 GB SSD system drive; 4x 3TB WD Black in RAID 0; 1TB M.2 NVMe cache drive; Decklink 4K Extreme 12G; Samsung SUHD calibrated monitor
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Re: Fundamental DR 14 bug report

PostTue Mar 20, 2018 7:31 am

Piotr Wozniacki wrote:No - none of my CPU cores is dominant, and the general load distribution is CPU 29% vs. GPU 42%. This is silly, as when I turn scopes off so it plays full speed, I'm getting almost 100% CPU tax (or very close to it).

Piotr


Are you monitoring in video levels? Can you try changing to data levels to see if that makes a difference?
Rohit Gupta

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Piotr Wozniacki

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Re: Fundamental DR 14 bug report

PostTue Mar 20, 2018 7:37 am

No difference at all with video levels, Rohid.

Piotr

PS. Just to clarify that "almost 100% CPU load" I'm getting when playing back full speed my UHD@50p projects; the 25p ones - obviously - do not tax CPU that much (roughly 50% plus some overhead).
Grading system: DaVinci Resolve Studio; Asus X-99 Pro/USB3.1; i7-5960X CPU; 64 GB RAM; 2x Titan Xp 12GB GPUs; 480 GB SSD system drive; 4x 3TB WD Black in RAID 0; 1TB M.2 NVMe cache drive; Decklink 4K Extreme 12G; Samsung SUHD calibrated monitor
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Piotr Wozniacki

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Re: Fundamental DR 14 bug report

PostTue Mar 20, 2018 7:51 am

Chip.Murphy wrote:Piotr, post a screenshot of the task manager, I'm very curious what your CPUs is operating at when decoding the material during playback in the color page vs edit page.

In theory, 50 fps UHD from an h.264 source will tax the CPU much harder than ProRes, CinemaDNG, etc. Additionally, what happens when you transcode a clip to DNxHR or Cineform and try to play that back?

AS I said, full speed playback of my UHD@50p timelines taxes my CPU at 98% on average (please see the CPU load screenshot posted by J-C; mine look identical). When I cache my media as DNxHR HDR to the super-fast NVMe SSD drive and play back from it - I'm getting exactly the same speeds as with playback from the sources (which reside on a 4x WD Black RAID 0). Meaning that - with scopes off, or 4:4:4 monitoring - I'm getting full 50 fps with ease.

Piotr
Grading system: DaVinci Resolve Studio; Asus X-99 Pro/USB3.1; i7-5960X CPU; 64 GB RAM; 2x Titan Xp 12GB GPUs; 480 GB SSD system drive; 4x 3TB WD Black in RAID 0; 1TB M.2 NVMe cache drive; Decklink 4K Extreme 12G; Samsung SUHD calibrated monitor
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Jean Claude

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Re: Fundamental DR 14 bug report

PostTue Mar 20, 2018 8:25 am

Hi Piotr,

Surely a stupid idea but .. if it was a hardware problem of the PSU?

Can you check that your motherboard is properly powered by PSU?

Read from the English manual page 1-37 of your motherboard, Is your PSU is>=1000 Watt?
This is what ASUS recommends for intensive use of the PC.

Personally I had a Corsair PSU 750 W Bronze and it dropped 2 years ago (not enough power?). I changed to a PSU Corsair HXi Series, HX1000i, 1000 Watt Platinum and no problem.

Another way to study: check that the Decklink is correctly inserted in its slot. Maybe she's not inserted enough?

Hope this help :)
Windows 10 PRO X64 1709 and 1803 | DaVinci Resolve Studio 14.3.0.014 | Fusion Studio 9.0.2 | Decklink Studio 4K 6G | Desktop Video 10.10.11
(I forgot about W7 Ultimate for over 4 years.) Sorry
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Piotr Wozniacki

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Re: Fundamental DR 14 bug report

PostTue Mar 20, 2018 8:36 am

Hi J-C;

Both thought of already; PSU is Corsair RM1000X; Decklink has been re-seated twice.

Besides: it wouldn't give me full 50 fps playback in DR 12.5.6 with such ease if so basic stuff was broken :)

Piotr
Grading system: DaVinci Resolve Studio; Asus X-99 Pro/USB3.1; i7-5960X CPU; 64 GB RAM; 2x Titan Xp 12GB GPUs; 480 GB SSD system drive; 4x 3TB WD Black in RAID 0; 1TB M.2 NVMe cache drive; Decklink 4K Extreme 12G; Samsung SUHD calibrated monitor
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Piotr Wozniacki

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Re: Fundamental DR 14 bug report

PostTue Mar 20, 2018 12:50 pm

UPDATE:

I have found the NEWEST release which is still able to play full speed, just like the 12.5.6 did. It's Release 14.1.0.018 - so something went wrong with the code after this release, and is present with all 14.2 up and including the 14.3 releases.

What a pity I don't have a full copy of my database from that time

Piotr
Last edited by Piotr Wozniacki on Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Grading system: DaVinci Resolve Studio; Asus X-99 Pro/USB3.1; i7-5960X CPU; 64 GB RAM; 2x Titan Xp 12GB GPUs; 480 GB SSD system drive; 4x 3TB WD Black in RAID 0; 1TB M.2 NVMe cache drive; Decklink 4K Extreme 12G; Samsung SUHD calibrated monitor
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waltervolpatto

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Re: Fundamental DR 14 bug report

PostTue Mar 20, 2018 1:01 pm

From 14.1 to 14.2 there was a change in the optimization.

Go to preference/ user
Performance (or whatever is called)
Turn manual on
Uncheck the optimization (i know, it is counterintuitive)
Turn on hide ui and minimize interface update

Does it make it better?
In the scaling page of the setting, is the playback size matching tineline or matching UHD output setting?
Walter Volpatto - C.S.I.
Digital Intermediate Colorist
Fotokem, Burbank. USA
www.fotokem.com
www.coloristsociety.com

Inb4YouCanJustColorComments: yes you can, good luck with that.
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Piotr Wozniacki

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Re: Fundamental DR 14 bug report

PostTue Mar 20, 2018 1:07 pm

waltervolpatto wrote:From 14.1 to 14.2 there was a change in the optimization.

Go to preference/ user
Performance (or whatever is called)
Turn manual on
Uncheck the optimization (i know, it is counterintuitive)
Turn on hide ui and minimize interface update

Does it make it better?
In the scaling page of the setting, is the playback size matching tineline or matching UHD output setting?

No, it doesn't help much - there is a fundamental bug in the Color page of all Releases after the 14.1.

This is a 100% certain information.

Piotr
Grading system: DaVinci Resolve Studio; Asus X-99 Pro/USB3.1; i7-5960X CPU; 64 GB RAM; 2x Titan Xp 12GB GPUs; 480 GB SSD system drive; 4x 3TB WD Black in RAID 0; 1TB M.2 NVMe cache drive; Decklink 4K Extreme 12G; Samsung SUHD calibrated monitor
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waltervolpatto

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Re: Fundamental DR 14 bug report

PostTue Mar 20, 2018 1:24 pm

Piotr, no doubt that your system does not perform as expected, however, can you simply give me a yes or not so i can understand your setup:
1) did you check that manual optimization is on and not automatic?
2) that the three options below that come up when you switch from automatic to manual are off?
3) That the two option above inn the same menu are checked on?
4) that if you're setup for UHD in your decklink, the scaling match the same geometry 3840x2160?

thanks.
Resolve is more than capable to work with 8k real-time (wr have such request at the moment) so I'm trying to understand your specific issue.
Walter Volpatto - C.S.I.
Digital Intermediate Colorist
Fotokem, Burbank. USA
www.fotokem.com
www.coloristsociety.com

Inb4YouCanJustColorComments: yes you can, good luck with that.
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Piotr Wozniacki

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Re: Fundamental DR 14 bug report

PostTue Mar 20, 2018 1:31 pm

waltervolpatto wrote:Piotr, no doubt that your system does not perform as expected, however, can you simply give me a yes or not so i can understand your setup:
1) did you check that manual optimization is on and not automatic?
2) that the three options below that come up when you switch from automatic to manual are off?
3) That the two option above inn the same menu are checked on?
4) that if you're setup for UHD in your decklink, the scaling match the same geometry 3840x2160?

thanks.
Resolve is more than capable to work with 8k real-time (wr have such request at the moment) so I'm trying to understand your specific issue.


Walter - I spent the last week pulling my hair, and only 15 minutes ago managed to make my system fly as it used to. Solid green dot, full speed in both UHD@25p and UHD@50p. This is how it always was - and the last version it's like this is the 14.1. So please give me some time to uninstall the 14.1 again, re-install 14.3, and check all your suggestion, will you? I'm not sure I'll have enough patience to do it anyway - better wait for the 14.4, I guess...

BTW I did play with optimization before I concluded the 14.3 is broken - it made it better or worse, but never truly full speed. As to the last question: in my scaling setting, I had the output 'match timeline setting' which of course was 3840x2160.

I only hope that the 14.4 will be repaired, and it will read my database again :)

Piotr
Grading system: DaVinci Resolve Studio; Asus X-99 Pro/USB3.1; i7-5960X CPU; 64 GB RAM; 2x Titan Xp 12GB GPUs; 480 GB SSD system drive; 4x 3TB WD Black in RAID 0; 1TB M.2 NVMe cache drive; Decklink 4K Extreme 12G; Samsung SUHD calibrated monitor
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