Why Are Most New Edit Features Only in the Cut Page?

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VioletWolf

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Re: Why Are Most New Edit Features Only in the Cut Page?

PostSun Apr 14, 2019 6:01 pm

.

Blackmagic official statements on the Cut Page: (paraphrased)

"We created the Cut Page as a place to try new ideas and play with them without messing up the Edit Page for users".

As we move forward, and with input from users, we can foresee features from the Cut Page moving into the Edit Page and the other direction as well".

"We really look forward to having these conversations with our users".

Patience
Last edited by VioletWolf on Sun Apr 14, 2019 6:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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VioletWolf

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Re: Why Are Most New Edit Features Only in the Cut Page?

PostSun Apr 14, 2019 6:03 pm

Source of the information above: (Starts at 1:14:20)
Worth watching till the end.

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Mark Grgurev

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Re: Why Are Most New Edit Features Only in the Cut Page?

PostSun Apr 14, 2019 8:01 pm

VioletWolf wrote:Source of the information above: (Starts at 1:14:20)
Worth watching till the end.



VioletWolf wrote:.

Blackmagic official statements on the Cut Page: (paraphrased)

"We created the Cut Page as a place to try new ideas and play with them without messing up the Edit Page for users".

As we move forward, and with input from users, we can foresee features from the Cut Page moving into the Edit Page and the other direction as well".


Great find! I actually watched that video before but didn't take note of him saying that. I'm fine with the Cut page existing as a page where BMD experiments with features. However, ones that can be added to the Edit page without any problem like Clip View and Source Tape should be brought over before Resolve 16 is finalized. I would say the same applies to the in-viewer crop and transform features.

However, another thing that hear Grant say multiple times was that they're having some trouble finalizing the Cut page and that it's only half finished. That feels kind of obvious given the existence of things like the Effects and Titles panels existing without any controls for them. I think the reason they're having trouble is because the scope of the Cut page is too specific.

The Cut page assumes a certain timeline length. Others have already pointed out that the mini-timeline might not really be useable past a certain timeline length, but what if it's only 30 seconds to a minute? If you were editing that in the Edit page, you can set your zoom range to some place comfortable and still have very little need to scroll. In the Cut page, you could conceivably edit that using only the mini-timeline. In that scenario, the existence of an ever-present mini-timeline and fixed-zoomed-in timeline might be considered a waste of space more than a time saver. In this sense, the Cut page has a minimum and maximum length that it really excels at.

The Cut page assumes one audio track for every video track so if you're dragging in clips that have multiple tracks, then the Cut timeline is invisibly overwrites audio tracks. So the Cut page can only quickly put together timelines with only one audio track for each video track. Otherwise whatever gains you may get from throwing stuff together in the Cut page might be undone when you need to clean it up in the Edit page.

I feel like adding Effects and Titles is outside the Cut page's scope because all these things have potential to slow down playback speed enough to impact edit speed. They feel more like finishing touches.

So what it they add the Inspector so you can change Effect and Title settings? What if they added the ability to collapse the mini-timeline? What if they added the ability to set the zoom of the large timeline? What it they exposed what's happening with your clip audio tracks? Don't all of these things make significant steps towards making the Clip page work like the Edit page anyway?

Even if they want the Cut page so they can experiment with new features, software is more malleable than that. You don't have to make such big divisions like putting it into another page.
The Clip page's timeline could be implemented as a kind of audio-blind view to the Edit page's timeline, it's click and drag behavior could be allocated to a Smart Edit tool, and both would enable an intelligent placement of audio tracks. Users can then opt of these features simply by not using them.

VioletWolf wrote:"We really look forward to having these conversations with our users".

Patience


That's kind of what I'm trying to do lol The issue is that I have no idea if Blackmagic has even seen this topic so I don't know if this conversation is getting to them. The best we can hope to do is express our opinions, have these conversation among other users, keep these discussions alive, and hope that Blackmagic sees them.

However, in order to be of any use to Blackmagic as feedback, people need to do more than just repeat what BMD's goals were for these features and instead bring up the specific benefits and drawbacks that we see.
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Re: Why Are Most New Edit Features Only in the Cut Page?

PostSun Apr 14, 2019 9:52 pm

I think we'll see the BM team back here after the wrap-up of NAB and some time to de-jet-lag. Hopefully they'll set up sub-forums for these discussions (Bug forum & Cut Page forum please) because the present format is definitely not working lol.

Regarding multiple tracks on Cut Page. It's simply not intended for that. It's for doing quick linear edits like news, weddings, vlogs etc. Single track stuff, with maybe a cutaway track above.

Multi-track (music videos, films, etc.) is for the edit page.

And they will be bringing tools in both directions from Cut & Edit pages. This is going to take time
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Re: Why Are Most New Edit Features Only in the Cut Page?

PostSun Apr 14, 2019 10:42 pm

VioletWolf wrote:I think we'll see the BM team back here after the wrap-up of NAB and some time to de-jet-lag. Hopefully they'll set up sub-forums for these discussions (Bug forum & Cut Page forum please) because the present format is definitely not working lol.

Agreed! lol It really begs for it's own sub-forum just like last time around.

VioletWolf wrote:Regarding multiple tracks on Cut Page. It's simply not intended for that. It's for doing quick linear edits like news, weddings, vlogs etc. Single track stuff, with maybe a cutaway track above.

Yes but even with two tracks, that's where footage with more than one audio track will have problems. I actually discovered that with footage that I was given from an event where the camera records 8 audio tracks. The same camera is used as b-cam for some weekly 1 minute videos that I edit. I also need titles for that.

I would imagine it's the length and release schedule that the cut page was made for.
VioletWolf wrote:Multi-track (music videos, films, etc.) is for the edit page.

Absolute, thought depending on the scene and music video, that Source Tape view would still be really useful.
VioletWolf wrote:And they will be bringing tools in both directions from Cut & Edit pages. This is going to take time

We'll see what shape it takes.
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Mark Grgurev

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Re: Why Are Most New Edit Features Only in the Cut Page?

PostTue Apr 16, 2019 5:10 pm

Can somebody move this to the Beta's sub-forum?
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Re: Why Are Most New Edit Features Only in the Cut Page?

PostMon Apr 22, 2019 1:16 pm

By the way, i just checked Vegas version 16 demo and it appears it has full support of ProRes mov files. Seems all problems where fixed. No need system wide quicktime installed. It can see 10 and 12 bit files as high bit depth files if project set to 32 bit. No any gamma shift in .mov files. It can also render to .mov files up to to ProRes444XQ. This makes me wonder why Davinci Resolve still can't do the same render to ProRes on Windows.
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Re: Why Are Most New Edit Features Only in the Cut Page?

PostMon Apr 22, 2019 6:40 pm

Dmitry Shijan wrote: This makes me wonder why Davinci Resolve still can't do the same render to ProRes on Windows.


Licensing costs would be my guess. I'm sure they have a hard time keeping that $300 price tag and must make concessions.

It would be nice as a paid extra though....
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Re: Why Are Most New Edit Features Only in the Cut Page?

PostTue Apr 23, 2019 4:55 pm

VioletWolf wrote: I'm sure they have a hard time keeping that $300 price tag and must make concessions.


This is the lowest price so far... keeping aside the FREE version.

Resolve started out in the $1K range (required another $400+ for the DnXHD Quicktime, not MXF-Atom codec), so really it's the price that is on the downward trend. The only mystery is when they will finally ask for an upgrade surcharge... many, many of us haven't paid for the next version since "8".
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Re: Why Are Most New Edit Features Only in the Cut Page?

PostSat Jul 20, 2019 6:28 am

When I saw Cut Page first time I say: "This is simply way for non editor like news reporter for quick edit their mini reports. It´s not bad idea.
It´s not for trying new ideas, for experimenting I can make duplicate of timeline.
I think Cut page is wrong way. They should improve Edit page, a lot stuffs missing like a choosing destination for copy/paste clip etc.
They should make just some customization of Edit page like switch of Mixer pannel and some other pannels and you get the same like a Cut Page.
Dual Timeline is fine, if you have space on monitor, possibility to switch off will be better.
Resize Timeline button is fine, I can enlarge Bin and Preview window. I missing it in Edit Page.

So, join this two pages together please:)
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Mark Grgurev

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Re: Why Are Most New Edit Features Only in the Cut Page?

PostTue Aug 13, 2019 10:55 pm

Tomato wrote:When I saw Cut Page first time I say: "This is simply way for non editor like news reporter for quick edit their mini reports. It´s not bad idea.
It´s not for trying new ideas, for experimenting I can make duplicate of timeline.
I think Cut page is wrong way. They should improve Edit page, a lot stuffs missing like a choosing destination for copy/paste clip etc.
They should make just some customization of Edit page like switch of Mixer pannel and some other pannels and you get the same like a Cut Page.
Dual Timeline is fine, if you have space on monitor, possibility to switch off will be better.
Resize Timeline button is fine, I can enlarge Bin and Preview window. I missing it in Edit Page.

So, join this two pages together please:)


I agree. The existence of the Cut page just holds back to the Edit page.
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Re: Why Are Most New Edit Features Only in the Cut Page?

PostWed Aug 14, 2019 7:36 am

Tomato, if you are using two monitors you can have a full screen Timeline and turn off the mixer and Edit Index. This is a grab of my two screen workspace (the right hand monitor is lower resolution than the left hence the size difference).
Attachments
Full Screen Timeline.JPG
Full Screen Timeline.JPG (405.96 KiB) Viewed 419 times
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Re: Why Are Most New Edit Features Only in the Cut Page?

PostWed Aug 14, 2019 11:46 am

JPOwens wrote:Resolve started out in the $1K range


Actually, before BMD bought Resolve, it was only offered in combination with dedicated hardware, and prices started at 6 figures...
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Re: Why Are Most New Edit Features Only in the Cut Page?

PostWed Aug 14, 2019 12:25 pm

Tomato wrote:a lot stuffs missing like a choosing destination for copy/paste clip etc.


you can already choose the destination. Wonder how many of the other 'missing features' are in fact already there...

Also, seems to me that there's too many things that are unique about the Cut page to suggest that you just allow it as various modifications in the Edit page.
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Re: Why Are Most New Edit Features Only in the Cut Page?

PostWed Aug 14, 2019 1:17 pm

Tom Early wrote:you can already choose the destination.


How, exactly?
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Re: Why Are Most New Edit Features Only in the Cut Page?

PostThu Aug 15, 2019 10:16 pm

Tom Early wrote:Also, seems to me that there's too many things that are unique about the Cut page to suggest that you just allow it as various modifications in the Edit page.


Not really. Most of the features and even UI decisions would map to the Edit page in a really straight forward manner without being optional. The only things that would need to be modified for the Edit page are timeline related.

For example, the Cut page has a behavior that makes it difficult to have gaps on track 1. This can be enabled as an optional behavior in the Edit page.

Similarly, the Cut page has tracks that auto-resize depending on how many tracks their are. That can simply be an option as well.

The mini-timeline could made collapsible and combined with a zoom-scroll bar. The Edit page has long needed to replace it's current method of zooming because it lacks precision so just a zoom-scroll bar would be a huge improvement. Obviously with any scroll bar, the scroll-bar's length is representative of the entire timeline, the position of it's thumb is representative of where you are in the timeline, and the length of the thumb is representative of how much of timeline you're currently looking at AKA the zoom level. That's why combined zoom-scroll bars work so well. By being able to expand it to a mini-timeline, you'd not only be able to edit with the mini-timeline but you'd now have a mini-map that would inform you ahead of time just how much you'd need to zoom and scroll the timeline which makes it faster and more precise. This also allows the mini-timeline to continue to the be useful in the event that the timeline becomes too long and the clips become too small. If somebody doesn't want to use it, they can just collapse it into a regular scroll-zoom bar. If the don't want to use it's zoom functionality, then they just won't use it.
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Re: Why Are Most New Edit Features Only in the Cut Page?

PostFri Aug 16, 2019 2:23 am

Jim Simon wrote:
Tom Early wrote:you can already choose the destination.


How, exactly?


Same way you select track destination in the Edit Page using the track header.
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