Decklink Mini Monitor 4K HDMI 10-bit and Eizo

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Ian Henderson

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Decklink Mini Monitor 4K HDMI 10-bit and Eizo

PostFri Aug 10, 2018 7:55 am

Apologies if I'm flogging a dead horse here, but I've read a lot of conflicting stuff on this issue. On the BM site it clearly states:

HDMI Video Sampling
4:4:4, 4:2:2 & 4:2:0

HDMI Configuration
HDMI 2.0a supports Deep Color and HDR. Automatically configures to connected display.

HDMI Resolution
Pixel for pixel HD resolution output to connected device.

HDMI Color Precision
Up to 12-bit (Deep Color)

Multiple Rate Support
HDMI and SDI video connections are switchable between SD/HD/2K and 4K.

https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/decklink/techspecs/W-DLK-32

I've seen many people reporting an inability to get 10-bit over HDMI to Eizo monitors, which seem to be the only feasible alternative to ponying up for a Flanders. Is this still definitely the case, or was this issue only with the original, non-4K Mini Monitor? Or are there Eizos which can receive a proper 10-bit signal over HDMI from a Decklink Mini Monitor 4K?

We need to purchase a grading monitor for a small studio and 40% import duties on monitors here make Flanders a daunting proposition price-wise.
Last edited by Ian Henderson on Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Deckling Mini Monitor 4K HDMI 10-bit and Eizo

PostFri Aug 10, 2018 9:21 am

BM seems to be mess when it comes to HDMI implementation/compatibility.
It may work or not. What Eizo compatibility page suggests is that Ternanex 12G SDI to HDMI converter seems to work well (or AJA Hi5 Plus). This would be additional cost.
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AndreasOberg

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Re: Deckling Mini Monitor 4K HDMI 10-bit and Eizo

PostFri Aug 10, 2018 9:43 am

You probably know but Eizo are coming out with a new 4k monitor:
https://www.eizo.com/products/coloredge/cg319x/
I'm not sure if you can yet buy them yet.
The old 4k 318 had an older hdmi, 1.2 I think it was which only supports 30Hz at 4k.

/Andreas
Consulting Lead VFX Microsoft Games/Rare Ltd
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Ian Henderson

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Re: Deckling Mini Monitor 4K HDMI 10-bit and Eizo

PostFri Aug 10, 2018 10:14 am

AndreasOberg wrote:You probably know but Eizo are coming out with a new 4k monitor:
https://www.eizo.com/products/coloredge/cg319x/
I'm not sure if you can yet buy them yet.
The old 4k 318 had an older hdmi, 1.2 I think it was which only supports 30Hz at 4k.

/Andreas


Yeah, saw that. I actually had a 318-4K out on rental yesterday for a grade - didn't have time to do any proper testing to try and work out exactly what was going on with 8bit/10bit over HDMI. It looked ok but renting a monitor is a real lottery on calibration and not an ideal situation at all. I'm guessing with only HDMI 1.2 I wasn't seeing 10-bit.

They're pretty expensive though - the 318/319. At that price I'd value colour accuracy way higher than 4K so would probably go for a Flanders DM240 rather, even though it doesn't do Rec 2020 or 4K.
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AndreasOberg

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Re: Decklink Mini Monitor 4K HDMI 10-bit and Eizo

PostFri Aug 10, 2018 10:53 am

Tricky decisions!
We film a lot ourselves and what I really miss with a 1080p monitor is knowing how noise, sharpness and focus is going to look at a 4k monitor.
Never used the Flanders myself.
/Andreas
Consulting Lead VFX Microsoft Games/Rare Ltd
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Deckling Mini Monitor 4K HDMI 10-bit and Eizo

PostFri Aug 10, 2018 11:15 am

Ian Henderson wrote:
AndreasOberg wrote:You probably know but Eizo are coming out with a new 4k monitor:
https://www.eizo.com/products/coloredge/cg319x/
I'm not sure if you can yet buy them yet.
The old 4k 318 had an older hdmi, 1.2 I think it was which only supports 30Hz at 4k.

/Andreas


Yeah, saw that. I actually had a 318-4K out on rental yesterday for a grade - didn't have time to do any proper testing to try and work out exactly what was going on with 8bit/10bit over HDMI. It looked ok but renting a monitor is a real lottery on calibration and not an ideal situation at all. I'm guessing with only HDMI 1.2 I wasn't seeing 10-bit.

They're pretty expensive though - the 318/319. At that price I'd value colour accuracy way higher than 4K so would probably go for a Flanders DM240 rather, even though it doesn't do Rec 2020 or 4K.


It's HDMI 1.4 based, not HDMI 1.2, but this has no direct impact on 10bit support. It just means no UHD 50/60p although people are doing this using DisplayPort (with SDI to DP1.2 converter).

Eizo is just more a graphics monitor (Eizo has to compromise between AdobeRGB and P3 coverage), but they are also very accurate once calibrated. It's not bad compromise if you don't need typical broadcast monitor features- SDI, etc. They use very good ("current") panels and electronics (with 16bit LUTs on even 24bit LUT for HDR model). I don't think they are any less accurate than Flanders at all.
Forget about Rec.2020- it's theoretical color space for now. If monitor has P3 coverage that's already good.

CG319 is about 6K$ which gives you 4096x2160 good panel. There isn't much on the market at this price/quality.

CG319 seems to work well with Teranex Mini converter (https://www.eizoglobal.com/products/col ... html#tab03) or AJA converters. With other devices BM seems to have some fundamental issue with their HDMI implementation (countless reports about problems not only with "monitors" but also many TVs, which is "strange").
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Ian Henderson

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Re: Decklink Mini Monitor 4K HDMI 10-bit and Eizo

PostFri Aug 10, 2018 11:47 am

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:It's HDMI 1.4 based, not HDMI 1.2, but this has no direct impact on 10bit support. It just means no UHD 50/60p although people are doing this using DisplayPort (with SDI to DP1.2 converter).


Is this for monitoring material to be exported at 60p? We only ever produce 23.98/25p content, so this would not be relevant surely?

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:Eizo is just more a graphics monitor (Eizo has to compromise between AdobeRGB and P3 coverage), but they are also very accurate once calibrated. It's not bad compromise if you don't need typical broadcast monitor features- SDI, etc. They use very good ("current") panels and electronics (with 16bit LUTs on even 24bit LUT for HDR model). I don't think they are any less accurate than Flanders at all.
Forget about Rec.2020- it's theoretical color space for now. If monitor has P3 coverage that's already good.


A monitor is a large investment, which should hopefully last a long time. I was thinking that if (when) 2020 becomes the standard it would be good to have that as an option. Regarding the broadcast features of SDI, I am only concerned that we have a solid 10 bit, colour-accurate display for grading - any way we can get there is fine by me.

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:CG319 is about 6K$ which gives you 4096x2160 good panel. There isn't much on the market at this price/quality.

I have an option to buy a demo 318-4K at a good price, which is what I was considering, or possible a 247X.

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:CG319 seems to work well with Teranex Mini converter (https://www.eizoglobal.com/products/col ... html#tab03) or AJA converters. With other devices BM seems to have some fundamental issue with their HDMI implementation (countless reports about problems not only with "monitors" but also many TVs, which is "strange").


Yeah, it seems very odd that one of their devices would do SDI to HDMI fine, but the card that plays out SDI and HDMI wouldn't do that same conversion properly. Has anyone absolutely verified this?

Thanks Andrew!
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Decklink Mini Monitor 4K HDMI 10-bit and Eizo

PostFri Aug 10, 2018 12:17 pm

Ian Henderson wrote:
Is this for monitoring material to be exported at 60p? We only ever produce 23.98/25p content, so this would not be relevant surely?


Yes, this is for 50/60p support. Up to 30p is fine with HDMI 1.4. If you want UHD 50/60p on CG318-4K then you would need HDMI 2.0 to DP1.2 converter (they started appearing ) or SDI to DP 1.2 (expensive and hard to find).
Ian Henderson wrote:A monitor is a large investment, which should hopefully last a long time. I was thinking that if (when) 2020 becomes the standard it would be good to have that as an option. Regarding the broadcast features of SDI, I am only concerned that we have a solid 10 bit, colour-accurate display for grading - any way we can get there is fine by me.


As I said- forget about Rec.2020 today. There is not a single monitor which can do it. P3 gamut coverage is what you should be looking at today.

318-4K is nice monitor. Definitely good choice as not much out there for 4K at this price point.
Well- if Teranex Mini works fine and other devices don't then this is clearly BM issue. Teranex is probably based on different chip/code around it. Most other BM cards most likely share electronics/firmware.
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Craig Marshall

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Re: Decklink Mini Monitor 4K HDMI 10-bit and Eizo

PostFri Aug 10, 2018 12:47 pm

Our setup for the past few years (a technically successful solution) is to use BMD's 12G Decklink SDI 4K Pro with SDI #1 going direct to our calibrated 10bit 4K Sony X9005B 'client' TV via an SDI>HDMI 2 converter. We Grade on BenQ's venerable 10bit 24" IPS PG2401PT which is hardware calibrated for REC.709. This Display shows our Resolve 4K Timelime hardware down-scaled to HD @ RGB 4:4:4 from the Decklink Pro's SDI #2 output which we route through a BMD HD-Link SDI>Display Port converter.

This versatile setup (especially with the HD-Link's six channel SDI analogue Audio de-embedding feature) has proved to be an economical and very profitable long term 4K solution.
4K Post Studio, Freelance Filmmaker, Media Writer
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12G SDI Decklink 4K Pro/Calibrated 10bit IPS SDI Monitor
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Re: Decklink Mini Monitor 4K HDMI 10-bit and Eizo

PostFri Aug 10, 2018 3:17 pm

I think for me the main reason to have 60fps is if you use the monitor for work as well. For example moving the mouse at 30Hz will not be that smooth. For playback it should not matter.

Has anyone compared or seen the new 319 and compared it with 318.
What I really like with the Eizo 318 is that it has much deeper blacks than any other monitor I have seen and still have even distribution of colors. Most of the monitors around 1400 pounds seems to be quite unreliable according to reviews I have read.

Best wishes,
Andreas
Consulting Lead VFX Microsoft Games/Rare Ltd
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Ian Henderson

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Re: Decklink Mini Monitor 4K HDMI 10-bit and Eizo

PostFri Aug 10, 2018 3:42 pm

Craig Marshall wrote:Our setup for the past few years (a technically successful solution) is to use BMD's 12G Decklink SDI 4K Pro with SDI #1 going direct to our calibrated 10bit 4K Sony X9005B 'client' TV via an SDI>HDMI 2 converter. We Grade on BenQ's venerable 10bit 24" IPS PG2401PT which is hardware calibrated for REC.709. This Display shows our Resolve 4K Timelime hardware down-scaled to HD @ RGB 4:4:4 from the Decklink Pro's SDI #2 output which we route through a BMD HD-Link SDI>Display Port converter.

This versatile setup (especially with the HD-Link's six channel SDI analogue Audio de-embedding feature) has proved to be an economical and very profitable long term 4K solution.


From what I understand the SDI>DisplayPort is no longer available? Those additional boxes add quite a lot to the price but I guess add a lot of functionality too. The colour specialists seem to look down on the Benq/Dell/LG class of computer monitors, but I guess around $700-1500 they are the best option.
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Re: Decklink Mini Monitor 4K HDMI 10-bit and Eizo

PostFri Aug 10, 2018 4:47 pm

AndreasOberg wrote:I think for me the main reason to have 60fps is if you use the monitor for work as well. For example moving the mouse at 30Hz will not be that smooth. For playback it should not matter.

Has anyone compared or seen the new 319 and compared it with 318.
What I really like with the Eizo 318 is that it has much deeper blacks than any other monitor I have seen and still have even distribution of colors. Most of the monitors around 1400 pounds seems to be quite unreliable according to reviews I have read.

Best wishes,
Andreas


For 60Hz you have DP port :)

Yes, Eizo (also NEC, I still prefer Eizo though) are superior to most other monitors. They cost more, but they do have much better uniformity, electronics, coating etc. They are based on same panels as most other good monitors (Eizo doesn't make own panels), but it doesn't mean they are the same as eg. LG. Good panel is just start- then there is much more to it.
Last edited by Andrew Kolakowski on Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Decklink Mini Monitor 4K HDMI 10-bit and Eizo

PostFri Aug 10, 2018 4:52 pm

Ian Henderson wrote:
From what I understand the SDI>DisplayPort is no longer available? Those additional boxes add quite a lot to the price but I guess add a lot of functionality too. The colour specialists seem to look down on the Benq/Dell/LG class of computer monitors, but I guess around $700-1500 they are the best option.


There are not many SDI<->DP 1.2 converters at all. Apantac which supports 4x 3GSDI to DP 1.2 is almost 2K$.

Benq/Dell/LG those are rather mid range monitors. If you looking at Rec.709 gamut then some model are not bad at all. You always have to look at video feature though- support for multi refresh rate etc.

Pro 4K ones are of course overpriced, but because there is nothing else on the market it means they can be overpriced. Most of them have pricing not based on development costs etc., but based on what competition costs. I know this for fact :D
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Craig Marshall

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Re: Decklink Mini Monitor 4K HDMI 10-bit and Eizo

PostFri Aug 10, 2018 9:35 pm

The discontinued PG2401PT (still sourced for around US$800) is a respectable 10bit IPS monitor with an excellent review on Prad.de and the only BenQ I would consider. (lookout for the new 4K Pxx 271) The 2401 is a Certified Photo soft-proofing monitor with a native HD display (16:10 with 1:1) and GB-r LED backlighting but you are correct in that the next step up is a Flanders.

PS: We found HDMI to be substandard and fraught with issues so we went SDI all the way. We bought all the SDI converters second hand on line at a considerable saving. To avoid all the fussing, just buy a Flanders. The 8bit CM240 is more than adequate and is properly factory calibrated.
4K Post Studio, Freelance Filmmaker, Media Writer
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Decklink Mini Monitor 4K HDMI 10-bit and Eizo

PostFri Aug 10, 2018 10:24 pm

Nothing wrong with HDMI assuming it works properly (same end result as with SDI at the end as both are digital signals). I never had a single problem with AJA HDMI converters. All those HDMI issues seems to be almost like BM "feature" :)
It may require bit more "verification", but cost are also way lower.
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Ian Henderson

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Re: Decklink Mini Monitor 4K HDMI 10-bit and Eizo

PostSun Aug 12, 2018 11:02 am

Craig Marshall wrote:To avoid all the fussing, just buy a Flanders. The 8bit CM240 is more than adequate and is properly factory calibrated.


Do you mean BM240? There’s no C range any more (I think superseded by the D range?).

BM240 is $2995 And another $1000 buys 10 bit, which is probably worth it.
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Decklink Mini Monitor 4K HDMI 10-bit and Eizo

PostSun Aug 12, 2018 11:51 am

I would 10x prefer Eizo CG318 (specially if you can get it for good price) over BM240. BM240 has rather average panel (doesn't even properly cover Rec.709 based on chart). It's good only if you need SDI, and all audio meters, markers etc.
DM240 is more like it- looks like good panel, price is also good- just HD though.
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Re: Decklink Mini Monitor 4K HDMI 10-bit and Eizo

PostSun Aug 12, 2018 9:12 pm

The thing about buying a Flanders, irrespective of the perceived quality of the panel, is Calibration certainty. You can be sure it is properly setup and your colours are accurate. You will have a reliable grading reference and your clients can be sure what they are paying you for is accurate. If you have the capacity to return it to the factory for routine Calibration, this saves you buying expensive probes and calibration software then spending unbillable time becoming a calibration expert. A reliable reference monitor, like an expensive lens, is a considered long term investment.

Another popular and potentially cost effective alternative is using the latest generation LG OLED 4K TVs via a LUT box and is an affordable option for those needing to grade native 4K at up to 60P. The BMD Teranex 12G SDI to HDMI converter will take 3D Luts for accurate calibration. For more info on theses alternatives, research the Pro Colorist Forum: http://www.LiftGammaGain.com
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Decklink Mini Monitor 4K HDMI 10-bit and Eizo

PostSun Aug 12, 2018 11:35 pm

All what you need is proper calibration- as long as monitor is decent it doesn't matter if it's Eizo or Flanders or Sony etc. When it comes to Rec.709 all good monitors can achieve decent accuracy today.
If BM420 can't even cover in 100% Rec.709 gamut then calibration won't help.
Eizo uses internally 16bit LUTs (or even 24bit LUTs on some models). As far as I know there are not many devices with such a precise LUTs.
There are reports that people prefer new Eizo HDR Prominence over Sony BVM-X300, because it has no ABL, cleaner near blacks. It's an LCD panel with every pixel backlit- no zoning, glowing etc. Netflix and Dolby approved it. Eizo monitors are much better than you may think, they just miss broadcast features (SDI, meters, etc), but this is not an issue if you are not big studio. CG318/19X are very good compromise for 4K grading if you want to have good reference, but can't justify 20K+ monitors.

http://philtechnicalblog.blogspot.com/2 ... -2018.html
https://cml.news/g/cml-raw-log-hdr/topi ... 0,19743790

New FSI HDR is also good as it uses very new panel.
And as for an interesting fact:

"Panasonic actually developed two 31" 4K HDR panels, one with per-pixel back light control that reaches 1000nit peak luminance (used by EIZO CG3145), one with 2040 individually addressable LED back light units that reaches 2000nit peak luminance (used by TV Logic and FSI XM31K)."

Eizo also stated that they didn't want to use "other panel" as they found zoning control to distract actual image (which we know well from old Dolby monitor).

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