RCM Guidance

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Jim Simon

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RCM Guidance

PostMon Aug 20, 2018 4:16 pm

I'll admit up front, this question is kind of a cheat and RTFM would not be an unreasonable answer.

But the M is 2600 pages! Until I get through it, I was hoping for a little guidance on the "proper" use of Resolve Color Management.

I shoot RAW with the Pocket, and leave the cDNG RAW settings to BMD Film.

I've been using the BMD Film to Rec 709 LUT applied as 3D Output and and I like the results. But I understand RCM may be...more accurate/better.

If I set the Input Color Space to Bypass, Timeline to BMD Film and Output to Rec 709 I get one result.

If I set Input Color Space to BMD Film, Timeline to Rec 709 and Output to Bypass, I get a different result.

I don't understand why. Is there a simple explanation? Is one more "correct" than the other?
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rick.lang

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Re: RCM Guidance

PostMon Aug 20, 2018 6:39 pm

Which works best for you? My guess is BMDfilm, bypass, Rec.709. But I use ACES.


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JPOwens

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Re: RCM Guidance

PostMon Aug 20, 2018 6:51 pm

Jim Simon wrote: Is there a simple explanation? Is one more "correct" than the other?


LUTs are interpolations based on a point-to-point colour cube, so it is essentially a discrete transform for particular values. It's not that different from a color correction, except a bit coarse.

Color Management with Input Transforms (RCM or ACES) "does the math" up front with a smoothly re-calculated value corresponding to your display-referenced output colorspace. This is the most rudimentary conceptualization of what ACES does as a fundamental process.

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Igor Riđanović

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Re: RCM Guidance

PostMon Aug 20, 2018 11:07 pm

Jim Simon wrote:
If I set the Input Color Space to Bypass, Timeline to BMD Film and Output to Rec 709 I get one result.

If I set Input Color Space to BMD Film, Timeline to Rec 709 and Output to Bypass, I get a different result.

I don't understand why. Is there a simple explanation? Is one more "correct" than the other?


The results are different by design in your two test cases. That's the simple explanation.

The input color space is where tell Resolve the color space of all of your source material. The timeline color space is where you tell Resolve how to scale the control parameters relative to the color space and gamma. The output color space is where you tell Resolve how to transform the values for your display device or for your desired file delivery color space.

You'd probably want to set the input to BMD Film, and set the timeline and output color spaces to Rec. 709 in your case.

RCM is well documented in the manual and it's generally similar to most other color management systems.
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Brad Hurley

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Re: RCM Guidance

PostMon Aug 20, 2018 11:46 pm

Igor Riđanović wrote:[
RCM is well documented in the manual and it's generally similar to most other color management systems.


It's well documented, but the thing I've always found confusing is that there's no guidance anywhere that I've been able to find on what your input color space should be. The camera manuals for BMD's cinema cameras don't tell you (at least not the manuals for the Pocket and Micro Cinema Camera), nor does the Resolve manual tell you. I've always chosen BMD film, but only as a lucky guess since it seemed most likely to be right. There are about 65 options to choose from, including a bunch of BMD film 4K options that will probably be bewildering to people when they start working with footage from the new Pocket 4K camera.

Is there a table somewhere that provides guidance on input color space you should choose for various cameras and record settings (e.g., BMD cameras recording in "film" mode versus "video" mode).
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Igor Riđanović

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Re: RCM Guidance

PostTue Aug 21, 2018 4:57 am

I can't comment on the specific camera. I've only worked with the first generation when they first came out. Generally the camera department should communicate the correct setting to the post.
Brad Hurley wrote:
Igor Riđanović wrote:[
RCM is well documented in the manual and it's generally similar to most other color management systems.


It's well documented, but the thing I've always found confusing is that there's no guidance anywhere that I've been able to find on what your input color space should be. The camera manuals for BMD's cinema cameras don't tell you (at least not the manuals for the Pocket and Micro Cinema Camera), nor does the Resolve manual tell you. I've always chosen BMD film, but only as a lucky guess since it seemed most likely to be right. There are about 65 options to choose from, including a bunch of BMD film 4K options that will probably be bewildering to people when they start working with footage from the new Pocket 4K camera.

Is there a table somewhere that provides guidance on input color space you should choose for various cameras and record settings (e.g., BMD cameras recording in "film" mode versus "video" mode).


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Hendrik Proosa

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Re: RCM Guidance

PostTue Aug 21, 2018 5:23 am

If you get different result with same grade, it is expected. But if you get difference with no grade applied... not expected, because the end to end transform chain in both cases is exactly the same. Only difference is the state of image data when grading operations are applied. In first case it is BMD Film, in another, rec709.

If it is by design, I'm sure someone can elaborate more on how exactly this design is implemented and what is happening.
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Dermot Shane

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Re: RCM Guidance

PostTue Aug 21, 2018 5:34 am

one thing that is NOT a variable in any color managed pipeline is matching your output transform to your monitor

if useing a 709 monitor, then use a 709 output transform
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Cary Knoop

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Re: RCM Guidance

PostTue Aug 21, 2018 6:22 am

Jim Simon wrote:If I set the Input Color Space to Bypass, Timeline to BMD Film and Output to Rec 709 I get one result.

If I set Input Color Space to BMD Film, Timeline to Rec 709 and Output to Bypass, I get a different result.

I don't understand why. Is there a simple explanation? Is one more "correct" than the other?

The input color space is not used for raw footage, instead, for RCM the raw footage is directly mapped to the timeline color space.

For video (i.e. non-raw footage) if an input color space is defined the chosen timeline color space does not make any change to the look of the footage (it only influences how the controls work).

But that is not the case for raw input, the timeline color space does matter because the raw footage is directly mapped to the timeline color space.

You can easily verify that by using a raw file in RCM where the project level input color space is bypass and the output color space is for instance Rec.709. Changing the timeline color space will change the look of your footage.
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Hendrik Proosa

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Re: RCM Guidance

PostTue Aug 21, 2018 7:36 am

Cary Knoop wrote:For video (i.e. non-raw footage) if an input color space is defined the chosen timeline color space does not make any change to the look of the footage (it only influences how the controls work).

This is not entirely true. Timeline colorspace has no visible impact (without any grade applied) only when output color space is set. And it is expected because image is transformed from timeline space to output space and changing timeline space does not and should not change the result if these transforms are correct. But when output space is set to bypass, timeline colorspace is effectively the output space and thus changing it will change the result, as expected. Timeline color space does not influence how the controls work (although it might be interpreted as such), controls work the same numerically. But if you apply the same operations on image in different state (which is what timeline colorspace sets), you get different results.

Coming back to original question, these two sets of settings produce the same result for me with no grade applied. With grade they are different as expected, due to reasons outlined before.

What is happening is that in case 1, image is debayered and transformed to BMD Film. As timeline space is the same, no additional transforms are being applied. All grading operations are applied on image in BMD Film state. In the end, transform BMD Film > rec709 is applied. So image data goes through transforms BMD Film > rec709.

In case 2, image starts its journey after debayer as BMD Film. It is then transformed to timeline colorspace: BMD Film > rec709. Grading operations are applied. But as output is set to bypass, image is directly output without any additional transforms. So image data again goes through BMD Film > rec709. Difference between case 1 and case 2 is where the grading operations are done. Case 1: BMD Film > GRADE > rec709; case 2: BMD Film > rec709 > GRADE.
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Jim Simon

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Re: RCM Guidance

PostWed Aug 22, 2018 11:03 pm

Hendrik Proosa wrote:if you get difference with no grade applied... not expected.


That's what I thought as well. But there is a difference on the original, ungraded clip. And I didn't understand why.
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Jim Simon

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Re: RCM Guidance

PostWed Aug 22, 2018 11:05 pm

Cary Knoop wrote:The input color space is not used for raw footage


That doesn't appear to be the case. When I change it from BMD Film to Bypass, things change.
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Jim Simon

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Re: RCM Guidance

PostWed Aug 22, 2018 11:08 pm

Hendrik Proosa wrote:Coming back to original question, these two sets of settings produce the same result for me with no grade applied.


I get different results, both visually and in the scopes.
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Jim Simon

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Re: RCM Guidance

PostWed Aug 22, 2018 11:12 pm

Hendrik Proosa wrote:Case 1: BMD Film > GRADE > rec709; case 2: BMD Film > rec709 > GRADE.


That's helpful. Thank you.

But it still begs the question, why different results on a cDNG clip with no grade applied?
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John Paines

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Re: RCM Guidance

PostWed Aug 22, 2018 11:39 pm

I *think* that in first instance, what you're working with in the timeline is log and CC controls will respond as they do with log. In the second, you're working in rec. 709 on the timeline, which will respond differently.
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Jim Simon

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Re: RCM Guidance

PostThu Aug 23, 2018 2:49 pm

But the image looks different, both visually and in the scopes, without making any adjustments at all.

So something is clearly different about the processing between the two scenarios. I just don't understand what or why? I was hoping someone here did.
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Re: RCM Guidance

PostThu Aug 23, 2018 2:56 pm

Can one assume you've set the input color space for each raw clip in the media pool?
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Jim Simon

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Re: RCM Guidance

PostThu Aug 23, 2018 4:19 pm

Yes.
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John Paines

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Re: RCM Guidance

PostThu Aug 23, 2018 4:21 pm

Set to what?

Jim Simon wrote:But the image looks different, both visually and in the scopes, without making any adjustments at all.

So something is clearly different about the processing between the two scenarios. I just don't understand what or why?


Because in the first instance, it's being interpreted as log on the timeline and in the second, as rec. 709. If there was no difference, what would be the point of the different settings? The conversion to 709 is happening at different points in the chain in the two scenarios, and with different results. You could grade either to look like the other, since they're both working with the same data.
Last edited by John Paines on Thu Aug 23, 2018 4:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Cary Knoop

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Re: RCM Guidance

PostThu Aug 23, 2018 4:36 pm

First of all, I would not confuse things by using bypass.

I just tested this with a cDNG video:

Input color space: Rec709
Timeline color space: BM Film
Output color space: Rec709

Changing the timeline color space to Rec709 or anything else did make no difference at all.

Also if you use RCM you should not tinker with the Colorspace/Gamma settings in the Camera Raw settings.
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John Paines

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Re: RCM Guidance

PostThu Aug 23, 2018 4:39 pm

Cary Knoop wrote:Also if you use RCM you should not tinker with the Colorspace/Gamma settings in the Camera Raw settings.


It's not the camera raw settings. It's in the media pool (input color space). If you don't set this value, RCM won't work. That's probably why you're getting identical results.
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Cary Knoop

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Re: RCM Guidance

PostThu Aug 23, 2018 6:30 pm

John Paines wrote:
Cary Knoop wrote:Also if you use RCM you should not tinker with the Colorspace/Gamma settings in the Camera Raw settings.


It's not the camera raw settings. It's in the media pool (input color space). If you don't set this value, RCM won't work. That's probably why you're getting identical results.

That's not used either, with RCM raw is directly mapped to the timeline color space.

raw-color-space.jpg
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Jim Simon

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Re: RCM Guidance

PostThu Aug 23, 2018 6:47 pm

John Paines wrote:The conversion to 709 is happening at different points in the chain


I wouldn't expect that alone to produce different results, though. It's the same conversion (or...it seems like it should be the same).
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John Paines

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Re: RCM Guidance

PostThu Aug 23, 2018 7:17 pm

Cary Knoop wrote:[That's not used either, with RCM raw is directly mapped to the timeline color space.

raw-color-space.jpg


The manual there is referring to the raw tab in the Color page. For RCM to work, you still need to assign an input color value to the debayered clips, just as do with log or video-range clips. This is done in the Media Pool.

That's my understanding, anyway. If you don't select an input color value, RCM doesn't work.
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John Paines

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Re: RCM Guidance

PostThu Aug 23, 2018 8:13 pm

Jim Simon wrote:
John Paines wrote:I wouldn't expect that alone to produce different results, though. It's the same conversion (or...it seems like it should be the same).


When you set RCM to monitor at rec. 709 and timeline color space is BMD Film, no conversion has taken place. It's log that's monitored via rec. 709, unless/until you introduce color correction to manually normalize the footage to rec 709 color space.

If you're seeking to replicate the process of introducing the BMD Film v2 3D Lut via RCM, I think you want to set input color to bmd film in the Media Pool. Then, in color management, input would be BMD film, timeline color space rec 709 2.4, and monitor space rec. 709 2.4.
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Hendrik Proosa

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Re: RCM Guidance

PostFri Aug 24, 2018 6:13 am

John Paines wrote:When you set RCM to monitor at rec. 709 and timeline color space is BMD Film, no conversion has taken place. It's log that's monitored via rec. 709, unless/until you introduce color correction to manually normalize the footage to rec 709 color space.

If timeline colorspace differs from output space, there IS conversion taking place (unless you mean conversion before applying grades and transforming for output/view). And it is easily observed by setting output to bypass (meaning no conversion): will you get the same image as before? Log monitored via rec709 is exactly this, log data is correctly transformed to look correct (not "flat") on rec709 monitor. "Log look" is just wrong monitoring when you look at log data on rec709 without any transforms and I'm not getting it with BMD Film timeline and rec709 output. I do get the beloved look when timeline is BMD Film and output is bypass, just as when not using RCM and debayering the image to BMD Film.

Jim Simon wrote:But the image looks different, both visually and in the scopes, without making any adjustments at all.

So something is clearly different about the processing between the two scenarios. I just don't understand what or why? I was hoping someone here did.

Any chance to start fresh and capture your screen to see what and how you set up exactly? Because with no grades applied, these two scenarios should produce the same result unless I'm completely not getting the logic of how Resolve handles color (I wouldn't be surprised).
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John Paines

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Re: RCM Guidance

PostFri Aug 24, 2018 12:47 pm

Okay, I had another look. There is no difference between

1) Bypass -- BMD Film -- Rec 709 2.4

and

2) BMD Film -- Rec 709 2.4 -- Bypass

indicating that in both cases, log is being converted to rec. 709 color space.

Note that "bypass" is not a null value. When used in RCM, it defaults to the timeline color space.
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Jim Simon

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Re: RCM Guidance

PostFri Aug 24, 2018 6:16 pm

John Paines wrote:There is no difference between

1) Bypass -- BMD Film -- Rec 709 2.4

and

2) BMD Film -- Rec 709 2.4 -- Bypass



I am seeing a difference in the highlight handling. In the first, highlights are in range. In the second, they're clipped.
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Cary Knoop

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Re: RCM Guidance

PostFri Aug 24, 2018 6:34 pm

Nothing gets clipped, and as I wrote before, using bypass tremendously confuses the issue.
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Re: RCM Guidance

PostFri Aug 24, 2018 6:49 pm

Jim Simon wrote:I am seeing a difference in the highlight handling. In the first, highlights are in range. In the second, they're clipped.


I give up on this one. Every time I try it, I seem to get a different result. Now I'm seeing the difference you report. In any event, the higher levels on the waveform seen [sometimes] in the second method is not actual clipping -- you can recover those highlights, to the extent the camera didn't clip them.

Could be the difference is just an order of operations thing or (as I originally thought), the Bypass-BMD Film-Rec 709 arrangement is the wrong way to normalize log footage.
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Cary Knoop

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Re: RCM Guidance

PostFri Aug 24, 2018 7:11 pm

A high dynamic range to the limited Rec709 transformation showing out of range values is normal, expected behavior, it is not clipping.
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Jim Simon

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Re: RCM Guidance

PostFri Aug 24, 2018 8:33 pm

Yes, it's not actually clipping. The values can be brought back down. But with one method they need to be, with the other they don't. I was wondering why?

This isn't HDR footage. It's BMD Film from the Pocket.
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Cary Knoop

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Re: RCM Guidance

PostFri Aug 24, 2018 10:19 pm

Jim Simon wrote:This isn't HDR footage. It's BMD Film from the Pocket.

This is still a high(er) dynamic range than Rec709.
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Jim Simon

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Re: RCM Guidance

PostSun Aug 26, 2018 2:05 pm

Well, I've tested out ACES, and I do like the results.

Thanks everyone.
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John Paines

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Re: RCM Guidance

PostSun Aug 26, 2018 3:09 pm

Based on a reading of the manual, I note with modesty that I think my first explanation was the correct one: the choice of timeline color space determines how Resolve color grading controls operate on the media. Choosing BMD FIlm gives a log space to work in, and the footage responds to the controls accordingly. The footage may not look like log, but that's only because the output is getting a rec. 709 transform. Similarly, choose rec. 709 for the timeline, and the footage responds to CC as rec. 709 would. Any difference in mapping of the footage between the two modes doesn't reflect any actual clipping.

The manual reads:

This means that, as a colorist, you can set the Timeline Coilor Space that you're working in to whatever your prefer. If you prefer grading log media because you like the way the grading controls behave in that color space, you can set the Time Color Space in the Color Management panel of the Project Settings to any of the available log formats.... If you instead prefer grading in the Rec. 709 color space because you're more comfortable with how the controls feel in that color space, you can choose that instead. Whatever Timeline Color Space you assign is that all source clips will be transformed to for purposes of making grading adjustments in the Color page, so you can make this choice using a single setting.

As for ACES -- you'll find religious devotees, but for anything other than a professional cinema workflow, it's far from clear that it offers any advantage over RCM.
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Hendrik Proosa

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Re: RCM Guidance

PostSun Aug 26, 2018 6:31 pm

John Paines wrote:...the choice of timeline color space determines how Resolve color grading controls operate on the media. Choosing BMD FIlm gives a log space to work in, and the footage responds to the controls accordingly. The footage may not look like log, but that's only because the output is getting a rec. 709 transform. Similarly, choose rec. 709 for the timeline, and the footage responds to CC as rec. 709 would. Any difference in mapping of the footage between the two modes doesn't reflect any actual clipping.

Ofcourse, this is the whole meaning of timeline space. But technically, controls operate the same, they don't "know" about the space one bit. Doing a lift by value x does exactly the same math on rec709 timeline as on bmd film timeline. The "response" is different because the data values grading ops are applied to, are totally different. But equations are the same. I think it is important to make this distinction because otherwise one might start asking why controls that magically "respond" according to timeline space, mess everything up with some spaces, shouldn't they "respond" better? But they can't because there is no smartness in controls.
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Jim Simon

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Re: RCM Guidance

PostMon Aug 27, 2018 2:32 pm

John Paines wrote:for anything other than a professional cinema workflow, it's far from clear that [ACES] offers any advantage over RCM.


It doesn't 'clip' my highlights. :D
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Re: RCM Guidance

PostMon Aug 27, 2018 3:45 pm

Jim Simon wrote:It doesn't 'clip' my highlights. :D


It's true RCM initially maps BMPCC [recoverable] highlights outside broadcast range, unlike ACES, but clips in RCM appear to be much more adjustable than in ACES.

Look at what you can do with highlights and shadows in RCM versus ACES. In ACES, they just won't move after a certain point -- they flatten. In RCM, they remain flexible. Am not a colorist by trade, so I won't draw any further conclusions. But given the choice, I can't see any reason to prefer ACES to RCM.
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Jim Simon

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Re: RCM Guidance

PostMon Aug 27, 2018 11:11 pm

John Paines wrote:In ACES, they just won't move after a certain point -- they flatten. In RCM, they remain flexible.


I did notice that as well. Thought it was odd. But I still prefer the results of ACES for my work. And until I learn more, it just seems the simpler path.
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Cary Knoop

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Re: RCM Guidance

PostTue Aug 28, 2018 2:49 am

John Paines wrote:
Jim Simon wrote:It doesn't 'clip' my highlights. :D


It's true RCM initially maps BMPCC [recoverable] highlights outside broadcast range, unlike ACES, but clips in RCM appear to be much more adjustable than in ACES.

Look at what you can do with highlights and shadows in RCM versus ACES. In ACES, they just won't move after a certain point -- they flatten. In RCM, they remain flexible. Am not a colorist by trade, so I won't draw any further conclusions. But given the choice, I can't see any reason to prefer ACES to RCM.

Exactly right, ACES is kind of "look", but a great look nevertheless!

The other thing is that is very important for ACES is right exposure. If you work on footage with tinckered cameras (ETTR, "special" settings, etc) all the ACES advantages go away very quickly.

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