10 bit H.265 4K looks too colourful on Vimeo

Hi,
Has anyone found this?
I uploaded and Vimeo playback looks like I fell asleep on the saturation knob...

Have you graded it on Mac with P3 screen without "Use Mac color profile" option ticked in main settings?

I have a mini 4k out to an oled and calibrated Panasonic 1080. DCPs in the cinema seem to match my monitoring pretty comfortably. The 4k main10 and h.264 looked more “radiant” and saturated on Vimeo - same monitor switches between Apple TV 4 and Decklink card.

Hmmm...have you exported as Rec.709 ?

Hmmm...have you exported as Rec.709 ?

Exactly my thought!

The test is easy, load the Resolve encoded file back into a new not color managed project. If it looks the same as the original, it is not a Resolve problem.

...and if it is?

...and if it is?

Well, you can't expect anyone to be of any help if you do not provide an example.

If you make a little test and Dropbox the Resolve exported file and provide a link to the Vimeo upload, we can take a look at it and help out.

Or provide the details when you execute a MediaInfo or FFprobe on the exported file.

I can’t really share the Vimeo - it’s not mine.
It’s Saturday morning here - I could cut a segment and try your test but not until...the office wasn’t on my weekend list for the first time in a while.
The client has gone to premiere with the DCP which I am confident will project fine, based on previous experience.
If I have exported @709 and Vimeo is interpreting 2020...would that effectively be blowing the 709 up into 2020?

About 50% is 1080 - it was shot over several years.

If you exported Rec.709 there is almost no chance Vimeo would change it, but did you actually convert to Rec.709 (set project correctly)? It may be P3/2020 just flagged as Rec.709 and then it will be oversaturated.

I am quite certain that it was set at 709.
When I said cut a segment, I meant to say: to put up for scrutiny.
I used the Resolve Deliver H.265 Main10 Nvidia renderer.
I was using the Nvidia renderer for 1080 H.264 which didn’t seem to have the same saturation.

Just been looking at the Vimeo at home on 4K LCD via Apple TV 4
I went through all the settings for that input and turned off all the “enhancement” options and it looks much more like I would have expected. The panel reports that it’s getting BT 2020 but that is probably what AppleTV is delivering. AppleTV just says 4K.
I will review the settings on the 4K Oled for the Apple TV HDMI input in the suite.

I have attached a MediaInfo .txt - of the big file @ 3992x2160
and I have put a short piece on Vimeo @ 3840x2160
both rendered on Resolve using Nvidia H.265 Main10
I pulled the H.265 back into Resolve and did a side by side. It varies a little. The chroma on the H.265 is a little less! Well a little less fuzzy and the pictures a little more fuzzy: I read as compression.
Vimeo:


...wont let me upload Mediainfo as a .txt???
so .png image...

Original file from Vimeo has no color space flagging at all (neither on container nor on private steam headers), so this is not good.
Are you using Resolve 15?
You need to export intermediate file and then encode it with Hybrid etc. so file has correct flagging. Just remember to match what your export was- so either Rec.709 or Rec.2020 etc.
If encoder has no GUI to set it easily then quite often it allows you to specify as extra command, so just follow x265 guide:
https://x265.readthedocs.io/en/default/ ... -colorprim

and set colorprim, transfer, colormatrix accordingly to your export. Rec.2020 standard settings are 9-14-9, Rec.709 1-1-1. Such a files should be properly recognised by Viemeo or youtube. Those websites simply have no clue what your video is as there is no flagging at all (they will use guessing based on eg. resolution).

Are you sure that Vimeo does no re quiere you to use RGB for H.265?

I pulled the H.265 back into Resolve and did a side by side. It varies a little. The chroma on the H.265 is a little less! Well a little less fuzzy and the pictures a little more fuzzy: I read as compression.
Vimeo:

So then, what is the problem?

If you only view it through Vimeo differently that is not a Resolve problem but a system setup/viewing issue.

Are you sure that Vimeo does no re quiere you to use RGB for H.265?

Why RGB?
RGB is inefficent format for compression. No idea why Vimeo would ask for it.

just a random regular guy accidentally here.
On my computer screen the sample video could use some color vibrancy, of course this depends on the taste, but on my monitor it shows very natural, a tiny bit muted colors. Dell precision 5520, the 4k screen configuration. Calibrated with X-rite device.

So then, what is the problem?

If you only view it through Vimeo differently that is not a Resolve problem but a system setup/viewing issue.

My initial reaction was to suspect Vimeo of adding “enhancement”.
I thought I would canvas the forum to see if anyone could offer similar experience.
I re-evaluated and found that my own domestic panel setup was possibly the culprit.
I was never questioning Resolve.
The sort of responses I was hoping for was:
Oh no Vimeo never...
Or
Yes, Vimeo does unless you switch something somewhere

Thanks for all the thought on it.

Original file from Vimeo has no color space flagging at all (neither on container nor on private steam headers), so this is not good.
Are you using Resolve 15?
You need to export intermediate file and then encode it with Hybrid etc. so file has correct flagging. Just remember to match what your export was- so either Rec.709 or Rec.2020 etc.
If encoder has no GUI to set it easily then quite often it allows you to specify as extra command, so just follow x265 guide:
https://x265.readthedocs.io/en/default/ ... -colorprim

and set colorprim, transfer, colormatrix accordingly to your export. Rec.2020 standard settings are 9-14-9, Rec.709 1-1-1. Such a files should be properly recognised by Viemeo or youtube. Those websites simply have no clue what your video is as there is no flagging at all (they will use guessing based on eg. resolution).

Thanks for your continuing interest in this...

Resolve 15.3.1
RTX 2080 TI

So if I render an H.265 out of Resolve using the Nvidia render option (there doesn’t seem to be a native H.265 option) who is responsible for ticking the correct boxes in the header?
I hate intermediate renders as they take time and real estate.
Hybrid? Is that an engine like Handbrake?
I am not using Vimeo for critical evaluation but wasn’t expecting such chrominance.
It was the first 10 bit I have put up there.
Interesting to see that the H.264 UHD 8 bit was about 67gig but the H.265 10 bit was only about 11 gig.
I can not tell how much Vimeo governs the bitrate. I can certainly see when it is very low. At home we are only getting about 11 meg per sec. I tell you this because even at what looks to be highest quality stream, the subtitles have considerable artifacting around them.

My initial reaction was to suspect Vimeo of adding “enhancement”.
I thought I would canvas the forum to see if anyone could offer similar experience.

Obviously the quality of both Vimeo and YouTube is suboptimal but it has improved a lot with VP9/HEVC support. But color wise the encoders do not change anything at all in my experience.

There is though the problem with browsers not truthfully representing what is in the streams. There is the never-ending Rec.601/709 issue and also sometimes gamma problems.

With respect to rendering from Resolve. I have constant issues with rendering H.264 to a point where I avoid using it (things like encoding errors showing as macroblocks once in a blue moon, but enough to make it unreliable to me), it may be an incompatibility with DVIX or an encoding levels issues, whatever it is I would want to avoid it. H.265 is so-far working just fine, I have not encountered any issues. It is a hardware encoder so that means it is fast but not very efficient compression efficiency wise. But that's not a real issue if you upload to YouTube.

With respect to 10-bit uploads. Unless you make the source video available for download (Vimeo pay option) and your video is not HDR there is not much of a point. Obviously, for HDR you must provide 10-bit.

With respect to 10-bit uploads. Unless you make the source video available for download (Vimeo pay option) and your video is not HDR there is not much of a point. Obviously, for HDR you must provide 10-bit.

I do pay for Vimeo. It has become quite an important part of my work. I consult with the client at the outset and once I have a substantial grade done I start throwing it up to Vimeo. It is not for critical appraisal but a general sense of what I am doing. Most of my stuff is shot Doco style: no setups, no controlled lighting so it is a bit mire painstaking than drama. When I am happy they come in and watch it in my suite.
My perception of the UHD, both 8 bit and 10 bit, back from Vimeo was that it was more saturated than I was expecting/more saturated than I sense from 1080 uploads. Perhaps because the UHD is triggering something in my panels - I suspected Vimeo but seems I am wrong.

With respect to 10-bit uploads. Unless you make the source video available for download (Vimeo pay option) and your video is not HDR there is not much of a point. Obviously, for HDR you must provide 10-bit.

I do pay for Vimeo. It has become quite an important part of my work. I consult with the client at the outset and once I have a substantial grade done I start throwing it up to Vimeo. It is not for critical appraisal but a general sense of what I am doing. Most of my stuff is shot Doco style: no setups, no controlled lighting so it is a bit mire painstaking than drama. When I am happy they come in and watch it in my suite.
My perception of the UHD, both 8 bit and 10 bit, back from Vimeo was that it was more saturated than I was expecting/more saturated than I sense from 1080 uploads. Perhaps because the UHD is triggering something in my panels - I suspected Vimeo but seems I am wrong.

Frame.io might be your alternative, especially now that it is integrated with Resolve 16.

Thanks for your continuing interest in this...

Resolve 15.3.1
RTX 2080 TI

So if I render an H.265 out of Resolve using the Nvidia render option (there doesn’t seem to be a native H.265 option) who is responsible for ticking the correct boxes in the header?
I hate intermediate renders as they take time and real estate.
Hybrid? Is that an engine like Handbrake?
I am not using Vimeo for critical evaluation but wasn’t expecting such chrominance.
It was the first 10 bit I have put up there.
Interesting to see that the H.264 UHD 8 bit was about 67gig but the H.265 10 bit was only about 11 gig.
I can not tell how much Vimeo governs the bitrate. I can certainly see when it is very low. At home we are only getting about 11 meg per sec. I tell you this because even at what looks to be highest quality stream, the subtitles have considerable artifacting around them.

It's up to encoder to set correct flagging. It's rather bit important these days as we have more option than mainly just Rec.709.
If there is no flag then you simply have no idea what your video is and any needed conversion is pure guess based on other parameters like frame size.
For example on Mac when you watch mp4 which is not flagged at all how do you meant to adjust your video to P3 wide gamut screen? If your file is Rec.709 you need to properly process it to P3 gamut or it will look crazy saturated if passed as is.
Things get even more complicated as you have 2 places for flagging: container level and h264/5 private headers. Some app are happy with just container level, but others (like HDR TVs) need private headers flagging. If you made sure grading setup is correct you can't stop there. You need correct export as well otherwise it's bit wasted work.
Resolve 16 has flagging added, so it's all going in good direction. You have to export high bitrate though to compensate for weaker quality encoder encoder compared to x264/5.
I assume project took you some time, so even if exporting intermediate files is annoying it's not going to take days and it's worth the hassle. It's also import to understand how things work, so next time knowledge is already there.
Don't give up so easily
Yes, Hybrid is a GUI like Handbrake.
For Handbrake add extra options to make sure file is flagged:
colorprim=1:transfer=1:colormatrix=1
for Rec.709.
Also set framerate to Constant. Have no idea why it keeps defaulting to VBR fps.

just follow up:
I went through all the settings on 4K HDR panel at home and turned off all the nonsense.

I went through all the settings in the OLED panel in the suite and found a culprit: BT 2020 colour remaster>Max! Switched it off and it looks just like I graded.

Sorry Vimeo!

Today's consumer displays are pure evil...they do things you don't want them to...advice: run through the menus and if there is an "off" setting for an option, make sure you set it...